Sat here in tears, please help.

C

Cedars

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My beautiful, intelligent, stunningly amazing puppy (1 year old yesterday) is driving me MAD!

Her recall is appalling. I did everything right when we got her, everything by the book, I did EVERYTHING right. But she still just doesn't get it.

Its not that she doesn't get it, actually. She knows shes meant to come back, but she just doesn't do it! She's so independent, she spends all day on her own most days during the working week, so she's really happy on my own. She's insanely food motivated, but wont come back to treats in the field. If you hide/walk away from her, she just ignores you, she doesnt NEED to be with you. And sometimes when you shout for her, she looks up at you, and its as if she thinks about it, and then changes her mind and buggers off anyway.

She's just run in front of a car (on her retractable lead) and I can't cope with that feeling of losing her all the time. I love her too much to let her bugger off out of sight and risk her being hit by a car or eaten by another dog or god knows what else.

Help, please =[
 
Big hug, I don't know how to help, my bunch come back cause they don't want to miss out on a treat.
I hope someone here can help. Don't despair, she is a baby, my 8mth great dane always arrives last and is going through an independent phase now, but luckily has an acre to play in and dig holes, when we go out we do the heel, on a lead with choccy flavoured treats, noisy praise and cuddles..
Big hug.
 
She's a labrador. And I've spoken to a behaviourist, who said that it didnt sound like i was doing anything wrong (well, as in, it sounded like i was doing everything perfectly) and she offered to come out but at £20 for half an hour I just cant afford it.
 
I had a rottie bitch who was exactly the same. She was not in the least bit interested in food though. I spent a fortune on a professional trainer we worked with on a one to one basis. We used a long line and she would come back every time. As soon as she was off the line she legged it and came back when she was good and ready. I am sorry to say she never improved 'til the day she died.
She was an adorable dog and everyone who met her loved her but she had to spend her life on a long line as she was not to be trusted loose.
 
Thanks mattilda. Its nice in a way to hear that some of them are just like that! At the moment feel like its completely my fault.

Did the trainer just give up in the end?

xxxx
 
God they can be so frustrating. Just one thing though....please get rid of the retractable lead....they are a nightmare and wont help the dog to understand that it needs to be at your side (plus as you found out today they can be dangerous in traffic).

Im sure with perseverance you will get through this.
 
I think its a couple of things - one they all go through a phase of being little sh*ts, what treats are you using and do you use a long line and/or another lead?
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I would personally bin the retractable lead in favour of a long line - essentially a lunge line - as you have something more substantial to hold on to. I would keep her on that and then take her out to a large field or somewhere safe and let her run off and call her back - if she doesn't you tug really hard on the line (why its better then a retractable lead) you may have to almost pull her over so she comes back. When she comes back give her a treat. Now you need to have a 'special' high value treat - Spudlet uses chicken, hot dog sausages etc - it may be cheese - essentially it is a yummy treat she only gets when she comes back not something she gets anywhere else.

CC, Spudlet, Hen and CAYLA will be along later with better advice/ideas.
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In the meantime ditch the retractable lead and find out what her 'favourite' treat is and get a supply in. Labs although lovely can be thugs if they don't understand you are pack leader.
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May I ask how much exercise she is getting? It might be that a 12mth old lab who only has herself for company during the day needs more exercise/stimulation than you are currently giving?? Consequently at any given opportunity (notably off the lead) she goes to find it??

If she is good on the lead I wholeheartedly recommend training her to run next to a bicycle and using up some energy that way!!

If you know she is getting enough exercise and still being a madam, perhaps reconsider what treats you are offering as a lure?

You are likely to get a quicker reaction with a yummier treat, so perhaps upgrade to something DELICIOUS (I find cocktail sausages or little chunks of cheese work wonders
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) and be sure to give it every time she comes back whilst out walking (not just when you want to put the lead on to come home!)

Also, it might be worth getting in the habit of only calling her name/giving the command to her once...so she knows it means NOW...

