Schooling a sharp horse with others (large school) - advice pls!

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Tash88

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Hi everyone, I've had a few problems with my WB x TB (seven y/o) in the last few months but in general we are working on an upwards trajectory. He has always been rather straightforward to hack but can be difficult in the school. He tends to lack concentration and sometimes argue, to the extent where he will spin (and sometimes I'll be unseated, witness accounts say that they're 'unsittable') if he doesn't want to work or has a problem with something in the school, e.g. another horse, activity outside etc. In the past this has knocked my confidence, but I am coming through it now with the help (and emotional support) of my fantastic instructor and others at the yard.

He has had everything checked to ensure that there is no physical reason for his behaviour and I think that he is simply a sharp and slightly insecure horse; this is what his breeder (and my YO) told me and I've found that he needs to be constantly ridden forward and to know that I am 'there' for him. My confidence problems didn't do either of us much good really, but having discovered the triggers for his behaviour I feel I am in a better position to help him and develop our partnership.

However schooling when there is another horse in the school can still be a problem, and generally speaking will be the only time that he will spin. Sometimes he is fine, but if I am even slightly nervous he won't be and so will misbehave. My goal is to do a bit of unaffiliated dressage with him (he did well as a 5 y/o) but of course I will not be able to take him into a warm-up if he can't be ridden in an arena with other horses, so he needs to realise that he has to focus on what I am asking of him and that the other activity going on isn't a problem. Today I went for a hack with a friend, then when we got back we went straight into the school and I followed her, doing a circuit on each rein, and he was fine. I think I'm going to do this for a couple of weeks, then maybe lead with her behind me? Then we could circle away from each other before coming back together again?

I just want to get him used to being in the school with others, and to improve my confidence as well. I'm guessing that other people here would have had the same problem and could offer me some advice on helping him to accept other horses in the school and/or improving his concentration. He is a sweet horse and hasn't got a nasty bone in his body, he is just sensitive and anxious, and unfortunately a bit misunderstood sometimes. I have been told to sell him or not go in the school with him, but before making any decisions I want to give it my best shot, and I really do not want to give him up.

Anyway, before I ramble, any advice would be much appreciated.

Tash x
 
I have an extremely sharp pony who sounds like he does exactly the same as yours (except once he has spun he bolts). Keep his brain so busy he doesnt have time to think about the other horse. I rarely go 6 strides without doing something be it a circle a transition, leg yield, shoulder fore etc. If you tense he will tense so if you are feeling tense pop him on a small circle or do a 7 loop serpintine, anything to keep him bending (realy tight bends not 20m circles) and concentrating.
 
Yes keep him busy and listening to you, not looking for what the other horses are doing. As the above poster says, don't go more than half a side of the school withouy a transition, change of rein of school movement. Praise him vocally when he is doing what you ask.
 
Following this! Mine is the same, and the best I've found so far is getting the edge off him on the lunge before getting on. I know I need to pony-club boot him into the 'scary end' but when his response is a hairpin turn and galloping off it's flipping hard to get the leg on! (he just goes in the opposite direction... faster!). If I can tire him a little beforehand then generally I can keep his head turned away and get him over there (but one ear is always pinned on the Scary) but it's unnerving. I'd quite like to not get back on this week but that'll only make it worse so I must keep going :(
 
I agree with what other posters have said about keeping him busy. A good exercise to get them listening to you is; start of walking, then push him into trot, count 8 strides, then bring back to walk for 8 strides, go into trot for 7 strides, back into walk for 7 strides, into trot again for 6 strides, and back to walk for 6 strides, then trot for 5 strides, and walk for 5 strides, and keep doing this until you get down to 1 stride, after 1 stride of walk, go into trot for 5-6 strides and then rather than come back to walk, slow the trot right down, reaaalllly slow, and push back into a working trot. Then repeat on the other rein. I found this to be really good for getting them to listen to you and respond to your aids really well. you can do this while doing 20m circles, 10m circles, figures of 8, serpentines etc, so he really has a lot to think about and no time to think about the sorroundings. It worked for me anyway :) Good luck!
 
