Scales of Training/Walk & Trot Tests

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From this thread you can pick out the serious competitors from the have-a-goers!
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What a bloody rude and snobby thing to say; Im shocked.
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Gosh P_G - I didn't make the connection when I first read that! I do hope it wasn't a personal attack
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Of course it wasnt a personal attack!
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The only connection to P-G is the putting in foal so how is that a personal attack? People put mares in foal all the time, should they be offended at the above post???
 
thank you Ali/Twiglet.....

at least you 2 have a sense of humour and not a "its all about me" air........

PG....WHY do you think IMMEDIATELY that my reply is a personal attcack??


While i'm here....why dont some of you with a "them and us" attitude just sit back and think...because everyone has to start somewhere..and i'm sure there were many days in the past that folk have thought the same about you.

instead of critism, these "have a go" types need encouraging...

i can certainly see why some sections of the equestrian world think Dressage is for snobs....without a sense of humour betwen them!
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What I find slightly disturbing is this idea that these 'scales of training' appear to be the only recognised means to the end.

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Yes I agree to a point, but there isn't anything unreasonable about the scales of training - are there? What would you see could be different, and I don't mean to be judging I am really interested.
 
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i think this covers it......


Don't know what you mean about the scales of training, aren't they RSCISC ?

Rollkeur
Stiff jaw
Contact
Irritation
Screwed up
Covered and in foal

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i take that very personally, this thread was not about personal attacks on me or my horse - Bloss is in foal as i wanted her to have an easier life - not because i screwed her up
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PG are you a paranoid person? Because everytime someone says something that goes against what you are saying, you take it incredibly personally and either acuse them of making a personal attck on you, as with the above post, which is quite obviously a joke, or just not liking you - as with Weezy's post.

People will disagree with what you say, it isn't necesarily a personal thing!

I didn't bother to correct your Scales of Training as I knew you'd take it personally, but Dressage Chicks list is actually the correct one.

Edited, as i had more to say
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No I wouldnt say there is anything particularly onerous about the scales of training, Im just concerned about the level of importance that seems to be attached to them at the moment. It does lead some riders to become very bogged down and dogmatic in their training which IMO can be detrimental.
 
So Weezy, as we're nearly in the same neck of the woods when will we see you out dresasge-ing? Have I missed something - "on my next horse" - have you got a new one then, is Porridge still with you?

Nosy bugger I know but I've been AWOL for a while
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Yes I see where you're coming from. I like the scales to be honest but as you say it's the way some trainers stick to the book so much. Perhaps you're of a similar age to me when we remember how we were taught to ride
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I think that judges do need the scales as a method to carry out their role though, otherwise it would just be a matter of 'oh I like the colour of this horse'! Do you not think?
 
QR: Not aimed at anyone in particular however the tone of this thread doesnt leave very much hope for me ....

There goes all my hope of ever doing dressage ..... the feeling of being judged, the fact that I cant sit centrally in my left seat of canter - so would automatically opt for a W/T test .. ho hum happy hacking here we come! Darent "have a go" as I would be classed as unprofessional.

Just some of the attitudes picked out of this thread
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QR: Not aimed at anyone in particular however the tone of this thread doesnt leave very much hope for me ....

There goes all my hope of ever doing dressage ..... the feeling of being judged, the fact that I cant sit centrally in my left seat of canter - so would automatically opt for a W/T test .. ho hum happy hacking here we come! Darent "have a go" as I would be classed as unprofessional.

Just some of the attitudes picked out of this thread
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now you know your place young lady, i hope this will put a stop to ideas above your station
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QR: Not aimed at anyone in particular however the tone of this thread doesnt leave very much hope for me ....

There goes all my hope of ever doing dressage ..... the feeling of being judged, the fact that I cant sit centrally in my left seat of canter - so would automatically opt for a W/T test .. ho hum happy hacking here we come! Darent "have a go" as I would be classed as unprofessional.

Just some of the attitudes picked out of this thread
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now you know your place young lady, i hope this will put a stop to ideas above your station
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Precisely; and we wonder why "us" dressage riders get called stuck up.
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TOG I suspect we may be singing off a similarly aged songsheet!

Certainly at the more basic stages of training a lose interpretation of the scales by judges is the only way forward but they can only really be used for good effect if a judge can also see the bigger picture. A quirky horse or a challenged rider having a bad day shouldnt be given leaway on the marks, after all you can only judge on whats happened in the test, BUT a good judge will be able to see that there are other considerations and perhaps allude to them in the comments box.