I have taken this theory from a memory of my poor Mother calling "dinner" up the stairs when she had been slaving over a hot stove for her 3 hungry kids!! ...At some stage we learned that:
Call 1 = "dinner is nearly ready"
Call 2 = "it's on the table"
Call 3 (normally fairly angry) "come and sit up NOW"

and I swear dogs learn the same thing
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- so now I only call my cocker spaniel once and *so far* it seems to be working a treat
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NB I also don't call him at all to keep him 'close' either - I am trying to establish from the outset that it is his job to stay close to me and not my job to keep him close
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Best of luck with your girl and I hope you find a workable solution
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Go back to putting on a harness and a long line, never let her get further away than that you can haul her in if necessary. It is not uncommon that they begin to tests the limits again when they are around 1 year old and though that I understand that it is difficult to give them enough exercise on the lead and that it is a hassle with a, 20 to 30 metres long, long line, every time she gets away with not listening to you, the more difficult it is to retrain.

The memory of the times when it did work for your bitch to not listen to you will not go away, the more times she has experienced that she does not have to listen to you, the stronger knowledge she gets about that she can get away with it.


If possible, can you arrange so that something unpleasant happens when she does not listen? So that when she does not listen to you, you throw a can with stones or gravel in it/a plastic bag filled with some other plastic bags/your gloves/the leash etc. on the ground <u>nearby</u> her or squirt her with water from a spray bottle, as soon as the thrown thing or squirt of water breaks her focus on whatever she was doing, you call her again.



Good luck.
 
She gets lots of exercise, shes walked for about half an hour every day on weekdays and for an hour and a half every weekend day. There is noooo way I'd cycle with her - she likes to bolt off after dogs/cats/leaves/wind!! I have visions of broken bones!

I think trying something realyyyyy yummy may work.

She has a normal lead (which she walks to heel very happily on), a retractable lead that i use when we go for a walk not on main roads/in fields, forests etc, and a slip lead that we use when shes excitable, i.e. at gatcombe, badminton etc.

xxxxx
 
Defiantely go with the yummyiest treat and the long line for a bit and not the retractable lead.
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My lab is now about 20 months old and he gets walked for nearly 2 hours a day everyday and has done since he arrived. Is there anyway you can can walk her for another half an hour in the weekday - so morning and night?
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Personally I think you need to up the exercise and if you can, split it up through the day so you are taking the edge off her energy levels as much as you can. This might help her concentration a bit.
 
Slinky, sorry I should have clarified. She gets 30mins of like, power walking. She also gets 15mins twice a day of walking around the village (in an attempt to get her to wee!!). She's always knackered by the end of it - currently shes absolutely fast asleep on the sofa and we only walked into town and back! I really dont think its an exercise thing, because it happens when we're at my OHs dads house - think 5 days, 300acres, free run of about 30 acres (fenced in to keep the rabbits out!) so I just dont think its exercise. I think its sheer bloody mindedness!!!

xxxxx
 
Ok - when you go to OH's dads house take the long line and yummy treats and go to the secure field and practise and practise and practise some more - it may well be for a couple of hours at a time but you must do it for her sake as well as yours! Keep the long line on her everywhere you go for a while - let her out, call her back and reward with a yummy treat - Max soon learnt that being called means a yummy treat and will do 'heel' off lead with his nose your pocket for treats!!
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A labs tummy can be your best friend
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- just find the right treat!!
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I second some of the advice you've already received about teaching recall.

I would add that I think you need to work on more than her recall. Do a variety of work with her in and around the house too - constantly. Make her sit before she goes outside, make her sit before you pet her, make her sit and stay for dinner, constantly work on her behaviour and training (I say sit, but you can change up what you have her do). You'll be teaching her that nothing comes for free but instead by paying attention to you.

Also spend half an hour with her each and every day outside of your walks teaching her something new - shake, lie down, roll over, leave it, sit-stay, lie-stay, heel, speak. It will challenge her and teach her to listen to you more. Reward her well for it with the high value treats others have mentioned (and walk her well so she doesn't chunk out from all the treats) and you will be teaching her that paying attention to you is rewarding and fun. She needs to make that connection ... When you are done with the training, play with her to finish off on a good note.

Try it for a while and see how it works ... labs at that age can be a handful and working on it now will save you a lot of potential problems later on.
 
