Schooling a young horse for dressage- How long?

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Winklepoker

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Looking at young ones like CS and the like, how long are your schooling sessions and how frequent to achieve such amazing results in a short time scale? I have been taught to keep to 20-30 mins but in that time after warming up/cooling off, I feel I havent progress much. Would be interested to hear your routines...
 
My baby has been backed for a short while, (a few weeks) we are only working on 1 schooling session per week, the rest hacking. I school her for around 25/30 mins this includes warming up and cooling off. I don't push her, just been working on transitions alot and bending exercises. I can tell when she has had enough as she tires easily and also i keep an eye on her breathing. :)
 
Progress will massively depend on your horses natural ability, work ethic, your experience and approach, and how this works with your horse. Those things will play a much bigger part in the speed of progress rather than adding an extra schooling session or having longer sessions. I don't think you can consider CS 'standard'! PS obv has a good eye for a horse and has got a horse with a wonderful attitude and natural ability, add to that an experienced and able rider with tuition too and you have much more as a package than the usual!

My mare isn't keen on schooling as her attitude isn't really right for it and her confo doesn't help her out - but we stick with it as having her going correctly is more pleasant for us both and will increase her working life (rather than slopping along on her forehand which used to be her prefered way of going!). We school no more than twice a week, but for about 50mins-hr each time, obv including warm up and cool down - that takes more than 1/2 the schooling time. Because of her feeling towards schooling, confo and general backwards way of thinking - after about 9 months of schooling and manners adjustment we are at the same place as some might expect a dressage bred 4 year old to be! Without the flashy paces though! Get a well put together horse, 'designed' for dressage and school little and often and you will wind up with a much more advanced horse.

Our sessions always start with a long rein warm up, lots of flexion and lateral work in walk before adding in trot and starting to pick the reins up. At the moment we are working on our counter canter so we'll spend about 5 - 10 mins on exercises in that and then cool down. The actual 'schooling' bit I guess is very small, but it is hard for her so we reward the effort rather than bashing away until we get a big result. Works for her and we are getting there! The warm up and cool down exercises are also 'improving' so it is all good work in the bank, rather than just concentrating on the 'new stuff' bit of the session.

So much depends on the attitude of your horse though, that and physical ability and fitness (inc mental fitness) - these will determine the length and frequency of your sessions.
 
40mins approx, incl warm up/cool down. 3 or 4 times a week.

a lot IS down to the horses natural way of going-CS is uphill, balanced and laterally supple naturally, so 9/10th of the way there, and has a good trainable brain-he doesnt anticipate or get worked up, so i CAN practice things a few times in a row and not make him hot/tense.

i certainly never aimed to have him where he is (schooling PSG half way through 6yo year) and to even consider doing an advanced this year seems a bit heady, but he's very very bright and on the button.

ok so on a just backed 3yo then 20mins is more than enough, but even a green 4yo needs to do more like 30/35/40mins in order to stretch,then progress, then cool down.
as long as you arent hammering them round, that increase in duration wont harm them, and certainly by 6yo 40min-an hour would be normal.
 
My 4 year old has low mileage even for his age because of my injury, but with my friend he is easily coping with an hour lesson (Inc long warm up and cool down time) but the day after he only gets maybe 20 mins to recap, longer than that and mentally it starts to show...not that he is naughty, but you can see him tire if he thinks he's shown you what he did the day before but keep asking for much more.
 
Mine is 5 and I tend to do around 30 mins maybe 40 in school, twice a week. Our school is quite small so I am careful how long I do - if we had a larger space/better surface I woul poss go in there more often.
 
I read an article the other day where Carl Hester said he only works his horses 4 times a week the rest of the time they are on the walker/in a field. But during those 4 days they get a 30minute hack, 10min warm up, then schooled then 10minute cool down so they work quite hard on their days they are working.

