Scared of worming

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FrankieDurleigh

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Hello,

July just gone, I rehomed an ex racer off of the track. I was told he was upto date with everything but he was so skinny we decided to worm him with neropraz just to be safe.
24 hours later he coliced, luckily I caught it early and he is fine. (Only needed pain killers)
It's now March and I want to keep on top of his worming, I've spoken to my vet who recommended using equest promax and said he probably had a large worm burden and should be ok this time.
The thing is I'm petrified of worming him again!!! The vet has recommended to worm and then follow up with egg counts etc, but red worm and tapeworms will not show, so to be safe worm with promax.

I'll be watching him like a hawk tomorrow (that's when I plan to do it) and won't leave the house so I can make sure he's safe.
My questions are when is it safe to say he hasn't had a reaction to the wormer? 24 hours? 48 hours??
Has anyone else had this before? And second time round were you ok?

Sorry, I'm so paranoid! 🙈

Thank you for your replies! X
 
I have owned and had at livery hundreds of horses in total, some will have had a very high worm burden on arrival yet I have never, touch wood, had one colic following worming, you were probably very unlucky and it is unlikely to happen again but if left and he has worms that is more of a risk that giving the appropriate wormer when required, more horses will become unwell or die from having worms than from being wormed.
Use the Pramox and keep an eye on him, then worm count and do the saliva test for tapeworm, that way you may only have to do him once a year for encysted redworm.
 
I lost a horse to colic last year, 24 hours after worming with Pramox. I have no proof it was the Pramox, but after considerable talking with vets and reading whatever I can I will in future be using Panacur 5 day Guard followed a few weeks later with Equitape for Tapeworms. Pramox is very strong and there is a suggestion that if there is a high worm burden the dying worms can cause toxicity. I stress there is no proof but for obvious reasons I personally will be cautious.
 
Please get some proper advice on worm control tailored to your horse and your situation. It's a very long gap from July to March especially if you think he has a large burden. Please phone the lab (Westgate) in the morning and you can have a good chat with a very experienced person who will help you decide the best action. This is unlikely to be Equest Pranox as you should probably be targeting one thing at a time rather than using a dual action product. Help is always here.
 
Dusagree with all of the above, the person you should be speaking to again is your vet, voice your concerns and ask for other suggestions regarding worming. He is correct about the Pramox but if you are really worried and there is potentially a large burden then pretreating with something with some known resistance such as Panacur equine Guard may be a suggestion (following up with Pramox a week or 2 later). There are still horses coming down with cyathostomes as we speak so I would definitely be doing the Pramox as no other wormer will be effective for these.
 
I'm not expert enough to give advice, but a future consideration might be to use the intelligent worming programme. My yard does it which means sending of a sample for testing each quarter and then they advise whether worming is needed or not. My horse is generally wormed with pramox start and end of grass growing and nothing else has been required aside from that for years. As for pramox now, I can completely understand why you would be worried, so have another chat with your vet to see if there is an alternative. As he has been wormed with it before it may mean there is not a huge worm burden to deal with now, you could always get a pooh sample tested so you know the burden levels to help decide if the pramox is ok.
 
Thank you all for your replies.
I did buy Panacur 5 day guard but she said the worms have built an immunity to them?
I think I'm going to speak to a different vet and get a second opinion. I know it sounds silly but I'm petrified of it happening again!!
 
FrankieDurleigh said:
Thank you all for your replies.
I did buy Panacur 5 day guard but she said the worms have built an immunity to them?
I think I'm going to speak to a different vet and get a second opinion. I know it sounds silly but I'm petrified of it happening again!!
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I would never use pramox. I don't consider it worth the risk of giving the horse 2 chemicals at once.
As far as tapeworm is concerned you could test now. That way you will know if you need to worm for it or not. You can either get a blood test for tapeworm that your vet could do or you could do a saliva test that you could do yourself. If you go onto the Westgate site you can order a saliva test.

I think your horse should have been wormed for encysted with equest probably in Dec or Jan. I would worm now with equest for encysted. If you have to do tapeworm you can always use equitape in a couple of weeks time.

I would do a worm count now before using equest. It will not show the encysted burden but will give you some idea as to the worm burden of the horse. If he has a high burden I would make sure I wormed first thing on a Monday morning and that the vet was aware of this and of the worm count. That way if there are problems the vet has all day to come out and it will be a lot cheaper than having to call out an emergency vet at week end nightime rates.

I have had a horse colic after worming and it was very worrying so I know where you are coming from.

I don't know how anyone can comment about immunity and Panacur guard unless you have used it and then done a resistance test a couple of weeks later to check if it has been effective.


Have you taken up Borderreiver's offer to ring Westgate? July to Mar is a very long time to leave worming or counting and, if it was me, I would be prepared for problems and trying to limit them. Hopefully after this worming you will be able to get onto regular worm counts and things will be less worrying.
 
ester said:
I wouldn't use pramox with a history of horse colicing when worming.
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Absolutely this. There are far too many reports of horses colicking after treatment with Pramox. I use Equitape followed a fortnight later by Equest on my spasmodic colic prone cob - same chemicals as Pramox, but administered separately rather than together. This seems to be tolerated better by susceptible horses.

Was July really the last time you wormed him?
 
