Sarcoids - Young gelding

Zebe said:
My vet also told me yesterday that they can come back with the Liverpool cream and can take 2 years to reappear. So nothing is reliable. So therefore no harm in trying other options. .
Click to expand...

Every harm in trying other options, possibly, sorry :( If you band one and it has a deep root which you do not kill, you may aggravate it into becoming very aggressive. It is believed that they can seed internal tumours, and if that's true then the horse could die.

In spite of the fact that I treat my own horses, I echo the concern people are expressing in this thread of trying to treat something that you do not fully understand, when you have been advised to get an expert opinion by your vet.
 
I understand what you are saying but that same vet told me that they could reappear with Liverpool cream so a cure is not certain! I will band with the help of someone very experienced and has been around animals 2 life times longer than my vet.

Doug English is a vet, a qualified well respected vet, he's had a lot of success with tumeric so if i take his advice and try tumeric why am i doing harm?! It really does seem like whatever you do is a gamble, there's no one correct answer. Every horse is different and needs the treatment that suits them, unfortunately it is us that have to make the choice from a minefield of choices, non of which are certain. If i was sick with lumps i wouldn't send photos to a Doctor to get a diagnosis! That would be insane. How can you diagnose a serious condition from photos. It makes me feel very uneasy. How is this one man sitting up in an office in liverpool controlling this whole operation, surely if he had animal welfare at heart he wouldn't be making such serious decisions via email photos!
 
I agree that adding turmeric to the diet won't do any harm. I think ycbm was more meaning playing around with treatments on the sarcoids themselves.

I totally understand your reservations about Knottenbelt diagnosing from pictures but be assured he is world renowned as the sarcoid specialist. Specialists from as far away as Australia send him pictures and he recommends the treatment. It is not the same as seeing them in person, but even from behind a computer he is the most qualified person to make recommendations. As mentioned before, because sarcoids have such long roots it can be impossible to kill them - and if there are cells left behind they will grow back, regardless of what was done to try fix them. The reason there are so many possible treatment options is because nothing works perfectly. Sarcoids are such a nasty thing and I really wish horses didn't get them!
 
Zebe said:
I understand what you are saying but that same vet told me that they could reappear with Liverpool cream so a cure is not certain! I will band with the help of someone very experienced and has been around animals 2 life times longer than my vet.

Doug English is a vet, a qualified well respected vet, he's had a lot of success with tumeric so if i take his advice and try tumeric why am i doing harm?! It really does seem like whatever you do is a gamble, there's no one correct answer. Every horse is different and needs the treatment that suits them, unfortunately it is us that have to make the choice from a minefield of choices, non of which are certain. If i was sick with lumps i wouldn't send photos to a Doctor to get a diagnosis! That would be insane. How can you diagnose a serious condition from photos. It makes me feel very uneasy. How is this one man sitting up in an office in liverpool controlling this whole operation, surely if he had animal welfare at heart he wouldn't be making such serious decisions via email photos!
Click to expand...

It makes me feel very uneasy ,but they do have a six million pound intensive care unit to pay for ,and getting it wrong can be very profitable.
The one thing about turmeric is the drug companies can not patent any thing that comes from nature.
Do you know you can put turmeric on sarcoids? ask Doug English
The photos that our vet sent to Knottenbelt looked like a chestnut on a horses leg she had a smaller one under her eye that was a nodule that went away with out treatment.
If you decide to use the the turmeric ,can you keep us posted please.
There is a product called Sarc x it contains turmeric and pepper I think it costs about £40.
 
Turmeric doesn't work on every horse so please don't pin your hopes on it. Neither does Sarc X, bloodroot, thuja, banding, toothpaste, surgical removal and freezing, or Liverpool cream. Believe me I have tried the lot. My youngster is about to undergo his 4th round of Liverpool cream as the previous 3 treatments over the past 2 years have either worked, not worked, or made them bigger depending on the type of sarcoid (he has mixed sarcoids). Banding caused both the sarcoids that it was used on to come back more aggressively. Thuja, turmeric (used topically with sudacreme, and mixed with oil and pepper in his food) had no effect, as did bloodroot which made them sore but didn't change them. The surgery and freezing looked successful except we suspect that there are tiny nodules growing again. Toothpaste, which was a prescription only variety, made a gooey mess and did nothing. Nothing at all with thuja.