Ive got a 3yr old and to be honest hes doing very little, i exercise him 2 maybe 3 times a week and its all varied work generally long reining in the arena followed by some jumping/poles on the lunge, or me riding him in the school in walk and trot, or riding him around our gallops. I also take him for in hand walks round the lanes. Im in no hurry with him though. He will be off any work from end of September to end of February when he will come back into work ready for the YH classes.

At this point I will be schooling him twice a week (followed by a ride around our gallops), lunging once a week and hacking out once a week the rest of the time he will be off (he lives out aswell). Schooling sessions will be around 30mins including warming up (cool off will be around the gallops).
 
I'm always a bit surprised at the diminishing return of working horses often, as it's so against the "practice, practice, practice, if it doesn't hurt you're doing it wrong" ethos so many people are taught with horses.

Yes, you absolutely have to practice but, as they say, it's only perfect practice that makes perfect so just doing things over and over and over is actually more likely to send you down tangents than speed the pace of improvement.

I find 4-5 days/week max for a young horse is optimum, although ideally I'll have some flexibility so the horse can, say, school two days in a row in order to test or consolidate something. And some weeks the horse might do less, some weeks it might do more days in a row (say at a show) then have a bit more of a break. But when they are working, they're working - I don't think there is any point in asking for something you're not prepared to follow through on. It doesn't kill a young horse to sweat once and awhile, although if you're HAVING to that work hard every day then there's probably something wrong.

What really interests me is how often leaving a horse for a few days after an intense period can produce an improvement. I swear they go away and think about it. ;)
 
my 3yo (just broken) is twice a week for 15/20 mins in teh school she is also lunged once and hacked once well walked around the farm

the 4yo is schooled for 30 mins once a week then is hacked and sometimes before this is schooled for 10 mins
 
It really does depend on the horse for me, my current 4yo does around 4-5 days a week of schooling & hacking. Schooling wise we only do 20-30 mins, but it's always a productive session im very clear cut & he is progressing so fast even i have to remind myself he's 4yo.

We take him to my trainer twice a month over one long weekend normally a Friday lesson & a Sunday lesson.
On the saturday in between the lessons he has a rest day, my trainer always asks how he's gone on the Sat & i always say he hasnt he was in the field. It never seems to do him any harm & he comes out on the Sunday better for the rest as like Tarsteps has said he seems to think about what he's done the day before.

My trainer on the other hand likes to sit on the youngsters everyday, again only working them sometimes for 20 mins. I just dont feel the need to do this with my young boy i like him to have rest days.
 
Thanks everyone for the input, my boy has just turned 6 and had quite a late start really, we are currently doing 3 days schooling 2 lungeing, 1 hack and a rest day. He isnt keen on the old hacking and has a very trainable and relaxed attitude in the school. 1 of his 3 schooling sessions is pole work to break up the daily grind ;) but while he is coming on a treat and responding well with help of 2 training sessions per month. I just feel a little stuck day to day on the progression factor. Stepping back and comparing how he felt 4 months ago, there is a huge difference but day to day it is hard to see progression which I think has a lot to do with a lack of focus on teaching 1 new thing at a time. How do you all list progression? If you have w,t and canter - on and back in each and basic lateral (yeild, s-in in walk and trot) where would you go next?
 
That's kind of where mine is now winklepoker - needs more work in canter but s-in and leg yield established in walk and trot, my next thing to work on is improving his canter, using walk to canter and also canter to walk. Also want to establish mediums over next couple of months.
 
That's interesting thanks PS, just started rein back, he does s-in in trot, will use that to work on medium trot, walk canter walk is next thing on list, and he already does a fairly passable (large!) attempt at walk pirouettes so sounds like we are following about the right path.
 
My four year old gets ridden 3 or 4 times a week, for about 20-30 mins with lots of breaks/stretches. Possibly going for a pootle down the road. We also have a one hour lesson (quite intense) once a fortnight. She copes with this fine.
 