Aww bless you guys thanks. Will definitely spend time trying to teach her something new every day - was going to take her to dog agility to stimulate her but without her coming back to me I cant risk the embarrassment!!!!!
 
Defo ditch the retractable lead - they are buggers and not worth anything!
Agree with above, long line, yummy treats and you HAVE to make you far more exciting than ANYTHING else - high pitch voice, jumping up and down, open arms and look a complete twat! - It will work - don't give up!!
Also - up the excersise - and really UP it. 30 mins walk isn't enough, double it! Go off roading, through woods and let her pull you up hills! Get her to use her nose to smell for scents, and even put a dog back pack on her so she has to work harder.
Good luck, you will look back at this next year and laugh at yourself!!!
 
Oh I forgot that Alison27, that is a very good point and one I have needed to remind my mother about recently, we are often guilty of teaching them that they can ignore us/their name, that their name does not mean anything special, that it is just a sound that we seem to like to hear ourselves say every tenth second or so.


At the moment my mother seems to have developed a habit of not waiting for an answer, either from me/others or the dogs. If you don't begin to reply as soon as she stops saying a question, she asks again or wonders if you did not hear her and when she takes the dogs with her out in the garden (she is a smoker), if she can't see the dogs come running as soon as she has finished saying their name, she calls them again.

With the obedient Jonna it causes no problem but now when our two young bitches sees it as a choice between coming when called and risk being told to go back indoors or staying out in the snow and play, dig etc. ''Houston, we have a problem''...


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Half an hour is not a lot of exercise for such a young dog. She won't get the exercise or stimulation when she is allowed to roam free at your In-Laws house....they like to 'go for a walk' as well as running free.

However, I would doubt that that has anything to do with recall.....Have you tried a remote collar? I think that you can hire them online or from Pets-at-Home, and it may well be worth a try.

Other than that, I have always found that over-the-top praise is the best way to praise a dog for doing something right.....I dont carry treats and wouldnt want to all the time in order to ensure that my dogs come back. However, I do go *way* ott when telling them how good they were to come back especially in situations when they may well have been distracted by something else.....

I also try not to call my dogs back unless I want/need them back for some reason. Like kids, they become numb when their name is called over and over again.....

I hope you get it sorted and you can start to enjoy your walks!
 
To the people criticising her exercise, my vet has photos of Chlo as they use her as examples for the perfect weight and shape for a lab. She's fine.

Maisy, interesting about not carrying treats. THats what I'd worry about, that shed become reliant on treatsand then when i didnt have them, she'd just start not coming back again!
 
Definitely get rid of retractable lead. I have heard horror stories of dogs being killed by cars whilst on them. Long line is the way to go, and make sure she knows to come the first time you call. Try a rattle tin to reinforce your command, i.e. call her and if no response shake the tin hard. I am currently using one to break Evie of the habit of eating horse poo and it is working brilliantly. At the moment am using a huge tin, the sort which holds a litre bottle of spirits, filled with big stones, makes a horrendous noise when shaken (first time I used it ponies and donkey took off), but it has really made her pay attention to me.
I would use treats to reward her for coming back, if you make treats in your pocket part of your routine for taking her out you needn't worry about being caught without them. Regarding her exercise, whilst it sounds like she is getting plenty of lead work she could probably use with more free running (obviously difficult at present). If you can find somewhere enclosed to do lots of ball throwing or similar it may help her burn off some energy. Just because her weight is fine does not necessarily mean she is getting enough exercise , it just means you are feeding the right ratio of food to exercise at present. My 3 are all a correct weight, the youngest has twice the amount of food the oldie has because she has loads more exercise. If I gave the same amount of food to Saffy who is nearly 12 and jsut goes for a gentle potter she would be grossly overweight.
 
A 12-m-o lab will need an awful lot of time and attention. If she is on her own during the day she is almost certainly frustrated and like an unexploded bomb at the weekends!! If you have to leave her during the day enrol at evening classes, all areas have obedience clubs that will cover basic training, including stay and come. The sessions will stimulate your pup and build up your relationship and confidence in each other. I breed bearded collies and in many ways they mature in a similar way to labs. The nine - 18 month stage is when they need most input. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. She just needs time, your time.
 