However, that being said, his mother had 3 sarcoids round her udder at the same age which were treated with Liverpool cream successfully. I lost her years later aged 18 to a totally unrelated cause. So it can also work on some horses. Some horses are lucky and they just disappear over time, and some do go away with the more gentle treatments suggested above. Sadly mine is not one of them.

My youngster is now having one last treatment which will be laser on the ones suitable for it, and a different mix of Liverpool cream on the others. No idea what we will do if that is not successful.

ycbm and I have been in conversation about this, and the suggestion put forward may be my final last ditch attempt if this next round of treatment doesn't work.

Sarcoids are a nightmare that I sincerely wished I didn't have. Fortunately he appears to be blissfully unaware of my sleepless nights!
 
They really are foul things, and multiple ones are apparently a very big warning sign. Unfortunately I have one, also young, whose immune system just seems to have no defence to them. I've dealt with at least thirty around his sheath and belly, two on his face, and then noticed one tiny pimple on his inner thigh last week. I treated that in an area four inches across, because I know now how these things work, and he now has a circular patch of nodular sarcoid two inches wide falling off. All there was to show for that when I started was a flat pimple less than 2mm in size on a hairless piece of skin. Thankfully, I bought him knowing his issues and I've learnt a lot from him.

Yes, in my post above I was referring to topical treatment, I see no harm in feeding them what you like. OP, If you are going to band them then I strongly advise you to poison the root when it drops off, whether it looks like it needs it or not. On the two half inch size ball type ones I have banded, on two different horses, a two inch wide star shaped root died when I did that.

If anyone is out of insurance or at last chance saloon, I'm happy to tell you what I do (at your risk, I can take no responsibility for what you choose to do) if you PM me, otherwise stick with your vet and mess with them at your peril!
 
l really feel for you op. I went down the vet, Liverpool cream (& bcg for the 1 near his eye) route, which was looking good, although some needed re-treatment. Just over a year after treatment started he became quite poorly & was eventually pts age 7 with a huge tumour inside.
I believe the sarcoids were an outward sign of what was occurring inside.
 
Been on foaling watch!! Yawn.

All my fellas are on his groin area and belly. Thinking back he had an awful time when he was gelded, he was so swollen i had to call the vet back and he put him on antibiotics. There were also lots of cattle near by, so probably the start of it! Low immune system, open wound and horrible flies!!

W1bbler, im so sorry you had to put your fella to sleep, that very sad and so young. I do think your case was probably an extreme one as i haven't heard this happening generally. I do believe it is something to do with their immune systems though and like us if we are low we can become susceptible to lots of ailments/diseases etc.

ycbm, yes thanks, once the banded and tied ones drop off we will be treating them all then and not before.

Helen, you really have tried everything, is so stressful! As if we don't have enough to worry about in life! i really hope your last attempt is successful!

Shergar, of course I will let you know. I won't be putting anything topical on, only going to do it once when they fall off. ATM, Im giving him 200c thuja twice a day diluted in water in a syringe then down his throat and crushed zinic in his feed. Im trying to locate a good quality tumeric, the fbk website tell you how much to use and you must use it with fresh grounded black pepper to make it work. It really does help my joints so D.E must be onto something.

Rivendell, thanks for your comments. Is it sensationalised though through media etc?! Vets go on courses all the time don't they, they have to to update their skills and knowledge so why is he not educating others to prevent us all sending him photos and diagnosing via email. For the moment its on the back burner, i hope i don't have to go there!

Another vet is also holding xxterra for me but thats also on the back burner ahead of LPc.

Where is this (swear word) Vaccine the US are meant to be working on and who is working on it?!
 
Last edited:
Your criticism of Professor Knottenbelt is very unfair. He IS spreading information. It's here, freely available and very easy to find on Google. There's also a video he made, I'll try and find it.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/sarcoids/

The link between sarcoids, particularly multiples, and internal growths is well known. I have a friend who lost a horse to internal tumours who had a large bleeding one on his sheath. They may not have been connected, of course, but people believe there is a link.
 
Last edited:
Im sorry you feel that way but i was not criticising just asking the questions, really to myself, is he so well known because of the media coverage. I have read that link seen videos etc etc. I've spent the past week doing my research as others have done. Not all medics agree with one another not all scientists agree with one another, it is ok to question or disagree. Im on the bench, LP is on the back burner, i haven't ruled it out but i have lots of questions. And for my own health and stress levels i have to remain positive!