Winklepoker said:
Looking at young ones like CS and the like, how long are your schooling sessions and how frequent to achieve such amazing results in a short time scale? I have been taught to keep to 20-30 mins but in that time after warming up/cooling off, I feel I havent progress much. Would be interested to hear your routines...
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I'm rather concerned (and I don't mean the OP in particular) by the haste people seem to have to be doing as much as possible in as short a timescale as possible. I read all the time about so and so doing so well at such and such a level, but their horse is having a meltdown before even getting in the ring and more often than not the results are only average, so WHAT is the point? So you can say you're competing at such and such a level? It's all very well to say that SJers and eventers are more at risk of injury than dressage horses, but what about their mental well-being? I've so often had to work with horses that have been 'overcooked' by riders determined to get the most out of them. Really gets up my nose.
 
Its all about feel and no horse is the same, so the short answer is properly work 3-4 times a week but very often if the work is good no more than 20 mins discounting warm up and cool down. The secret is not to be stuck on a policy read the horse and if you are not in the right frame go and play.
 
"I read all the time about so and so doing so well at such and such a level, but their horse is having a meltdown before even getting in the ring and more often than not the results are only average, so WHAT is the point? So you can say you're competing at such and such a level? "

paranoia alert-aimed at me?????


yes CS is sharp in the warm up, nothing to do with anything other than being an ex racer who hasnt quite got over it yet.plenty of horses are daft for 10/15mins when you get on at a show, mine is never the only one looping the loop!!!!
his regionals results were distinctly average due to tiredness (my fault i admit), but prior to that i dont think several 70% at elem, mid 60's at medium, and a first adv med score of 61 is average at all.
he can be quirky, but thats why he was cheap! and i dont mind quirky in the warm up/lessons if quirky goes in and wins most of the time!!!!
believe me when i say the horse is being actively held back training wise but is more than capable of the level he competes at. i *could* sat at elem all year and get 70% every time, but thats pot hunting and ive no desire to keep doing it. im aiming for GP, so it would also be pointless.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
"I read all the time about so and so doing so well at such and such a level, but their horse is having a meltdown before even getting in the ring and more often than not the results are only average, so WHAT is the point? So you can say you're competing at such and such a level? "

paranoia alert-aimed at me?????
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Erm do I know you?

yes CS is sharp in the warm up, nothing to do with anything other than being an ex racer who hasnt quite got over it yet.plenty of horses are daft for 10/15mins when you get on at a show, mine is never the only one looping the loop!!!!
his regionals results were distinctly average due to tiredness (my fault i admit), but prior to that i dont think several 70% at elem, mid 60's at medium, and a first adv med score of 61 is average at all.
he can be quirky, but thats why he was cheap! and i dont mind quirky in the warm up/lessons if quirky goes in and wins most of the time!!!!
believe me when i say the horse is being actively held back training wise but is more than capable of the level he competes at. i *could* sat at elem all year and get 70% every time, but thats pot hunting and ive no desire to keep doing it. im aiming for GP, so it would also be pointless.
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Right, well, since you mention it, if your horse hasn't got over being an ex-racer, then doesn't he deserve more time to get over it? You were aware he had issues and was quirky so in the interests of the horse would you not have factored this into your training and goals? You are aiming for GP with a horse who still has obvious baggage from his previous job... you can still DO GP, but take longer about it so he can adapt to the stresses of competition. You seem to be striving for your personal goal regardless of your horse. I just don't get the haste; I don't see how this benefits either you or him in the long run.
 
Pachamama said:
Erm do I know you?


Right, well, since you mention it, if your horse hasn't got over being an ex-racer, then doesn't he deserve more time to get over it? You were aware he had issues and was quirky so in the interests of the horse would you not have factored this into your training and goals? You are aiming for GP with a horse who still has obvious baggage from his previous job... you can still DO GP, but take longer about it so he can adapt to the stresses of competition. You seem to be striving for your personal goal regardless of your horse. I just don't get the haste; I don't see how this benefits either you or him in the long run.
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Completely disagree! My old horse was produced slowly but knew he's job he was sharp and abit loopy at a competition like CS and after the intial warm-up went in and always achieved very good results he competed from a 4yr old to a 15 yr old and didnt change. He done a bit of everything and had a good routine in hes life. I think if they havent got that fire in there belly they dont stand out and just look like a typical nag and CS uses he's quirkiness in a good way he always look fab from the pictures ive seen and using every muscles in hes body and is very switched on. I say good luck princess sparkle he is clearly thriving with you and as you say so what if hes a bit of a queen in the warm up for 10 mins better that than having to kick kick kick something thats died before its started!
 
