Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen a single insult? 
Schooling a young horse for dressage- How long?
- Thread starter Winklepoker
- Start date
Thistle
Well-Known Member
The only reason I would agree with the negative comments is out of Jealousy and Bitterness
Accusing a poster of jealousy and bitterness is fairly insulting and unecessary. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned!
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
I must have missed that post. Still, I reckon I must have a thick skin, as that wouldn't rile me much 
Saratoga
Well-Known Member
It does amuse me how those that don't agree with the crowd, or like to have a say in what they believe in, are very quickly labelled 'jealous and bitter'.
rowy
Well-Known Member
I backed my 4 year old in april and I school him twice a week for 2- 30 minutes.
We start doing stretchy work and then do canter work (with a few min break walking round) and then work on suppling work in the trot towards the end when he is more relaxed.
He also gets twice a week hacking for up to about 1 hour.
He has come on a lot doing just this and is a lot more balanced now in trot and canter and his transitions have really come along and we are now working towards doing our first prelim 14th september. He will then get a break from competing over the winter and we will concentrate on his schooling and getting him up to novice level for next year and do a bit of jumping as well.
We start doing stretchy work and then do canter work (with a few min break walking round) and then work on suppling work in the trot towards the end when he is more relaxed.
He also gets twice a week hacking for up to about 1 hour.
He has come on a lot doing just this and is a lot more balanced now in trot and canter and his transitions have really come along and we are now working towards doing our first prelim 14th september. He will then get a break from competing over the winter and we will concentrate on his schooling and getting him up to novice level for next year and do a bit of jumping as well.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
I hope I wasn't insulting - I wasn't intending to be! But the problem is, what if your horse literally only behaves like that when there is atmosphere? How can you desensitise them without going into a warmup? I know I can stand around on a loose rein in group lessons, clinics, schooling, at dressage shows etc - but add in the tannoy and the 'eventing' feeling and it's a whole different ball game. There is no way to desensitise a horse to that without going to a show and warming up and sitting it out.
I do see your point about a fenced arena, but equally, in a 'field' this year I have been mown down twice by pros on youngsters which lost the plot - completely without warning, no time to do much except throw the reins at my horse and kick to get them out the way, and hope that said young horse stops before the string! Once I was bounced off, the other time the horse changed direction (and I started a mental countdown as to when the pro would hit the deck - they thankfully did not!). So I reckon it happens everywhere.
Pachamama
Well-Known Member
And are the demands of the test no different? How can the warm up for an easier test be the same as the harder one?
I can see you're far too defensive to be able to take part in any useful exchange of opinions, so I shall withdraw from this particular discussion.
And if I could explain exactly HOW I would train your horse not to be sharp for 15mins I wouldn't be suggesting you take it slower, would I?
Pachamama
Well-Known Member
The only reason I would agree with the negative comments is out of Jealousy and Bitterness
"Hey there's someone that disagrees!! Quick, lets all accuse him/her of jealousy and bitterness!! That'll shut him/her up MUCH better than rational discussion"
Reputation for bitchiness eh?? Hmmm, wonder where that came from then.
Ginn
Well-Known Member
I read this a while ago and saved it as thought it was quite poignant
"A few years ago I had the privilege to watch the great German master the late Reiner Klimke preparing his horses for an international competition at Goodwood. The work was simple, structured and straightforward - the priority being to take out any stress and to make the horse supple and obedient ready for the hard work to be done in the arena. What he did not do was practise piaffe, pirouettes, passage, changes or any of the Grand Prix movements. After the competition I had a chat with Herr Klimke and mentioned that I was surprised how little he had done with Ahlerich before going into the arena. His reply to my rather dumb question was:
"If you can ride down the centre line, halt at X, proceed to the C marker, turn left or right and ride the corner and receive 10 marks for the movement your horse is ready for Grand Prix and you will certainly win."
The message here is simple - if the basics have been trained and worked correctly, the advanced movements will be easy." (R Taylor)
So even though the requirements of a test may be different, which will result from correct training, the warm up does not need to be, nor should it act as a training ground, and for a well trained horse more advanced test movements will not necessarily need to be practiced in a warm up....
Certainly food for thought!
"A few years ago I had the privilege to watch the great German master the late Reiner Klimke preparing his horses for an international competition at Goodwood. The work was simple, structured and straightforward - the priority being to take out any stress and to make the horse supple and obedient ready for the hard work to be done in the arena. What he did not do was practise piaffe, pirouettes, passage, changes or any of the Grand Prix movements. After the competition I had a chat with Herr Klimke and mentioned that I was surprised how little he had done with Ahlerich before going into the arena. His reply to my rather dumb question was:
"If you can ride down the centre line, halt at X, proceed to the C marker, turn left or right and ride the corner and receive 10 marks for the movement your horse is ready for Grand Prix and you will certainly win."
The message here is simple - if the basics have been trained and worked correctly, the advanced movements will be easy." (R Taylor)
So even though the requirements of a test may be different, which will result from correct training, the warm up does not need to be, nor should it act as a training ground, and for a well trained horse more advanced test movements will not necessarily need to be practiced in a warm up....
Certainly food for thought!
caterpillar
Well-Known Member
Pachamama
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't have done if you hadn't waded in assuming I was talking about youthank you for the supportsorry this has become a bit of a ps/cs thread
wench
Well-Known Member
Depends on the horse...
When I was "schooling" my 3yo ex racer earlier on this year (before she had a break), it would have very easy to get carried away with her, as she was very balanced and keen to work, went nicely (wasnt in an outline, just going forwards nicely). I did try and limit sessions to 15 mins max once a week.