Thanks for the replies :)

Unfortunately the fact I came off during a lesson last Saturday (first time in 4 months which is pretty good) prompted this post, he was fine before the other horse came in (for the first 20 mins of a 45 min lesson, next rider didn't realise the clinic was running late and came in to warm up), then he was a bit 'looky' but okay in the trot, but having had 5 strides of canter he did an almighty spin, dropped his shoulder and bucked, I had no hope to be honest. The other horse went out, I got back on pushed him into trot and he tried it again, this time because a pigeon was flapping around; fortunately that time I stayed on but I was a bit nervous to do much else and my lesson time was up so I just walked him around on each rein. I was also in considerable pain (and still am) so probably wasn't as being as effective as I should have been. Have lunged and hacked since and he's been an angel, going in the school on Friday evening after work when it's nice and quiet; even though he works hard when I'm schooling him myself I've never had much of a problem with him, probably because I'm not so nervous.

I have to say that I'm relieved that nobody has told me to give up yet, I was thinking of posting before now but was nervous about what to say. I've been in a bit of an emotional mess about this the last few days, stress at work isn't helping, and it has really got me down, especially when I thought I was getting somewhere.

The exercises sound great, kind of like what I'm doing at the moment but tighter and more frequently! I always praise him vocally and he really responds well to that, and he also likes it when I scratch his withers if he's a bit tense, or as a praising thing. PingPongPony, the walk/trot transition exercise sounds fantastic as well, definitely one to try on Friday. I do a lot of walk/trot/halt transitions anyway but I think that actually counting them and applying a system to them will be really useful.

Again, the supportive and helpful replies are much appreciated,

Tash x
 
Have you considered something to help your nerves/ tenseness? Rescue remedy worked for me, my mare senses my stress and I found that a few drops of rescue remedy took the edge of my tension and as a result I don't tense her up. Some horses ( most) really react to rider nerves and so dealing with your neves is paramount to helping this issue IMO.
 
I totally agree Polly, to be honest I haven't tried Rescue Remedy for anything to do with horses but it is definitely worth a try. I have also done some research into rider confidence, breathing exercises and a friend has lent me a Mary Wanless book which I'm going to have a look at on a long train journey I have tomorrow :).

I'm pretty sure my current work stress didn't help either.
 
I agree with others that keeping him busy will help. Also, try taking him in the school when others are in there after a hack or a schooling session and just make him be a grandstand. Stand in the middle and let him watch until he is bored of the whole thing.
 
hey tash-I think I know you and I think it was me and my horse in the school with you on Saturday that caused your boy to lose the plot....!

nothing useful to say but my lad is pretty sane (apart from when mounting blocks fall over, sorry about that!) so if you ever want a nanny in the school or anywhere else let me know, I'd be more than happy to assist. sounds like a good plan to get him used to other horses around gradually :)
 
Yes I think it was you after having a little look at your profile and other posts :). I'm not very anonymous sometimes!

I didn't actually notice the mounting block falling over! And thank you for your offer, I/we are so lucky to be on a yard where everyone is so supportive. I'll probably see you at silly o'clock tomorrow morning!

I also think the 'grandstand' idea is a great one (sorry can't remember who suggested it) and riding him quietly, yet keeping him busy and listening. I also always choose to go in the school when there are quieter horses and riders in there. I think that baby steps will be the way forward (they have been when getting over other things) and hopefully he will become used to other horses sharing his space.

Thanks again,

Tash x
 
It's an interesting problem which we often have to deal with. Current 'problem children' include an 8 year old former stallion - just gelded; amd a 4 year old, just backed - who is good hacking with a companion but has a fit if there's someone else in the school.

We play with it a bit. Try bringing in the problem when something else is already in there, or working the problem for 10 minutes and then bringing in another. We avoid fights - so the other horse has to be sensible with its rider taking the problem into account. Yesterday, with the 4 year old, they took it in turn to work - one standing in the middle of the school while the other worked - then swapped over with the problem standing in the middle. That worked quite well with him and we'll repeat that once or twice and then try again to have them working together.
 
Maybe you could share some lessons with other liveries, we do Ladies Dressage, split the cost of the instructor, it would help you to have a trusted instructor on the ground while your boy comes to terms with sharing the arena, sounds like you have plenty of supportive liveries who would be patient & willing to share a lesson, and if you introduce sharing while in structured lesson it keeps both your minds busy..other horse/rider combinations in the arena are on the same rein/doing the same exercises! We've included plenty of quirky horses into our lessons to help out and used one of the more trusted mounts to lead, canter closer or to help other issues..but the key is the instructor giving you confidence and teaching you how to deal with it..won't take long it never has in our sessions for a quirky one to come good.
 
