Schooling 4x a week like Carl and Charlotte?

[JGC]

So wondered if anyone wanted discuss the comment made by Carl Hester in the H&C programme on the Europeans that all their horses are ridden four times a week - once to learn something, the next day to confirm it, then a day off in the field to think about it.

So, anyone follow that routine? How does it work for you? Anyone used to do that and changed? If so, why? I know they hack the horses as warm-up so do you think he literally means that they are in the field for three days out of seven?

I am not that far away from that routine - mine do five days "work" so they'll be schooled say, Tuesday-Wednesday, off on Thursday, schooled Friday, lunged/jumped hacked Saturday and schooled Sunday. Now I think about it, the work we do on (for argument's sake) Wednesday is the best of the week. (I'd also like to mention that schooling almost always involves a 20-30-min warm-up hack and a 10-min cool-down walk). I'm not sure that I could take away a day from J as she's a bit of a podge, but I don't think K would mind having an extra day off.

Chocolate digestives if you got this far!

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I watched that last night and thought it was a brilliant concept- one definitely worth considering.

However I do think it all depends on the horse!! You also have to take into account how well C&C ride so they probably get very good results in each session, with an amateur, they wouldn't get the same results and consistency so perhaps there is a need for them to school slightly more if they want to get results quicker?

 

[JGC]

I watched that last night and thought it was a brilliant concept- one definitely worth considering.

However I do think it all depends on the horse!! You also have to take into account how well C&C ride so they probably get very good results in each session, with an amateur, they wouldn't get the same results and consistency so perhaps there is a need for them to school slightly more if they want to get results quicker?

You mean to say I don't ride as well as C&C?????

Seriously, I totally agree that I do not have the same level as them But I guess if he's saying that this is how he has found horses learn best, then it doesn't matter what your level is, they're still going to learn better this way (these are all musings, just trying to think through what he said, not knock down anyone's arguments - really want a genuine discussion!).

For example, my husband teaches driving, to all kinds of people, some with previous experience, some not, and he teaches them all using "show, tell, get them to do it" and by structuring lessons into intensive bursts. And he gets all his other instructors to do the same, even though they have varying levels of experience/skill. And it works really well in exam results.

But now I say that, a little voice in my head is saying "many roads lead to Rome"!

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

You mean to say I don't ride as well as C&C?????

Seriously, I totally agree that I do not have the same level as them But I guess if he's saying that this is how he has found horses learn best, then it doesn't matter what your level is, they're still going to learn better this way (these are all musings, just trying to think through what he said, not knock down anyone's arguments - really want a genuine discussion!).

For example, my husband teaches driving, to all kinds of people, some with previous experience, some not, and he teaches them all using "show, tell, get them to do it" and by structuring lessons into intensive bursts. And he gets all his other instructors to do the same, even though they have varying levels of experience/skill. And it works really well in exam results.

But now I say that, a little voice in my head is saying "many roads lead to Rome"!

Yes, totally agree and in all honesty, it could well be how they learn best. BUT, if you're an amateur trying to reach a certain goal within a certain time scale, you might forefit how they learn best in order to *try* and get them where you want them by when you want. Therefore schooling 4 x a week for may not be desirable for some.

Would be interested to hear if it does work for people!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Ours school 4 times a week, 2 on, then a day off. And then a hack or a canter round the fields, and two days off a week.

 

[claracanter]

My horse's physio was chatting to me about a physio lecture she attended about top level horse fitness. It covered the olympic horses' preparation. This involved a programme of one day on followed by a day off and that the idea of riding six days a week is not now thought to be in the horses interest once it has achieved a certain level of fitness. In fact the trainer said 4 days a week was adequate giving time for full recovery, maintaining fitness and long term soundness. ( obviously there must be a few exceptions)
I know none of us are anywhere near this level but I thought it was interesting to bear in mind with winter coming and worrying about getting enough riding in.

 

[JGC]

Yes, totally agree and in all honesty, it could well be how they learn best. BUT, if you're an amateur trying to reach a certain goal within a certain time scale, you might forefit how they learn best in order to *try* and get them where you want them by when you want. Therefore schooling 4 x a week for may not be desirable for some.

Would be interested to hear if it does work for people!

