Schmallenberg virus - are you affected?

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Ranyhyn

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After reading and hearing about this on the news, I am pretty concerned about our future lambs.

For those who haven't seen it, here's a quick link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17176542

And for those who don't want to read the link it's a virus, supposedly spread by European midges that affects lambs, deformity or being born dead or dying shortly after.

I have seen that it's slowly creeping across the map, the nearest to us (S Wales) being Glouc and Hereford :( I feel so bad for those who are suffering and given that we don't even know if this is dangerous to humans yet, it's a worrying time!
 
We have been lucky so far, only got 6 left to lamb and the other 30 ewes have been unaffected. The trouble is its not notifiable, we have heard of a couple of farms that have had late abortions and very difficult lambings (more so than usual with odd sounding lambs), farms are not going to voluntarily notify the vets they will just chuck the lambs and hope for the best. It is very difficult to moniter the spread unless everyone is honest. We have had 1 case in cornwall so far, hope it stays that way.
The pedigree inlamb ewe trade is going to take a hit until there is a blood test to show for immunity, it has been shown that once infected the sheep will have a strong immunity, whether this is passed onto the lambs is unknown as yet, hopefully it is.
 
All very interesting questions Varkie, I'll ask my dad when he comes in.
We have (touch wood - so far) not been affected. We have had a few early lambers, but the majority of ours will be lambing out to the grass in April/May.
The problem I have with the notification of Schmallenberg is that how do we - as laymen - know for sure that our flock is affected?
Everyone involved with sheep will know that ewes will abort, but its not always (or rather not usually!) Enzootic Abortion, lambs will die suddenly, but its not always Pulpy Kidney or Watery Mouth etc etc etc, so how do we know that the strange lamb just born is as a result of Schmallenberg, or is just "a wrong'un" ?

We had a ewe lamb yesterday, one tiny little ratty lamb who is now gaining strength and going on well, and a rotten manking mess of a dead lamb.... who's to say that this is or isnt the virus? Unless of course we PM every lamb we lose, which isnt really practical or financially viable .:(

It is a worry though isnt it, especially for those of us who are lambing later and are further north of the virus. My heart goes out to those who have lost lambs though, its awful!

As an aside, the Countryfile report lastnight was a touch misleading I felt. The 2 lambs shown as having 'mild Schmallenberg' were just slightly parrot mouthed and slightly knock kneed...that isnt a notifiable deformity, just a slight 'wonk'! (Usually - but not always - caused by line breeding getting a bit to close) If we put the cat amongst the pigeons and encourage people to notify vets of every slight birth defect then not only will the vets be overwhelmed, farmers will go bankrupt from the cost of the vets visits!

Sorry, Ive rambled! Hope I make at least a bit of sense!! x
 
varkie said:
Does this have any implications other than birth issues & defects? Are animals infected for life once they have it? Or can they overcome it? Will it affect all future births?
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It appears once infected (infectious period appears to be 3-6 days) the animal has a strong immunity to the virus, noone knows if immunity is transferred to subsequent pregnancies. Hopefully they will develop a blood test that will show if an animal is immune or not. It seems the main problem is the animal becoming infected within the first month or so of the pregnancy, it seems if they become infected prior to the ram being put in there isn't a problem as they have formed an immunity.
There is NO health risk to the public.
 
"We had a ewe lamb yesterday, one tiny little ratty lamb who is now gaining strength and going on well, and a rotten manking mess of a dead lamb.... who's to say that this is or isnt the virus? Unless of course we PM every lamb we lose, which isnt really practical or financially viable ."

Testing of dead lambs for the virus is free. Maybe at the moment if you have any doubt that it may be the virus you should test, ignoring the problem will not help in keeping track of infected areas. Its a shame its not notifiable.
 
Thanks for that Jrp204, Its good to know that the testing is free.
We are confident that the dead lamb yesterday isnt the virus, but will keep in mind for future ref. I agree, perhaps if it were notifiable then we would be able to track its progress and try to contain the problem. x
 
We have another month until we start lambing and I agree that it is all very worrying. I also agree that it will be hard to know whether a lamb born with a birth defect is caused by this or just one of those things that we all get from time to time. :(
 
We have lambed around 150 with thankfully no more problems than usual one lamb of a treble was one set of legs and a body, no head but that was six weeks ago before new of this virus but have 350 left to lamb and no way of knowing just praying be ok. In Bedford area.
 
Grrr, How do you multi-quote??!!! Argh!!