We work on this from the start .
They lunged while other horses are being walked off and we work three at time in the school when we can they just have to learn its part of life .
I sit on them while I shout at people .
I am awful in warm ups I hate it I have to be very careful I don't train my horses to be bad at it to.
 
I have had similar issues with mine, the trigger could be a horse entering the school, a horse leaving the school (usually worse), a horse being put out in a field, a horse being brought in from the field... I am sure you get the picture, basically any change to his little world! He is also very protective over his mate (born on the same day in the same field) and god forbid anyone gets too close or in between :(. I would prefer the quietly, quietly approach but this did not help, what worked was to keep him moving forward in trot (with someone shouting at me to start with) and constantly changing what I was doing to occupy his mind. There is a positive to this, I learnt to handle his behavior at its worst, he now cannot throw anything at me that I cannot handle and I just laugh when he has a tantrum.

Three years on he does not react anywhere near as badly, I wouldn't say he was perfect but he is now ok and we go out and about having lots of fun, so don't give up. There are things I have learnt to prevent the issues occurring i.e. I never warm up him up before a competition with his mate as this brings out the worst in both of them in and out of the ring; I have to make sure that I am not left in the warm up on my own (he can be in there to start with on his own but not left); and in lessons if both his mate and him are in a group we make everyone is aware not to get between them, there is one person I won’t have a group lesson with as he just does not get it.
 
Some brilliant advice so far, especially the movements to get his attention back on you.
Love the advice to make him a grandstand to watch others. It also might be an idea to ask someone to use their horse as a grandstand while you work him (even if this just means that they stand holding their horse rather than riding to start with). If he sees that the other horse is 'boring' and not doing anything worth being interested in then his attention will drift from it. Once his attention is elsewhere then the other horse can gradually build up to doing more exciting stuff, like walking around etc.
I would advise not to follow another horse around the arena, or even let them follow you, as that may make the other horse even more interesting and your horse more likely to be interested in what they are doing, especially if they think they are going to follow them everywhere they go or that what the other horse does will have an effect on what they will be asked to do. Also not ideal for a warm up at comps if your horse wants to follow everyone else around.
Agree with previous comments about attending clinics and lessons too to try and get him used to it more, but also that it will be best to explain to instructor and others within the group before hand to avoid any accidents or complaints.
Well done for persevering, I'm sure with your determination and the help of a knowledgeable instructor you will get to where you want to be eventually :)
 
I remember my trainer using a turn of phrase that suggests an idea. Her daughter had been riding her angel small pony and I came in for a lesson with my err challenging ride. I seem to be constantly looking for the thing that will trigger her bad behaviours so mentioned the pony. By this point, her young daughter had gone off and left the saintly chap in the school tacked up, what with small children having no attention span. I worried that this loose horse was going to be an issue, she said he wouldn't move (he really was a saint,) but also that all the horses found him completely non-threatening and barely noticed him. It all worked out as promised by the way, and saintly old chap just stood there until the end of my lesson...and from my horse's point of view he was practically invisible.

The key being non-threatening. Sounds like your horse is afraid/threatened by the others being in the school. Who knows how they come to these conclusions! So I think the grandstand idea is good, and having horses in but not working, and vice versa, may work. Good luck, he sounds educational!
 
Thanks again, it's reassuring and very encouraging to hear that others have been able to sort this out with their horses successfully. As a development of the 'grandstand' idea I think the idea of standing in the school with another horse working, then working whilst the other horse is standing in the middle sounds really good.

Interestingly he seems to be a bit better if he goes into the school when the other horse is already in there, and worse when we have been on our own and another horse comes in. Of course I can't not let someone else come into the school as that would be terribly rude and antisocial, so my horse needs to get over it. So could it be that he loses concentration because he now has a 'friend' when another horse comes in, or is it more that he feels threatened? Probably a bit of both.