My horse can be explosive in the warm up for the initial 15/20 odd mins and once he gets on with his job he settles. I think competition horses know they are about to perform and get that adrenaline rush, being horses they often react in a flight response way to that.
I don't think that is always to do with rushing a horse, if it was then my old 26yr old horse who sat on someone landrover in excitement at one of his last shows was rushed for the best part of quarter of a century :).

Some horses are rushed but that's not the case with PS and CS (have you seen her pics?
Amazing!!).

I don't think schooling for 45 mins 3/4 times a week is that hard work as long as they have regular breaks. Mine is barely sweating after an hours work with our dressage trainer as he gets a 5 min walk on the buckle after every 10 mins of concentrated work.
 
And let's not forget that a LOT of horses that know their job get extremely wound up in the warmup. I regularly bounce from the lorry to the dressage, and I have to 'manage' the XC start pretty carefully too - and I'd say it's pretty normal to see that out eventing. My horse is 11 and has got worse as he has got to know his job - my task is to sit quietly, get him in the start box at the right time and facing the right way, and be ready for him to explode out of it. Likewise it is pointless doing anything other than sitting out the way on the way to the dressage warmup. But he does the job in the ring, which means everything else is fine by me. I'm not sure why a decent dressage horse should be any different really - a great deal of horses know what's coming and act accordingly when they first hit the warmup - doesn't mean they are rushed as youngsters!
 
BeckyCandy said:
Completely disagree! My old horse was produced slowly but knew he's job he was sharp and abit loopy at a competition like CS and after the intial warm-up went in and always achieved very good results he competed from a 4yr old to a 15 yr old and didnt change. He done a bit of everything and had a good routine in hes life. I think if they havent got that fire in there belly they dont stand out and just look like a typical nag and CS uses he's quirkiness in a good way he always look fab from the pictures ive seen and using every muscles in hes body and is very switched on. I say good luck princess sparkle he is clearly thriving with you and as you say so what if hes a bit of a queen in the warm up for 10 mins better that than having to kick kick kick something thats died before its started!
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Firstly I'd like to clarify that my first post was not about anyone on the forum. It was drawn from personal experience and I don't think I said anything that outrageous; Lots of horses ARE produced and pushed FAR too young and suffer for it mentally was well as physically; just look on Project Horses any day of the week.
Princess Sparkle chose to assume my post was about her. Initially baffling, but on reading her response, less so. But still mistaken.
My SECOND post WAS about her, and it was based on her own comments about her horse. As an ex racer he would've been backed and in work very young, FAR younger than most other horses. It is common knowledge that a lot of ex racers carry issues from their racing days WELL into later life. I'm very aware that some horses never settle very well into competitive life and are always hot in the warm up, but that's not what I was talking about. I suggested, and I don't think I said anything very barmy, that given his early start in working life, Princess Sparkle's horse might benefit from a slower pace up the grades. He may well never settle, but why shouldn't he be given a chance and what's the hurry? He's 6 years old!
 
the warm up for an elem is no different to the warm up for an adv medium though...................if i stuck at the same level for 5 years i doubt it would make any difference to him walking in to the warm up on two legs!!!!

can you explain exactly HOW you would train him not to be sharp for 15mins?
 