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I, 100% agree about talking to your vet and if you are uncertain of their advice Westgate are very useful or another vet in the local area maybe able to help you. Panacur has been used for so long that recent research and evidence done in trials show that it will have very little effect if any as the worms are immune as shown below:
A recent study testing the efficacy of the 3 groups of worming products on small strongyles gave the following results:

•Panacur does not work on 14 out of 17 yards
•Strongid P does not work on 4 out of 22 yards
•Ivermectin type wormers (not including Equest) do not work in 2 out of 22 yards

I can understand why the vet has recommended Pramox as it does everything but Tiddlypom has a great suggestion in using the two ingredients separately especially if you are nervous. Good luck and in future I would recommend worm egg counts/tapeworm saliva test as most older horses don't need worming more than once a year.
 
I'd go to Westgate before a vet - Westgate are dealing with worms and wormers all the time; vets can be terribly out of date.
CharliePP, is that a published study and do you have the reference?
 
Quite though it is very few yards of it is. Fwiw if my horse I would worm count then prob use panacur 5 day then a praziquantel then worm count again - taking a big sample and mixing several droppings v well- if the count was still high I would use an ivermectin/moxidectin though am not sure if now is getting a bit late to remove the risk of encysted emergence anyway. I am actually pretty astounded that a vet (or two!) would give a horse with this history pramox as the first go to.
 
Hello Soloequestrian I have seen this information on this website http://www.twdahosting.com/intake/?page_id=105. I first came across it a year or so ago when I was studying to be an SQP but 2 hours of searching and I still can't find the actual paper. Moray coast vet group mention some papers stating a 80-90% resistance to fenbendazole (panacur) and another vet group said that they wouldn't include panacur in a dosing strategy due to it being ineffective. I have sat in training course where figures of up to 90-100% resistance have been quoted.
 
I wouldn't include panacur as part of a worming 'plan' but I would consider it's use in particular circumstances eg horse with unknown history/likely high burden.
 
Cpp interesting their suggestion about using equest on a new arrival. Uni's top worm bod suggested count, treat with ivermectin and isolate then count again. If not <50 epg sell the horse before it contaminates your pasture (which I couldn't see many doing after the effort required to find one in the first place).
 
Would you mind me asking which uni? I agree with egg counts as one of lecturers at uni a few years back was already on the once a year worming idea. With unknown history I would agree with isolation on a dirty pasture so resistant worms are diluted before cross grazing with sheep or stabling for a few days. My first choice would be moxadectin over ivermectin due to the encysted larvae possibly even with a dose of strongid before or after if I was really unsure. Worm resistance has nothing really to do with the horse and maximising use of egg counts with species identification and efficacy testing of the wormers whilst a pain in the bum is definitely easier than selling your horse!
 
I never use pramox on my horses I have seen two horses be very ill after having it, I would use the 5 day panacur guard or an Equest especially as the horse had colic after the first wormer.
 
I used Equest ( at normal dose rates) to worm a mini Shetland and had dreadful adverse results. Not colic but all of the side effects the company say are rare unless at higher than recommended doses - ataxia, loss of appetite, depression etc etc. I did a search on here and found a post warning of the use of Equest - admittedly from 2008. Several people reported colic problems post Equest but this could be because of high numbers of erupting encysted worms, but there was also a mention of the death of a Shetland and blindness. Certainly after 48 hours there is still something very wrong with my Shetland and I am not sure that its not sight related too. And it should not be used on donkeys!
 
CharliePonyPops said:
Would you mind me asking which uni? I agree with egg counts as one of lecturers at uni a few years back was already on the once a year worming idea. With unknown history I would agree with isolation on a dirty pasture so resistant worms are diluted before cross grazing with sheep or stabling for a few days. My first choice would be moxadectin over ivermectin due to the encysted larvae possibly even with a dose of strongid before or after if I was really unsure. Worm resistance has nothing really to do with the horse and maximising use of egg counts with species identification and efficacy testing of the wormers whilst a pain in the bum is definitely easier than selling your horse!
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Essentially he was suggesting that if the horse carried ivermectin resistant worms you really didn't want them on your pasture at all, diluted or not as you are then rather limiting your future worming options. Hence the comments about the horse. Also

Bristol, Gerald Coles. Most of my worming stuff came from working on sheep FEC projects but that does mean I am not always that keen on FECs the way they are done for horses though I do think some providers do a better job of advising than others. I just don't think the risks/chances of a false negative result particularly with sample taking method are widely enough known with end users who haven't got a whole series of results behind them for their herd to reduce the chances of that. And don't mention worming and turning onto clean pasture!
 
Ivermectin resistance is unfortunately something that is already being seen but the worms may still be susceptible to pyrantel as when I have sold horse wormers in the past it has been under used and under appreciated. Its when you get the worms that are immune to all 3 that we have a serious problem.
I have been involved with horses, cattle and sheep regarding worming and I completely see your point about false positives. I think it is about trying to be sensible in terms of pasture management, drug use and FECs. Sadly its one of those subjects that isn't black and white but trying to move away from the dosing every 8-13 weeks needs to stopped. The sheep guys have been lucky in finding 2 extra drug groups but I don't think with equines we will be so lucky and we are fast running out of options.
 
Yes, you just don't want to set yourself up to fail, particularly if you are a big yard by introducing resistant worms of which you currently have none. assuming panacur resistance if you then have ivermectin resistance you only have moxidectin and possibly pyrantel to go to. One horse therefore really narrowing your options down.

If worms are immune to all three then you shut down, period. As has happened with horses on farms in Mexico and at least two sheep farms in the southwest did a few years ago and you don't keep that animal there anymore.
 
After a lot of consideration and speaking to my dad who has been a horse owner his entire life, I followed my vets advice and used the promax. 30 hours later *touch wood* I have had no side effects.
We even went for a stroll round the block, he's bright and eating so I'm pleased!

Thank you for all your replies!
I just decided if you can't trust your vet......

Xx
 
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