I am also careful about who I share a school with, generally the people at the yard are great and follow the rules etc. but there are several people I wouldn't share with because they aren't very predictable, i.e. they will canter up your backside and then do a sharp turn just before they crash into you, or smack their horse really hard just as you are passing them. Not helpful at this stage!

I have taken part in small group lessons before with him and he has been okay, so that is my shorter term goal :)

Thanks, Tash x
 
now_loves_mares said:
I seem to be constantly looking for the thing that will trigger her bad behaviours so mentioned the pony.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I need to stop doing, it's great to know the triggers but not so helpful sometimes to be constantly looking for them. That's great that your mare was good though, do you find her better with other, slightly less saintly horses now?
 
Mine is godawful in company - very sharp and insecure, and we spent so much time riding alone that he would just rodeo any time any one else was riding at the same time. I lost a lot of confidence as he really hurt me a few times, and I got over it by hiring an indoor for lessons with another horse who he knew. We told the instructor his problem, and we kept him busy (lots of flex ion, lateral work and transitions) and eventually he stopped noticing his friend. Then we bitte bullet and went to some dressage, purely for te warm up. He had a few explosions, but got that we rode through them.

After that, I took the plunge to move from our quiet yard to a big yard of 40 horses where he regularly has to share the school. Being surrounded by lots of comings and goings, lots of horses, riding with others a large proportion of the time, he (and a big bit of it me because I got I anticipated it) has gotten over it. Now he is great - looks up when they come in/leave but gets on with his work. Confidence has made him a much sweeter, nicer character!
 
Have you tried any calmers? Another thing that can help a horse over this hurdle is ear plugs - which really helped me settle a very nervous horse ( he doesn't need them now. I'd make sure when he's hot and tense you aren't trying to ride out the tension concentrate on the move you are doing or if you really think he's going to blow take a huge ( head on knee) inside flexion. A horse with its head on your knee will find it hard to do any form of spook.
 
Thanks KW and BnB, my horse sounds a lot like KW's actually, and it is so nice to hear that you were able to get over it :). I am already on a big yard like the one you have moved to but I tend to avoid the times when there are lots of people coming and going. This is quite achievable as due to work I don't get to ride until about 7pm, when everyone else has gone home! But I want to be able to school whenever I want to without having a panic if another horse comes into the school; it isn't nice to be limited when I have a horse that is perfectly physically able to do what I ask of him. And I anticipate it as well so it's nice to hear that another 'worrier' was able to sort the issue out.

BnB - he is on magnesium and has been on it since November when the problems started; at that time I also stopped having a sharer because I found he is a bit of a one-person horse and he calmed down significantly after that. Ear plugs may be an option in the future, have you found them to be more effective than a fly veil? I used one in the summer and found that helped but haven't tried it in the winter when the flies haven't been around. The only thing that concerns me about a strong inside flexion is that he might fight it and then play up even more, also when he spins he only does so on the right rein and to the outside, so I have been advised to ride him more from the outside so that I have control of that side of him, if that makes sense?

Thanks again, Tash x
 
Mine can be similar to yours - lazy but to get out of working will pretend there are monsters. I'll start working her in her comfort zone where she won't spook then do what I can to get her attention popping in small circles or leg yield then when she's paying attention I'll go closer to the scary areas again popping in 10 metre circles or transitions or change of rein x
 
About the flexion - my instructor told me to hold him in the outside whilst flexing to the inside. I had to open the inside hand to ask for the flexion whilst supporting him in the outside. So both can work together.

I just had my monthly lesson with my flatwork instructor, and she says there is a huge difference in the way he goes - he isn't overreacting when things go wrong now. She also said I look more confident - I'm sitting in and riding him, sitting tall rather than defensively and look relaxed. She said that my confidence will have helped him a lot.

So looking back, I can see that all the exercises she gave me were great for multiple reasons. First, it got him concentrating on what he was doing, second the lateral work stretched him out so he wasn't tense, and third it got me riding him rather than sitting being worried. Having both of our attention on the work has given good results and therefore given us both confidence.

That's all you need - some tricks to stop you thinking about how he is going to react, get riding him, get him thinking, and you'll improve. Easier said than done I know, I was pant wettingly nervous at points with Geoff, but it does work.
 
I agree, keep him busy! Can you teach him some more difficult things? Turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches, shoulder in etc?
 
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