We have another month until we start lambing and I agree that it is all very worrying. I also agree that it will be hard to know whether a lamb born with a birth defect is caused by this or just one of those things that we all get from time to time.
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We have lambed around 150 with thankfully no more problems than usual one lamb of a treble was one set of legs and a body, no head but that was six weeks ago before new of this virus but have 350 left to lamb and no way of knowing just praying be ok. In Bedford area.
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Mon & Snowdrop, thats just the thing Im talking about.
When you lamb any number of ewes, inevitably there will be non viable lambs, lambs that die in-utero, lambs that are deformed etc.
If every farmer in the country sends every non-viable lamb born - deformed or not - to be tested (which is more likely with the news that testing is FOC) then the agency doing the testing is going to be swamped, and the results of the tests will take longer to come through because of the backlog. Has the government/DEFRA got a plan in place for this?
Although it is a worrying time, unless farmers are finding that they are having higher than average death/deformity rates then perhaps the wisest course of action is to carry on as normal, rather than over-analyse each and every death?
xx
 
I agree you will always get a % of lambs that aren't viable but i think this is different. It appears the malformation is quite distinct, i guess it would be harder to diagnose if the ewe has aborted as you will get natural returns but i suppose if you start having more, later abortions this is when alarm bells should start ringing.
We only have a small flock (50 ewes, 42 Texel,8 texel X) i suppose every year we will get 1, maybe 2 unviable (mummified or having died prior to lambing starting) we will also inevitably lose 4 or 5 to malpresentation or v. large lambs. I think we would soon start to notice the malformation that is presented with the virus and it would be then that i would send off the body for testing. Apparently the malformation can also cause major problems when lambing the ewe and i wonder how many people will get the vet out for a c. sec or just shoot the ewe. I think in the pedigree world c secs are more likely due to the value of the ewe but in a commercial flock it would prove too expensive.
The best case scenario is that many flocks were infected during last summer and the ones presenting malformed lambs were caught by late midges, all these will now be immune. Without blood testing it is impossible to know the extent of the problem and while it stays off the 'notifiable' list we won't know how big the problem actually is.
The other reason for having lambs tested is, if and when a vaccine/blood testing becomes available those that have had positive diagnosis will get first shout at it.
 
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Ruddyreindeer said:
Did they not say on 'Countryfile' that it will also affect calves ?
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Yea all ruminants are affected, but seems more common in sheep/goats, than cattle.
we had our pedigree flock lamb early Jan and they were all ok, except my little pet who was born with bent neck and legs BUT came straight in a week so am not too concerned plus her brother was fine, think it was not enough room in ewe as they are both huge, so the ewe lamb just got squished(i hope),
the main flock (350 NCMs and Suffolk x)start on 1st march so we will wait and see, FINGERS CROSSED!!
It would be helpful if the was a some definitive advice about it its all very confusing, but the main thing which needs to be said IT WONT HARM PEOPLE!!
 
I was on the Countryfile programme, and my vet was also there, and he was on Radio 2 this morning, with Jeremy Vine.

I'm just wondering how many different ways there are for us to say "Don't know", because we don't.

It worries me a little that this awful virus, has been named after a town, and that in reality, is all that we know about it. Being a virus, it's felt that affected ewes this year, will carry a future immunity, as they do to all other aborting agents, and though this is different from Enzo or Toxo, the immunity build up, should be the same.

We're only lambing 90 ewes this year, having bought in 300 ewe lambs last year, and so we're told, the danger period is when a ewe is infected during the first month, or so, of pregnancy. So, presumably, if our bought in ewe lambs have been infected, then by the time that they go to the tup this winter, they should have built up a degree of immunity.

Of course it's a worry, but I think that rather like Blue Tongue where the threat seems to have evaporated, by next year, we should have seen the worst of it.

I'm due to start lambing in a fortnight, and it will be the shearlings first, but worryingly, there are no bags starting to form with any of the ewes. The mature ewes are starting to look like they're in lamb, but still not a bag to be seen. Unusual, to say the least.

I've asked others who have been lambing for the last month, or so, and they all seem a little reticent. Not a volunteer amongst them, which I think is a little irresponsible.

Whilst the Countryfile programme probably wont tell you anything which you don't already know, it can be seen on BBC i~player, my vet Toby has put in an awful lot of unpaid research over the last few weeks, and for those who've yet to see a geriatric shepherd, your's truly is on display!!

The virus? I haven't the faintest idea, but as you progress through lambing, Id be really grateful if you could keep us all abreast of your events.

Would you think it of sufficient interest, if I were to ask of The FC, that we could have a sticky, until say the end of May? Just a thought.

Good luck everyone, I love lambing, but worry about this year.

Alec.
 
Brill idea about sticky Alec.
After watching the news it seems my pet lamb could of had schmallenberg, lady on there said she had twins one with and one without?!!
But do lambs survive it or does it kill them?? this lamb is 35kg and 8weeks old so hasnt been stunted, and is now pefectly normal apart from funny ears, they arent growing - Look like they have been banged and gone all nobbly.
The vets dont seem to be interested as she is alive.
 