I know a judge has very limited time and is not there to teach a lesson but to know that someone else does feel your pain occasionally gives all riders a bit of a fillip!
 
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So Weezy, as we're nearly in the same neck of the woods when will we see you out dresasge-ing? Have I missed something - "on my next horse" - have you got a new one then, is Porridge still with you?

Nosy bugger I know but I've been AWOL for a while
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Still got P ATM but she is on the market (although I haven't advertised her yet
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) - nothing to do with her, she is fabby, but I want to crack on and I hate schooling with a vengence so am buying something more produced. I also have decided I just don't DO mares, she deserves someone nicer than me, I get cross with her in the school because I am not sympathetic enough - instructor and I have dug deep and worked hard but I cannot see me progressing any more with her - all down to me and my style of riding, nothing to do with the horse!

I reckon you might see me down at Hunters during the winter - stranger things have happened
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HBII - please don't feel like that, I think some people may have come across like that on this thread but aren't really like that, yes I'm sure you will get those in the real world who may look down upon others but you get that in life full stop. I use to ride with an apologetic style for being at posh venues until one day I was warming up with Spencer (he was on a youngster so let's not get carried away with my level of riding here!) and he said sorry to me for cutting me up, he made me feel like actually I do have a place there and he treated me with complete respect, and I am sure you will get the same respect from anyone you compete against, so please, please go and do your dressage and enjoy yourself, we did all start some where, ok some started with more help and exposure than others, but we ALL started
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To all of you who have been put off by this thread - GO FOR IT!! - nobody on this thread has meant to offend or put people off, of that I'm sure.
 
The way I see it is is that you can never satisfy everyone. I agree that you probably shouldn't be competing without having a basic level of schooling established - call it what you like but imo I wouldn't take a horse out that wasn't balanced, straight and working in rthymn as the way I see it if these bits are established then the rest will follow. I wouldn't necessarily expect a horse to be working into a "true" contact but I would expect it to be ridden from hand to leg, working from behind into a consistent pressure on the mouth. Once Tilly is at this point then I will take her to do some dressage purely as an educational experience and would happily compete HC. There is a very good local venue that is just within hacking distance (about 3-4miles) that runs both affiliated and unaffilated events - if it happened to run a walk and trot test at affiliated level then yes, I would probably enter on a ticket if it was one of our first dressage outings as all I'd be looking to achieve is a quiet, well behaved outing and to get some feedback from the judges and unfortunately I cannot simulate this in a lesson enviroment. If she wasn't quiet and found it all very exciting (!) then I wouldn't progress to prelim until I felt she was happy and relaxed doing W+T. Equally if these tests were run at unaff level then I would do them that way but having no transport I am somewhat limited as to where I can go and what I can do.

I do think there is a market for W+T tests but I also recognise that there is a danger for them being abused! I am not sure I agree entirely with the scales of training in that I struggle to see how they are measureable and quantifiable and if Im honest I don't agree with the order that they are in BUT that is just my opinion. I firmly believe that a horse needs to establish balance, rhtymn and straightness in a relaxed manner first. I then think it needs to improve on suppleness and collection and should start to develop a more advanced contact but that the contact should be consistent from the riders hands from day one - Tilly works into a contact but she does not yet have the strength, muscle and balance to "carry" herself in a more correct frame. I beleive that all impulsion should come from behind but that this improves with time and training and again the horse should have been ridden from the leg and seat from day one.

So opinions vary - as do horses and their riders and their experience. Approaches to training can be very diverse but I think this is a good thing as one way of doing things does not suit everyone and I do wonder, since having lessons with a rider who takes a different approach to the BHS way whether too much emphaisis is put on the outline, pushing the horse with the leg into the hand and being able to "tick the boxes" and not enough is based on feel, balance, suppleness and straightness and working in a relaxed way??

Right, now for a cup of as having only been up for about 1/2 an hour I am craving caffine (and probably not talking any sense at all!
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LOL! So now we can classify the replies into 'serious competitors', 'have-a-goers' and now 'won't-have-a-go-coz-of-the-snobs-ers'
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Don't let them put off off - get that lovely girl out competing and have some fun. There is nothing wrong with being a 'have-a-goer' in my book
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Going back to the OP - I think unaffiliated W&T tests are great for all sorts of people and horses and I find it a shame that some people look down their noses at them. It is great that BD are producing their own W&T tests because some of the improvised tests can be a bit strange and it would be nice to have a properly thought-out one.