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Aww bless you guys thanks. Will definitely spend time trying to teach her something new every day - was going to take her to dog agility to stimulate her but without her coming back to me I cant risk the embarrassment!!!!!

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Have you been to any sort of dog class before?


Don't worry, there is usually someone who is a little envied by the others, being told things like ''Oh your dog is always so calm/obedient'', but when you talk to them or if you are the one being envied, you will know that they usually also worry about their dogs embarrassing them/their dogs not being as good as they know they could be.
After all, the whole point with going to a dog class is to teach yourself and your dog something, if you both already knows it, you would not need to take the class! And if the others/the instructors deliberately makes you feel really bad about your dogs behaviour, you need to change dog club.


From personal experience, I would also say that I would worry less over what embarrassing faults your dog can do during an agility class, if you have to worry about something, worry about all the faults you can do! In agility classes, the goal is not only to train the dog but also to train you to be able to run and direct your dog with both voice and hand-/arm signals, at the same time as remembering a course...

And some instructors tries to teach you that you should always use the arm closest to the dog, sometimes equalling using the left arm while saying ''Right'' (
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I'm glad if I remember that my left arm is my left arm and that my right arm is my right arm, even when only out walking my bitches
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). Then you have to think about if it is your or the dogs right or left that you are supposed to say next, not to mention that at the same time as the dog should get near the obstacles, you should not get too close and the list could go on.


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The key to teaching recall IMO is patience......I have managed to train alot of dogs with recall issues and I definatley think the key is patience, when I begin I simply start by keeping the dog on the lead at all times and this can go for aslong as it takes until I feel it's time, because letting them off to soon or getting impatient and thinking"they need to be off it's cruel" or not wanting to walk to extra milage to make up for the lack of off lead exercise is a sure fire way to get you back to square 1 in a flash.
For example I kept a doberman I was training for the owners(who where at their wits end) like your OP describes, on her lead for near enough 5 months, and I told the owners that unless they did the same I could not work with the dog, with some reluctance they agreed.
I worked in a smaller space to begin with, my garden is pretty big, and it's alot easier to reel a dog in and give a delicious treat they would never get otherwise like cheese or chicken breast, or liver, this should be given in small quantities, each and every time they either come when called or are reeled in and given it, then they can wonder to the end of the line and that is the limit for aslong I feel ready, u can introduce a clicker or a whistle to assosiate with the treat, this helps when they are off in the end, esp the whistle if u don't like screaming like a banchee.
This way the dog is being aught to take the treat in a not so exciting environment, I would then head out for a walk on a short lead, or a good hour and a half, and I would initiate play whislt walking along and offer treats every now and then as a bonding session whilst be where together in a forced kind of way, as the doberman like your lab payed bog all attention when off, she has no human interest (but thats maybe because her humans) where of no interest
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I would then take her to smaller enclosed areas and play with a ball and frizby (in the field) she took no notice of these, however in a smaller space with jsut me at times and other dogs at other times she began to play(there is not much else to do in a small space) I would also initiate play, (run around) and she would follow, or grab her cheeks, which she loves and would go mad and run around in circles and cahse me.

This was all in an effort to bulid a new relationship where I was no so boring(which I never was) but her owners where
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Bearing in mind we are getting on for 4 months on the lead, I then headed for the fields and I would keep the long line on for another month yet, but this time in the field, sure she was a litle more distracted but I saw a huge difference in her interest in me and her owners where seeing the same thing, I even took her to a park with a river full of swans and she was focused on me at all times, I used a clicker and cheese mostly, and she returned without fail, her owners where also playing more with her at home and in the garden and long lining her in the fields, she was approaching the 1 year mark, when it was time to let her off I felt very confident and done so in the farmers field, but usually I would do it in a more contained space.
She rarely left my side, but she was a different dog, she wa not so sulky and miserable anymore and she now knew how to initiate play and she would now play with the ball and frizby and bring them so far back
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I did the sam with my pointer, he had been in 4 homes, and they all let him bog off cos they could not be bothered, he was on a misson to hunt for pheasants, so I decided to avoid the fils and head for the roads, he was getting 3 hours of exercise and OH was taking him out on the bike, he was not treat or toy orientated, but he is a bright dog, so after 3 months of avoiding the fields I used the long line and would let him go to the end call him and make him sit, if he ignored he got a good hard check (which he did not particurlarly like)
he soon learned not to venture all the way to the end of the line, but instead watch me to check out my next move
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so basically I became more of a focus, I repeated this in the field, and on calling his name(still on he long line) he would hot foot it back to my side.
When I eventually let him off, I would not let him get a few metres away without recalling him, I learned if he got further (easily done when I was walking 9 other dogs) he got far enough away to dissapear
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a few months of keeping a close eye and recalling him to my side has now turned to him returning on his own (he gets huge praise) then we send him off again "go on then" which is his release.
There are many differnet ways to tackle recall issues and it depends on the dog, so are bored and looking for a release and some are hunt orientated (the latter is harder to tackle) but it can be done.
 