I will report back with progress for those who are interested.
 
Zebe said:
Im sorry you feel that way but i was not criticising just asking the questions, really to myself, is he so well known because of the media coverage. I have read that link seen videos etc etc. I've spent the past week doing my research as others have done. Not all medics agree with one another not all scientists agree with one another, it is ok to question or disagree. Im on the bench, LP is on the back burner, i haven't ruled it out but i have lots of questions. And for my own health and stress levels i have to remain positive!

I will report back with progress for those who are interested.
Click to expand...


You wrote this, apparently after having read his thirty page website all about sarcoids and watching his thirty minute video.

why is he not educating others?
Click to expand...


What more do you expect him to do, he can hardly help being a world expert that everyone wants to consult?

Can I ask what your problem is with Liverpool cream? Just the cost, or something else? I know you have been told that they can come back, but that is true of any treatment. A friend of mine has had a good result with it, though it did take two goes.
 
Last edited:
I did read the Liverpool uni website! Why on earth would i say i did if i didn't, i can't even believe im explaining!!!

Regarding "Others" I meant qualified VETS being able to offer this/his knowledge without going via email photos.. and waiting 3 WEEKS for a reply!

My Problem with LP is:
IT ISN'T A CURE for everyone! therefore it isn't a cure. If it was a cure I would use it despite the nasty ingredients because i would have confidence that it would "cure" my horse. In all my massive amounts of reading i also read "Knottenbelt was wrong on ragwort" Not saying he's wrong with Sarcoids and find all his information informative and facinating but I am saying again it is not a cure..Yet. For those it has cured i am delighted for them. For those it hasn't I hope something will. So im looking at all of my choices and options.

It's become pretty obvious that you are on here looking for an argument. It's NOT helping me or others looking to make such a hard decisions about their precious horses!
 
All licensed drugs don't work in 100% of cases (let alone homeopathic remedies,) so I'm afraid if you choose not to use Liverpool Cream on this basis you will be very limited as to what you can use at all. It is not a well-reasoned argument, as on that basis no drugs or treatments would be worth using at all.

I still feel that if your vet has recommended sending pictures to Derek Knottenbelt then the best thing for your horse's welfare would be to do so and take any necessary advice - whether it's to use Liverpool Cream, or another treatment. If I had a cancer, I would rather get advice from the world expert than from an online forum, and so I don't really understand why you feel Derek Knottenbelt is in the wrong. When you say he is not passing on information to others - he very much is! I'm a vet student and attended lectures given by him telling us how to approach sarcoids and it was very informative :)
 
I simply answered ycmb question on what my problem was with LP. I haven't ruled it out either.

If someone had cancer they wouldn't send photos via email to someone else, they would see a consultant who has learned what he has from the the best, in training and in extended training etc. Why is that not the situation on this particular ailment, why do our vets not have this knowledge to analyse and treat. If i was a student vet i would eventually want to become a vet and treat every problem i could myself, and not ask customers to send photos off via email. Does that not make sense?!!!

btw i have now consulted 2 vet with 2 different opinions. Ip dip do!! What now!!?
 
I don't know if it's already been mentioned (sorry if it has -I've had a quick scan but this thread is getting big) but I've heard turmeric can really help. You can add it to his feed, and I've heard some people make a paste with it and smear it on the sarcoids.
 
Zebe said:
"Knottenbelt was wrong on ragwort"
Click to expand...

Was that the crazy ragwort fanatic and his/her group who thought that you shouldn't remove ragwort from horse grazing by any chance was it? They had an epic thread on here a while back where they were very critical of Prof DK and IIRC, lied about other experts who they claimed supported their view. The experts then came on the thread to correct the lies.
 
My 6 yr old had an aggressive fibroblastic sarcoid and I treated it with toothpaste. It shrivelled and dropped off in 10 days. The hair regrew and the vet was gobsmacked, she has been on turmeric micronised linseed and black pepper since and I have had no recurrence of any sarcoid in 2 years now. The turmeric user group on facebook has some amazing stories and helpful information in the files.
 
faracat, that would be an interesting read, it just goes to show, that you can't believe everything on the internet!