Personally, I can't see the point in affiliated W&T competitions in my area as there are plentiful unaffiliated W&Ts at good venues around here, but appreciate it might be different elsewhere.
 
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QR: Not aimed at anyone in particular however the tone of this thread doesnt leave very much hope for me ....

There goes all my hope of ever doing dressage ..... the feeling of being judged, the fact that I cant sit centrally in my left seat of canter - so would automatically opt for a W/T test .. ho hum happy hacking here we come! Darent "have a go" as I would be classed as unprofessional.

Just some of the attitudes picked out of this thread
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HBII, you should not feel like that at all
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My friend felt a bit like this when she went to an unaffil and once we got there and she started working her horse in she actually enjoyed it and now has a few goals she would like to meet. We all feel like this at some point or another... When I first affiliated Grace, at the first competition we went to I felt completely SICK
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But once I had been and done a few competitions I soon realised that everyone is there for the same reason as I was...

There are some people who do look down on you, or on other people, but if you just concentrate on your horse and try to enjoy you, you soon find you don't even notice them
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QR: Not aimed at anyone in particular however the tone of this thread doesnt leave very much hope for me ....

There goes all my hope of ever doing dressage ..... the feeling of being judged, the fact that I cant sit centrally in my left seat of canter - so would automatically opt for a W/T test .. ho hum happy hacking here we come! Darent "have a go" as I would be classed as unprofessional.

Just some of the attitudes picked out of this thread
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Very true, maybe some people should stop and think lifes too short to be thinknig who is best and look down on others around them, maybe those who do well should encourage the people who may struggle and should be willing to be give pointers to help others-i know i would apreiciate that.

I get the same feelings at a BD comp as i do in this thread, sometimes when i take my TB he can be a bit hit and miss through his canter transitions, not dangerous just not perfect, at home 9/10 hes perfect but through becoming tense as im sure i do he will do it more often at comps. So should i not be there to get comp experience because my canter isnt perfect? Unaff is too hit and miss, plus on grass which can be poorly looked after and i have to warm up with SJ'ers which isnt helpfull

I get looks of shock as i unload my tb elegant as he is hes certainly not a Wb, very often im the only other breed barr the odd pony, this often reflects my marks from judges too....

such a shame, i know im far far from perfect but i can certainly ride. but becasue i have a less then perfect horse who isnt wb i shouldnt be there at all. Its awfull. Oh and if my confidence was better jumping, i wouldnt bother coming to BD comps at all.
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FMC, i think i'd be in that category as well.
the only time i've taken it slightly seriously is when my very cute obedient little homebred who didn't move at all won an Elementary, and a very nice stranger came up to me and told me that one of the horses we'd beaten had cost the girl £90k. it was a stunning horse but very naughty, and it was a very windy day... she prob got 9s and 1s through its whole test, so our steady 6767677766767 sort of scores managed to beat it. *grins from ear to ear*
mind you, that one probably went to GP...
 
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perhaps W&T and Prelim should centre around training days - perhaps ride a tes in the morning (marked), then have a session on warm-up ettiquette etc, and a discussion of your marks/way of riding/scales of training in small groups with a BD judge, then do the test again in the afternoon. That way people would have a benchmark about whether they are ready to affiliate or not.

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I think this is a really fantastic idea. I would love to do a session like that. I find my marks sheet very useful in general, but it would be so useful to have the opportunity to discuss specifics with an experienced judge afterwards, especially if there was another opportunity to put the comments into practice again that same day.

*plots to discuss similar idea with YO*

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Maybe I will see if I can organise something like that then if it would be popular. Doesn't have to be BD affiliated, just using BD tests and BD judges...hmmm...food for thought!

See what happens when as an eventer you base yourself on a dressage yard - you lot are a corrupting influence now the season is over!

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I also think this is a brilliant idea and if you are able to arrange anything either at yours or burrows for next year then I'll be in the queue for putting my name down!
 
QR: thanks for all the kind and motivating words guys!

Will be having a go whatever be it this year [whats left of it] or next! Dont worry Ill let myself loose on unaffiliated first
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. Do they do lead rein walk test .. ? No
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I judged at an unaff once to see a mother leading her daughter with side reins on and leading the dog round the test at the same time!! How do you judge that
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