Just to add, a year old is nothing less than I would expect from this type of behaviour esp for the breed, and relapse in training is very common it means the owner has become complaicent or training needs to be reinforced....it's not a huge deal, and the more stressed you get the worse the situation looks, if you look at the bigger picture, "sure there are perfect dog" but there is also a hell of alot facing the same issues as you right now
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so no more crying and positive thinking about her new training regime
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I dont have time to read through all the posts so this might ahve already been suggested but.....

I have a beagle and she is sooo sooo independent.... she literally went through a phase of looking at you when you call her and saying " no , I don't think so and buggering off".... i have used an electric collar to keep her within our grounds as she was a massive escape artist and just followed her nose the whole time. That has worked wonders and even without her collar on how she wont go past the lines of where she knows she gets electrocuted!

A close friend also had a similar problem to you when out walking. She uses a remote device which gives them an electric shock when they don't come on command.... and also a device that squirts something at them. Its sounds harsh but at the end of a day if your dog cause an accident through escapes from your command and you end up injuring or killing someone its only a small price to pay..... you also don't have to go through the heart ache of constantly worrying about them. I wouldn't invest in those behaviourist people.... you are much better finding your own solution!

Hope this helps XxX
 
With the electric zap collars though, what makes them come back to you? Rather than just panicking and disappearing off in the other direction?

xxxx
 
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To the people criticising her exercise, my vet has photos of Chlo as they use her as examples for the perfect weight and shape for a lab. She's fine.

Maisy, interesting about not carrying treats. That's what I'd worry about, that shed become reliant on treats and then when i didn't have them, she'd just start not coming back again!

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I've heard about an Irish Setter that was walked for about three hours per day by it's owner, still the dog wanted more, so they hired one or two dog walkers and the dog was out walking, as I recall, up to 6 hours per day and yet, it wanted more!

Turned out, they thought the point with walks was only that he should get exercise and be able to read his ''doggy newspaper'' = what the other dogs was doing in the neighbourhood etc, so he walked the walks and was simply very bored! They began training things with him, exercising not only the body without also the brain and quickly found out that they did not need the extra dog walkers anymore.


So though I think that now when she is a year old, she could get a little more exercise per day, I also think it is important what you do together on the walks and at home to let her brain work.






Personally, when my bitches are loose, I recall them every now and then, so that my stubborn spitzes does not begin to think that recall = end of fun/end of the walk.

As an example of ideas a dog could get about how to avoid going home, I think my first now late Buhund bitch Nessie, that I got the year I was 16, have a good chance of a high placement. She learned as a puppy that (according to her) walks ended/we began going home, when she had done her business.
Since I could not explain to her, that as a puppy she should not be out exercising, that sometimes she was only outdoors as it is a quite necessary part of housebreaking and that walks would be different once she had gotten a little bit older, she only saw it as that once she had peed and/or pooed, we would soon go home/indoors. Even if the distance home meant that the walk continued for maybe xx minutes or that we stayed outdoors in the garden for a while afterwards, it was not enough.

She never really forgot, more or less all her life she had a habit of trying to hold herself for as long as she could on the walks, in case it made the walk last a little while longer.



About the treats, well, I rather have a dog that is reliant on treats but always comes on recall, than a dog that is not reliant on treats but can not be let off lead.


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