That is an excellent point and it would be interesting if anyone has gone from a 4 times a week timetable to more schooling sessions with a comp in mind, say.

Ours school 4 times a week, 2 on, then a day off. And then a hack or a canter round the fields, and two days off a week.

Given CS and FiggyP's recent AF exploits, that's a ringing endorsement for this way of working

 

[Jango]

My horse works best when he isn't schooled two days in a row, so I tend to school 3x per week, say mon, thurs, sat then 2 x hack and 1 x poles/jump/lunge. Every other week one of my schooling will be a lesson and he ALWAYS get a day off before a show. However on a different horse that could be a disastrous routine. I do believe horses are generally happier with a varied/interesting life, I can't imagine 6 x week solid schooling is good for any horses mental wellbeing..

 

[humblepie]

I must admit it made me smile when i read about a racehorse that the trainer said he did something with (may have been first time up the main gallops or starting stall or something like that) then let it have the next day off to think about it. I rather like that approach. There is also the alternative interpretation (mine) that by doing something, the horse will then think that it was all just a dream and not let it get in the way of the important thing of eating. Not a very scientific answer. I tend to go more by what the weather is like, is it a day to hack or school.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I mainly do ridden showing not dressage but hope to next year my Arab is much better if I school then hack two days schooling makes him get a bit stuffy, and sometimes I might do a very slow hack then school the next day and his much better, I dont ride everyday between 4 & 6 days a weeks mainly and this works for us, he is quite fit so does not need intensive work everyday, and he quite enjoys a plod round some days although he is ridden properly when hacking no nose in the air allowed.

 

[Wheels]

That is an interesting concept but as others have said it has to be related to the horse you have in front of you. It does make sense I suppose to introduce something one day and then follow it up the next but I'm not sure I am proficient enough to teach something really well in one or two sessions.

It is also difficult for me with work to always know when during the week I can ride - I always do manage at least 4 sessions a week but they may not be sessions following each other. I also really love to hack so if I only rode 4 days in one week at least two of those would have to be hacking otherwise I'd drive myself mad never mind the horse!!

 

[HayleyUK]

I'd imagine to a lower level rider it'd translate over a number of weeks, so I'd be looking to 'show' the horse it on the first session, refine it a bit more on the 2nd session - let it think about it, pick back up on session 3 and chip away at the movement a bit more to refine it and so on... almost like the building blocks coming together over a couple of weeks & stepping back a bit if the horse gets 'stuck'

 

[JGC]

My horse's physio was chatting to me about a physio lecture she attended about top level horse fitness. It covered the olympic horses' preparation. This involved a programme of one day on followed by a day off and that the idea of riding six days a week is not now thought to be in the horses interest once it has achieved a certain level of fitness. In fact the trainer said 4 days a week was adequate giving time for full recovery, maintaining fitness and long term soundness. ( obviously there must be a few exceptions)
I know none of us are anywhere near this level but I thought it was interesting to bear in mind with winter coming and worrying about getting enough riding in.

That is very interesting to hear - did it relate to one of the specific disciplines, or was this for all the Olympic disciplines?

My horse works best when he isn't schooled two days in a row, so I tend to school 3x per week, say mon, thurs, sat then 2 x hack and 1 x poles/jump/lunge. Every other week one of my schooling will be a lesson and he ALWAYS get a day off before a show. However on a different horse that could be a disastrous routine. I do believe horses are generally happier with a varied/interesting life, I can't imagine 6 x week solid schooling is good for any horses mental wellbeing..

Yes, and Carl did specifically mention something about 6 days schooling a week being boring or words to that effect - I think mine would refuse to come out the stable/field by the sixth day!

I must admit it made me smile when i read about a racehorse that the trainer said he did something with (may have been first time up the main gallops or starting stall or something like that) then let it have the next day off to think about it. I rather like that approach. There is also the alternative interpretation (mine) that by doing something, the horse will then think that it was all just a dream and not let it get in the way of the important thing of eating. Not a very scientific answer. I tend to go more by what the weather is like, is it a day to hack or school.

LOL! I do wonder if the advantage of the day off is that it gives the horse time without another "lesson" to learn straight after, if that makes sense.