Pachamama said:
Firstly I'd like to clarify that my first post was not about anyone on the forum. It was drawn from personal experience and I don't think I said anything that outrageous; Lots of horses ARE produced and pushed FAR too young and suffer for it mentally was well as physically; just look on Project Horses any day of the week.
Princess Sparkle chose to assume my post was about her. Initially baffling, but on reading her response, less so. But still mistaken.
My SECOND post WAS about her, and it was based on her own comments about her horse. As an ex racer he would've been backed and in work very young, FAR younger than most other horses. It is common knowledge that a lot of ex racers carry issues from their racing days WELL into later life. I'm very aware that some horses never settle very well into competitive life and are always hot in the warm up, but that's not what I was talking about. I suggested, and I don't think I said anything very barmy, that given his early start in working life, Princess Sparkle's horse might benefit from a slower pace up the grades. He may well never settle, but why shouldn't he be given a chance and what's the hurry? He's 6 years old!
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From everything I've read it seems clear that PS's horse thrives on the work he's doing, he is not being pushed. Sharpness in the warm up is VERY common, especially among ex racers (I have one, and yes he's sharp in the warm up). The only way for them to get over it, is to do it. And the fact that CS is performing in the ring more and more as he does at home suggests that he's much happier at a comp than many horses.

That's my take on it anyway ;)
 
Before this becomes a heated discussion about pushing and youngsters, it would be well for all of us to remember that everyone has their own views on riding/training, and that the proof is ultimately in the long-term results. There are quite a few horses on this forum doing very well - not all post as much as one or two, but they are here. Some are being brought on more slowly than others, and the approach for each one both in management and training differs. In the long-term, only time will tell.

What I would say in response to the OP - is listen to your horse. Play with different combinations of things and see how they respond. Consider strength, mental attitude and interest. Look at what you need to build and search out exercises that will do this - do they involve hill work, or lateral work, or de-spooking by hacking....? Then try to address these while keeping the work varied - jumping is fun and can greatly improve the trot and canter, hacking is good for strength, lungeing for learning about circles...
 
Usually the evidence doesn't come out that a young horse has been pushed too far until further into their career when it all goes wrong. There are many young horses that look so promising, and get pushed, and then they drop off the radar and you never hear about them again.

In response to the initial question, I echo mystiandsunny's last paragraph. Always work towards a happy healthy horse both in mind and in body.
 
mystiandsunny said:
Before this becomes a heated discussion about pushing and youngsters, it would be well for all of us to remember that everyone has their own views on riding/training, and that the proof is ultimately in the long-term results. There are quite a few horses on this forum doing very well - not all post as much as one or two, but they are here. Some are being brought on more slowly than others, and the approach for each one both in management and training differs. In the long-term, only time will tell.

What I would say in response to the OP - is listen to your horse. Play with different combinations of things and see how they respond. Consider strength, mental attitude and interest. Look at what you need to build and search out exercises that will do this - do they involve hill work, or lateral work, or de-spooking by hacking....? Then try to address these while keeping the work varied - jumping is fun and can greatly improve the trot and canter, hacking is good for strength, lungeing for learning about circles...
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What sensible advice.

I'm afraid I don't agree with pushing horses along too quickly. For me it's more about the whole package, I like to produce a sane sensible horse that can cope with questions asked of it without stressing.

With regards to some of the posts above about behaviour in the warm up, there is a huge difference between the warm ups at BE (usually a field with room to burn off excess energy without endangering the other competitors or frightening their horses) and BD where you often have to warm up in a 40x20 fenced arena with a number of other horses and nowhere to escape if another horse is having a meltdown.

When B used to compete a pony she often felt very scared when other bigger horses had a meltdown, it's not nice having another horses feet pass close to your head whilst you are trying to warm up and settle your own horse, in a fenced arena you can't necessarily get out of the way. Now she is on Hec at 16.3 it's not quite so intimidating. If you can't control the behaviour of your horse in a busy warm up then I question whether you should be in there at all.

One last thing, Pachamama is a fairly new poster we don't know anything about him/her yet some people are hurling insults! For all we know it could be Carl Hester!!!!

No wonder this board has a reputation for bitchiness and ganging up on Newbies.

Lecture over!
 
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