Alec, which one of the chaps were you? The 1st one in the shed, or the other chap out in the catching pen?
Kiribati_uk - I think what you have with your pet is 'Rick Neck', they have long, tight necks, can have a twist and often have a knock knee'd look or stiffness to their bodies. Especially as the lamb has straightened now. We had one last year - teabag - he was extreamly twisted and stiff at birth, with a strange floppiness to his body but complete rigidity in his neck. He grew up to be a smashing lamb, abet a little odd looking! Giant ears that would be better on a rabbit, and set quite far back on his head, and still a very long and not very mobile neck, but perfectly fine for what we do - meat trade - I called him 'Dino Boy' as he had the look of those long necked dinosaurs! :)

Alec, good idea about the sticky, at least then we would be able to track the virus' progress over the country. Im not supprised at the reticence you have observed though, farmers are a pretty secretive lot!!! :)

Jrp204 - is there anywhere on line yet that we can see not only a picture of a Schmallenberg lamb, but a video of how the limbs are restricted and how they feel to the handler - ie, are they rigid/floppy, do they feel unformed internally like an aborted lamb or are they in a sort of permanent rigor? The ewes, when lambing them do they feel normal on entry? Do they have a ringwomb feel, dry, is there a smell?
The more informed we are, the better we will all be to recognise the virus.

I think in the pedigree breeders will absolutely go for C.Sections, as the ewes are sometimes worth thousands, the more mainstream breeders like us will try everything we can, but c.sec's are absolutely non financially viable. Have any of the farmers faced with lambing a ewe with a Schmallenberg lamb tried resection of the body? If the presentation of the body prevents normal vaginal birth, then taking the lamb apart inside the ewe could well be a viable option?

Also, I feel it is really important to point out that Defra hasnt said that it definately wont harm people, just that there is no evidence to say it would.
Germany have already banned imports, how long will it be before the arse end falls out out of the lamb market yet again? It could be the end of some smaller farmers like us.
 
As far as i'm aware (after speaking to our vet) the ewes will go through a normal labour and will feel normal but if you go in to help the lamb may have fused limbs which are solid and can be at right angles, the spine can also be twisted so the head can be effectively facing the wrong way. The lamb may still be alive and are often normal size. The problem comes when trying to lamb the ewe as it isn't always possible to get the lamb through the birth canal. C sectioning the ewe is an option to remove the lamb if lambing it normally will cause too much damage.
I have done alot of research into the virus and have had a long chat with our vet, who also had a long chat with a vet 'in the know'. Luckily we have had a clear lambing with no signs of this awful virus, only have 6 late ones left to go now and the others are all out on grass and rape now growing quickly.
I hope you all have a clear lambing.
 
I was listening to this discussion on Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 and what they were saying is that the labour is often more complicated because of the malformation of the lamb. The vet said that if you go in to help the birth you will know instantly that it is Schmallenberg because of the state of the lamb. They also said that it is quite common to have only one lamb of twins affected and the other one normal.
They said that the lambs almost always die at birth because of brain defects too.
Listened with interest as it will be my first season lambing this year!
 
Rosehip said:
Kiribati_uk - I think what you have with your pet is 'Rick Neck', they have long, tight necks, can have a twist and often have a knock knee'd look or stiffness to their bodies. Especially as the lamb has straightened now. We had one last year - teabag - he was extreamly twisted and stiff at birth, with a strange floppiness to his body but complete rigidity in his neck. He grew up to be a smashing lamb, abet a little odd looking! Giant ears that would be better on a rabbit, and set quite far back on his head, and still a very long and not very mobile neck, but perfectly fine for what we do - meat trade - I called him 'Dino Boy' as he had the look of those long necked dinosaurs! :)
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Yippee thats what the dad and brother was telling me, but the more you here and see the more you think what if!!
hadn't heard germany had stopped imports.......But they had it last year and werent bothered!!
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Awful experiences last year..lost all but one who had to have splints-lost her at 6 days after bottlefeeding.devastating times. very difficult really long labours and no signs as none bagged up till they dropped/were imminent. Vets just said each time, oh you must just be unlucky/ewes old(not)/duff ram every excuse under the sun. Every time i felt i was not being taken seriously. I wanted to test & they simply seemed to laugh/look at me as tho i was neurotic or poor husbandry/bonkers which I can assure you nothing physically more could have been done to give every ewe & lamb the very best chance. I've been beating myself up over this ever since & was astounded to hear there was a farmer not so far away(next farm to where mine had been)who lost 40 lambs(everything)so far worse than my small flock.Vets were the same to him.He was near suicidal. Funny(not haha funny) tho that the field other side of mine was empty -I wanted it for my broodmares but was put off when i heard cattle had repeatedly aborted there without fail every time & always unexplained.Now i wonder if there was a link to the weather..and to this year-last year i can vouch was terrible for midges as i am frequently midge fodder. I think it should be notifiable..tho if it is midge spread, I don't think it will help contain or stop its spread..not all the time the lorries are transporting all over the country as the damage will already have been done.wishing you all the most stress free healthy lambing season...
 