I mainly do ridden showing not dressage but hope to next year my Arab is much better if I school then hack two days schooling makes him get a bit stuffy, and sometimes I might do a very slow hack then school the next day and his much better, I dont ride everyday between 4 & 6 days a weeks mainly and this works for us, he is quite fit so does not need intensive work everyday, and he quite enjoys a plod round some days although he is ridden properly when hacking no nose in the air allowed.

I wonder if this is something that is specifically very good for warmbloods?

That is an interesting concept but as others have said it has to be related to the horse you have in front of you. It does make sense I suppose to introduce something one day and then follow it up the next but I'm not sure I am proficient enough to teach something really well in one or two sessions.

It is also difficult for me with work to always know when during the week I can ride - I always do manage at least 4 sessions a week but they may not be sessions following each other. I also really love to hack so if I only rode 4 days in one week at least two of those would have to be hacking otherwise I'd drive myself mad never mind the horse!!

I'm pretty sure that I've read that the CH's grooms take the horses out for 40-min hacks before they go in the school to warm up, so the system is pretty different to what the average bod with a full-time job would be able to manage and the horses are getting nice variety. My mare has to walk at least 20 mins before work or there is just no point trying to school, but it is hard to manage my time!

 

[JGC]

I'd imagine to a lower level rider it'd translate over a number of weeks, so I'd be looking to 'show' the horse it on the first session, refine it a bit more on the 2nd session - let it think about it, pick back up on session 3 and chip away at the movement a bit more to refine it and so on... almost like the building blocks coming together over a couple of weeks & stepping back a bit if the horse gets 'stuck'

Yes, I'd imagine it works that way for the better riders too - just on a whole other plane to us amateurs! Like when I work on changes with K, I'd do them a couple of times and then I leave it for a couple of weeks, yet when I go back to them later, they have invariably improved.

 

[Cortez]

I would make a distinction between schooling, as in actual, physical working of the muscles, and exercising or simple suppling. A muscle that has worked hard needs time to repair and build, so constant training will eventually break down the muscle, not improve it. So yes, most pro trainers in all disciplines will not "work" a horse more than 4-5 days a week, but they may be ridden more often, or turned out, or on a walker. I don't agree that amateur riders need to school more than pros; what they need to do is school better than they do do to achieve the same results, not more.

 

[AshTay]

What about the physical reasoning behind it?
I find that I ache the most the day after the day after a workout if I've been doing new stuff. Are horses the same? Does working them the again the very next day prevent the aches/stiffness that can develop 2 days after a workout?

Unless schooling sessions are long and very intense then it's hard to understand how they might be bored when they probably spend the other 23.5 hours of the day doing not much.

 

[Albertus H]

I'm the opposite end of the scale and showjump mine. He has 2 days off a week, 3 x schooling, 2 x jumping. Or if our week doesnt involve a show he is hacked out one of the jumping days. Weather and mood permitting! He isnt the easiest to hack shall we say. Although he's a jumper I think flatwork is the most important part of his training. He can alreday jump and knows how to so why do it more often than needed? Also I tend to do different exercises when we jump, grids, polework or if its courses I need to practice I will hire somewhere or build a tricky course at home. Very rarely just jump random single fences, I think its a pointless task and they don't learn anything! Seems to be working for him, just need to sort his spookiness out!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Can I just confirm if Carl said they are 'schooled' 4 days per week or 'ridden' 4 days per week (ie do they spend 3 days per week in the field mooching, or do they (perhaps) hack on a couple of the non-schooling days)?

I did have the programme on last night but, as ever, was multi-tasking, so although I heard the comment I didn't fully take it in (good job I'd also pressed record )!

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I think he meant schooled as he said 1st schooling sesh to introduce something and then second to re-affirm it and then a day off to think about it. Then repeat.

 

[JGC]

I would make a distinction between schooling, as in actual, physical working of the muscles, and exercising or simple suppling. A muscle that has worked hard needs time to repair and build, so constant training will eventually break down the muscle, not improve it. So yes, most pro trainers in all disciplines will not "work" a horse more than 4-5 days a week, but they may be ridden more often, or turned out, or on a walker. I don't agree that amateur riders need to school more than pros; what they need to do is school better than they do do to achieve the same results, not more.