Spacie, thank you, we are looking into trying tumeric & blk pepper as an additional supplement :-)

Yasandcrystal, so great to hear a positive story and amazing you had success with toothpaste! It must have killed the root for it not to have come back! What a relief for you. I did read about toothpaste, something to do with the fluoride!?
Do you feed her the tumeric everyday all year round? Did you try anything before the toothpaste?
 
Last edited:
It should still be on here if you want to search for it. There might even have been two threads (or more) as she/he went away and then came back to rant about it again at least once. One thread was called something along the lines of 'ragwort - I've had it with the myths!' I can't even remember what the myths supposedly were, but I certainly haven't stopped pulling ragwort from the fields. ;)
 
At least you know what your dealing with now! Fungus is hard to shift though once in the system. What do you treat it with? I would personally cut starches & sugars out. Also apparently grass is richer in sugar the day but i only heard this if true you could turn out at night or turn out on limited grass.

Im rethinking my options about what im going to do. Not banding for now anyway!
 
The vet once again stated that a topical treatment wouldn't do anything as it's deep in the skin. :( I don't think that i could cut any more carbs from her diet without taking her completely off grass (which is restricted).

I hope you come to a solution RE your horse's sarcoids.
 
Have you tried any candida remedies? Fungus tends to be on the inside and works its way out to the skin, it keeps coming back if not treated inside out. I have been treating myself for over a year and never been better. My GP prescribed me lots of pills to go on long term so I thought i'd try alternative first even though i was sceptical. Im so much better. Could be worth a try! Heat, warmth and moldy conditions makes it worse so need to be avoided. Difficult I know! Mold is everywhere, even the cleanest straw bedding! They break you heart don't they!! I do wonder if some sarcoids are really fungus, my fellas went mad since feeding beet pulp, might just be a coincidence though. I've been cutting back on his sugar & starches anyway.


I hope to come back with some successful before and after photos!
 
Faracat said:
Just got them today - it's the blasted fungus again. Much better than melanoma or a sarcoid though.
Click to expand...

Have you tried feeding turmeric to treat the fungus,may be speak with Doug English the vet that started the turmeric user group .
Or have a look at TISSUE SALTS FOR HORSES blood purifier,cell healer, I think that site is called equine botanicals .
Echinacea to boost the immune system may help, just a thought as some one else has said treat it from the inside.
 
Zebe - what on earth does a candida infection (unless you are talkinga bout candidiasis which is completely different to the so-called candida overgrowth syndrome/SIBO) had to to with a cutaneous fungal infection?

Faracat, had your vet identified the specific mycosis? There are many systemic antifungals which are available for horses, and like human antifungals, they need to be continued for at least 30 days after apparent cure.
 
Yes, they know exactly what it is as the lumps were sent for histology and they identified it. I know that my vet has spoken to several people about it, but I will ask about a systemic antifungal. :)
 
Casey76 said:
Zebe - what on earth does a candida infection (unless you are talkinga bout candidiasis which is completely different to the so-called candida overgrowth syndrome/SIBO) had to to with a cutaneous fungal infection?

Faracat only said it was fungus ie (candida)!! I have no more information on the diagnosis, i was just giving some options/thoughts that if it was relevant to her or if she had tried everything and didn't know where to turn next then maybe she could look at homopathy. ie. just trying to help!!! Lowering sugar is known to help a multitude of conditions so whats the harm in that, she's already doing that!

Some very aggressive and angry people on this site!!
Click to expand...
 
Zebe, there are hundreds of different mycoses (i.e. fungi) which can colonise a body. Candida albicans is a yeast which causes what we call "thrush" in musocal membranes. A cutaneous fungal infection is very unlikely to be a candidal infection because the environment isn't right for candida to multiply.


Human doctors can't decide if "candida overgrowth" is an actual syndrome or even if it exists at all.
 
That nice, so anyone who has been diagnosed with "candida overgrowth" rest assured, it could be all in your head! My medical doctor diagnosed me with psoriasis, seborrheic dermatitis and rosacea! Prescribed repeat prescriptions for lots of pills & cream and told i would possibly have it for life. I was relieved that my homeopath diagnosed "candida overgrowth" (definitely not in my head) I am almost cured!

A "human doctor".. depends on the human!

Faracats vet sent her away with nothing, thats quite a hopeless place to be, so i was just trying to give hope!
Anyway good luck Faracat with whatever you choose to do. Hope it works out for you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top