BoolavogueDC said:
What is the option if you aren't going to C section your ewe? Dare I ask, I imagine it has something to do with dismantling before exit..?
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If you don't want to get the vet out and you are experienced enough to dismantle the lamb i suppose you could but they can still be alive or i assume you shoot the ewe.
 
Gosh what a sad outlook for those affected. I feel hugely sorry for those who rely on their flock for income, our farmers are in such dire straits already :( we're lucky that we only have 30 to lamb and they are my partners hobby so any losses are just desperately sad.
 
BoolavogueDC said:
What is the option if you aren't going to C section your ewe? Dare I ask, I imagine it has something to do with dismantling before exit..?
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Assuming that the lamb's alive, if the front joints are so badly misshapen and fused that a normal exit isn't achievable, then you push the legs back, get the head up, cut the lambs throat, and remove the head. You then push the stump back inside. You then get one leg up, at a time, attached to a chord, put your arm back in and remove the front leg and shoulder with a very sharp knife. That should allow for the remaining leg to be used, to pull the lamb out. If that doesn't work, then you repeat the process with the second leg, and then reach further inside, take the bag legs, and remove the lamb, but backwards. If none of that is an option, you shoot the ewe.

Too much information? I apologise, but that's the reality. With luck, those lambs which are so affected, would probably result in a pre-term birth, and the smaller the lamb, the easier the birth, generally.

Alec.
 
No, not TMI, thanks Alec. I knew of a mare once who had to exit her foal the same way, poor thing. I've not grown up in the farm setting quite so much as he has and knowledge is power, so they say :)
 
Alec Swan said:
Assuming that the lamb's alive, if the front joints are so badly misshapen and fused that a normal exit isn't achievable, then you push the legs back, get the head up, cut the lambs throat, and remove the head. You then push the stump back inside. You then get one leg up, at a time, attached to a chord, put your arm back in and remove the front leg and shoulder with a very sharp knife. That should allow for the remaining leg to be used, to pull the lamb out. If that doesn't work, then you repeat the process with the second leg, and then reach further inside, take the bag legs, and remove the lamb, but backwards. If none of that is an option, you shoot the ewe.

Too much information? I apologise, but that's the reality. With luck, those lambs which are so affected, would probably result in a pre-term birth, and the smaller the lamb, the easier the birth, generally.

Alec.
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That requires alot of skill, luckily we have never had to it, if it is that bad/big we would prefer to C sec, i would imagine in unskilled hands it would be very easy to rupture/cut the uterus which would kill the ewe.
I appreciate in a commercial flock it is very hard to justify a c sec, we have a pedigree flock of Texels some of which are quite valuable (to us anyway) so we are prepared to c sec if necessary.
 
Very concise information Alec, put much better than I could :) Its not something that farmers relish doing, but if it saves the ewe then it has to be done.

Thanks for the link to the video, it does seem that the lambs are clearly deformed and it would be recognisable to someone used to lambing. As an aside though, the lambs that look as though they are in the research facility or similar (under the lamp, shown to the camera by chap in lab jacket) - it strikes me that often when lambing 2/300 ewes as we do, sometimes we do get one with 'a wobble on' as we call it. Sometimes they come right, other times they dont, but how do we know if its Schmallenberg? Do they all have the parrot mouth?
Last year we had a few (admittedly from old ewes that perhaps werent in top notch condition) funny lambs, slight wobbles that soon corrected, a ewe had twins that seemed unformed inside (big, watery bellys), a couple of knock knee's lambs that straightened with time, that sort of thing. I wouldnt call that a virus or a medical problem, I would say that we stretched ourselves too thin, and our stock management wasnt quite up to scratch. So our problem, not a medical one. If you know what I mean?

Kiribati_uk - panic not :) Sounds very very very much like Rick Neck, and a fairly mild dose, I really wouldnt worry bout your pet :) x
 
Looking at the maps of it's spread I am questioning whether there is more in the south because they will probably lamb earlier (therefore wait and see) or whether there would have been less midgies up north. It is interesting to see on Countryfile that they thought it was non-transferable between sheep which can only be a good thing! The parrot mouthed lambs shown I thought could have been non affected as poor breeding as someone else had mentioned.

Outof interest I thought that midgies had a short lifespan so how do they reckon they float over here. Or is it hereditary in midgies?

Fingers crossed for my OH's 600 or so sheep and my Suffolk due to lamb in a few weeks and for Cattle who they think may be showing infection later.
 
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