What about the physical reasoning behind it?
I find that I ache the most the day after the day after a workout if I've been doing new stuff. Are horses the same? Does working them the again the very next day prevent the aches/stiffness that can develop 2 days after a workout?

Unless schooling sessions are long and very intense then it's hard to understand how they might be bored when they probably spend the other 23.5 hours of the day doing not much.

Very interesting points about the physical side.

I'm the opposite end of the scale and showjump mine. He has 2 days off a week, 3 x schooling, 2 x jumping. Or if our week doesn't involve a show he is hacked out one of the jumping days. Weather and mood permitting! He isnt the easiest to hack shall we say. Although he's a jumper I think flatwork is the most important part of his training. He can already jump and knows how to so why do it more often than needed? Also I tend to do different exercises when we jump, grids, polework or if its courses I need to practice I will hire somewhere or build a tricky course at home. Very rarely just jump random single fences, I think its a pointless task and they don't learn anything! Seems to be working for him, just need to sort his spookiness out!

I did wonder if this is a dressage-specific thing and I do think he was talking in the vein of training a GP horse, but it was a brief snippet!

Can I just confirm if Carl said they are 'schooled' 4 days per week or 'ridden' 4 days per week (ie do they spend 3 days per week in the field mooching, or do they (perhaps) hack on a couple of the non-schooling days)?

I did have the programme on last night but, as ever, was multi-tasking, so although I heard the comment I didn't fully take it in (good job I'd also pressed record )!

I'm waiting for it to come on again as I didn't record it! My memory is that he said they are ridden four times a week and then he said they work on something one day, confirm it the next and then have a day off in the field (I'm pretty sure he did say in the field) to think about it. Which sort of leaves another day unaccounted for, depending on how you interpret it.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Thanks P_P! I'll go back and watch the programme again properly when I get chance.

I've also heard something similar to claracanter's comments (from my physio) and, although I think those of us who event will probably raise an eyebrow at our ability to get/keep our horses fit enough for their job on 4 sessions per week, I do also think it's easy to fall into the trap of doing too much, drilling them unnecessarily, and essentially 'wearing them out' (mentally and physically).

 

[JGC]

I think he meant schooled as he said 1st schooling sesh to introduce something and then second to re-affirm it and then a day off to think about it. Then repeat.

Sorry, I missed this - we obviously heard two different things - MM, you'll have to get the recording on to help us out!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Sorry, I missed this - we obviously heard two different things - MM, you'll have to get the recording on to help us out!

Will do - and will report back!

 

[TarrSteps]

Eventers are different though as have to do more fitness work and have 3 skills to practice with only partial cross over.

Also, the fact is, that amount of riding is not enough for most RIDERS. At least some of the miles the average one or two horse rider is putting on the clock is for their own benefit. Big competition barns in the US often keep 'school' horses for clients to take jumping lessons on so they don't jump the legs off their competition horses working on their own issues.

Also, most owners ride for fun. They go hacking when their friends are going or compete when they have a lift. Horses get days on or off depending on their other commitments. This is not optimum for the horse's development, but what are you going to do? This is also why people with lots of family support often get on better - having a horsey mum to hack out a few times a week can make all the difference!

C'est la vie.

From experience though, I'd agree with that rhythm. It's a pretty standard concept. I think it also helps horses a lot to have different days with different riders. The 'grooms' at Carl's are super riders. From the bit I've seen, a couple of hacks with Alan would benefit many horses!

 

[Caol Ila]

My horse works at her best when she does dressage schooling for two consecutive days, maybe three, and then has a day off or day hacking or playing around on the cross-country course. Which I guess is more or less what Carl has said. However, it doesn't always work out this way. Our YO closes the XC course in the winter, so that stops being an option. Sometimes we jump in the school, but not often, as this involves me dragging jumps around and spending half the session hopping on and off the horse to mess with jumps and I find that all very tedious. If I can't make it to the yard until after 4pm for a few days running in the winter, we are in the school as I don't fancy hacking on the roads in the dark. Or maybe I can't be bothered on a particular day and then we will go hacking on a "schooling" day. Or if she has having a raging heat and will therefore be a lunatic on a hack, we will school as that gives her something to think about that's not the gypsy cob stallion up the road or her lesbian lover in the box across the aisle.

So it's not a strict regime (this is okay; unlike Carl, I am not preparing my horse for international competition) but it usually follows the general outline of what he has said.

 

[JGC]

Eventers are different though as have to do more fitness work and have 3 skills to practice with only partial cross over.

Also, the fact is, that amount of riding is not enough for most RIDERS. At least some of the miles the average one or two horse rider is putting on the clock is for their own benefit. Big competition barns in the US often keep 'school' horses for clients to take jumping lessons on so they don't jump the legs off their competition horses working on their own issues.

Also, most owners ride for fun. They go hacking when their friends are going or compete when they have a lift. Horses get days on or off depending on their other commitments. This is not optimum for the horse's development, but what are you going to do? This is also why people with lots of family support often get on better - having a horsey mum to hack out a few times a week can make all the difference!

C'est la vie.

From experience though, I'd agree with that rhythm. It's a pretty standard concept. I think it also helps horses a lot to have different days with different riders. The 'grooms' at Carl's are super riders. From the bit I've seen, a couple of hacks with Alan would benefit many horses!

Yes, that's a very good point about the amount of riding - I should declare that I have a vested interest as I have two in work. Very interesting about comp barns having school horses.

I'm sorry if groom sounds derogatory, it was just what I had read in H&R and English is not the language I use most often, so I do have a tendency to use odd words. I well aware that I couldn't ride one side of any of the horses on that yard - warm-up hack or not!

My horse works at her best when she does dressage schooling for two consecutive days, maybe three, and then has a day off or day hacking or playing around on the cross-country course. Which I guess is more or less what Carl has said. However, it doesn't always work out this way. Our YO closes the XC course in the winter, so that stops being an option. Sometimes we jump in the school, but not often, as this involves me dragging jumps around and spending half the session hopping on and off the horse to mess with jumps and I find that all very tedious. If I can't make it to the yard until after 4pm for a few days running in the winter, we are in the school as I don't fancy hacking on the roads in the dark. Or maybe I can't be bothered on a particular day and then we will go hacking on a "schooling" day. Or if she has having a raging heat and will therefore be a lunatic on a hack, we will school as that gives her something to think about that's not the gypsy cob stallion up the road or her lesbian lover in the box across the aisle.

So it's not a strict regime (this is okay; unlike Carl, I am not preparing my horse for international competition) but it usually follows the general outline of what he has said.

Yes, I theoretically ride mine five times a week, but holidays/shows/lessons/clinics/work etc mean that's rarely the case in reality.

 

[TarrSteps]

Sorry, I didn't mean anything by 'groom' - it's my language issue, not yours. 'Groom' where I come from usually means literally a care provider. Grooms may 'hack' (which doesn't always mean the same thing as it means here) but are not necessarily proficient riders.

 

[JGC]

Sorry, I didn't mean anything by 'groom' - it's my language issue, not yours. 'Groom' where I come from usually means literally a care provider. Grooms may 'hack' (which doesn't always mean the same thing as it means here) but are not necessarily proficient riders.

Oof, so long as we all agree then

 

[Baggybreeches]

This isn't really new. An old Show Jumping chap (which some oldies may remember), Carmen Lanni, used to work horses 4 days a week and give them 3 days off. He believed it kept them keen, fresh and sound. I also believe that a lot of horses are 'overworked' in that they do the high intensity stuff like schooling which is hard on their joints and not necessarily good for their wind.
Also it is said that nobody 'works' a horse harder than Charlotte, so I doubt if the likes of us rode them for a year we would get an ounce of the progress they do in 2 days!

 

[Firewell]

I don't think us normal people work our horses half as hard as professionals either in the same time frame. I ride 6x per week but between the chatty hacks and my idea of schooling I doubt I'm about to break my horse from overwork .
I've had lessons in the past from professionals who have worked us too hard IMO for the level we are at. (My horse doesn't need to jump solidly for an hr to to be fit enough to do a 90cm class) and it made me realise just how much harder some people do work their horses. In that case I can quite see how 4x a week is more than ebough even for an Olympic horse.