When I was "schooling" my 3yo ex racer earlier on this year (before she had a break), it would have very easy to get carried away with her, as she was very balanced and keen to work, went nicely (wasnt in an outline, just going forwards nicely). I did try and limit sessions to 15 mins max once a week.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
the first 15mins of an elem warm up are EXACTLY the same as the first 15mins of an adv med warm up, and thats when he is sharp and can be silly. he rarely puts a toe out of line in a test, and when he does, its greeness/keeness rather than a meltdown. and he is allowed mistakes at his age. so again i repeat-the level of the test is not the issue, its walking in to a crowded warm up and learning to settle better/quicker, which only comes by doing it MORE.
at home, its mainly basics basics basics. tonight after stretching in w/t/c, he did some nice trot/walk/trot transitions, some rein back direct to trot, some walk/canter/walk and a bit of shoulder in.
because the basics ARE so well instilled and the above got him 100% through and off the leg, he was then able to do a serpentine with flying changes ONCE because he got it right that first time, and play with a bit of piaffe (as IMO he should be at 6, baby steps, no pressure, but learning it a little), probably asked for it twice on each rein, about 4 steps each time.
there is no drilling/repetition/pushing in this horses life.
he's a naturally talented horse, the basics are very correct, and thus i dont need to push for the higher level work, its bubbling just under the suface, as it should be
i feel like i had to say that, to clear up the fact that he isnt doing the high level stuff day in day out, because there seems to be a myth that if a horse works to a higher than average level when young, that it MUST be being thrashed.not so.
at home, its mainly basics basics basics. tonight after stretching in w/t/c, he did some nice trot/walk/trot transitions, some rein back direct to trot, some walk/canter/walk and a bit of shoulder in.
because the basics ARE so well instilled and the above got him 100% through and off the leg, he was then able to do a serpentine with flying changes ONCE because he got it right that first time, and play with a bit of piaffe (as IMO he should be at 6, baby steps, no pressure, but learning it a little), probably asked for it twice on each rein, about 4 steps each time.
there is no drilling/repetition/pushing in this horses life.
he's a naturally talented horse, the basics are very correct, and thus i dont need to push for the higher level work, its bubbling just under the suface, as it should be
i feel like i had to say that, to clear up the fact that he isnt doing the high level stuff day in day out, because there seems to be a myth that if a horse works to a higher than average level when young, that it MUST be being thrashed.not so.
amandaco2
Well-Known Member
when i first started B off and K and P, they did about 25mins and alot of that was walking and trying to get them to stay relaxed
once they were ready mentally and physically the work increased as it needed really
now a year in B is doing about 40mins but alot of that is warm up and cool down (prob 20mins alt)
i also like to vary so sometimes i will walk them around the gallop to warm up and cool off to keep the walk naturally forward
i like to train them whatever they find easy within reason. eg
with P she is extremely forward naturally and found everything easy- except being still. so she learnt alot more of the 'harder' stuff like her HP etc before she was able to do a truely decent halt or be calm and do a good walk without adding her own moves in! she would have learnt piaffe VERY easily from the word go BUT i didnt want her to as then the halting/ walk work would have been even harder.... so although i like to train them at what they find easy (eg K finds canter easier than the same work in trot so her lateral work was learnt at canter first) it depends to a certain extent on what it is they find easy... if its something that would make the other stuff harder to train, then i wont push that until later...
so i think it has to be done on each horses merits. some progress in certain things quicker than others.
once they were ready mentally and physically the work increased as it needed really
now a year in B is doing about 40mins but alot of that is warm up and cool down (prob 20mins alt)
i also like to vary so sometimes i will walk them around the gallop to warm up and cool off to keep the walk naturally forward
i like to train them whatever they find easy within reason. eg
with P she is extremely forward naturally and found everything easy- except being still. so she learnt alot more of the 'harder' stuff like her HP etc before she was able to do a truely decent halt or be calm and do a good walk without adding her own moves in! she would have learnt piaffe VERY easily from the word go BUT i didnt want her to as then the halting/ walk work would have been even harder.... so although i like to train them at what they find easy (eg K finds canter easier than the same work in trot so her lateral work was learnt at canter first) it depends to a certain extent on what it is they find easy... if its something that would make the other stuff harder to train, then i wont push that until later...
so i think it has to be done on each horses merits. some progress in certain things quicker than others.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Avoiding like the plague the above detour . . .
It has been my education and and personal experience that it's also possible to go TOO slowly with a young horse, particularly a talented, quick learning one. They are always learning and if they're not learning the right things then they're learning the wrong things! And there are "learning windows", both physical and mental, which open and close at particular times so waiting to teach a horse something strenuous IN MODERATION WITH UNDERSTANDING is not necessarily the best for the horse in the long run. Just like it's easier to learn a skill in childhood and that youthful physical exercise develops a strong, healthy adult body, young horses are resilient and adaptive in ways that they may not continue to be later. This is not, of course, a license to go wild but it's not true that we have endless opportunities to optimise our horses' metal and physical development.
One example I can think of is flying changes. (People are obsessed with them in North America because they are essential in our version of "showing" and a horse without them is all but useless for that job.) There is very definitely a window where able horses learn them easily and if you let it open and close they will require much more drilling and may never do them as fluently. So is this easier on the horse or harder? A talented horse, educated at the right time, will take much less time and effort to perfect the movement.
I was at a clinic with Klaus Balkenhol and someone asked how and when he teaches piaffe. He said he takes the young horses out at dinner time then stops them from hurrying home. They (being naturally that way inclined, of course) do a few half steps, the rider applies the aids (even though the horse won't get the connection at this point) the horse get lots of praise and home to dinner.
Play with it a few times in different situations as the horse offers itself up then, when the real work starts, the horse already has an inkling of what is being asked and a good, relaxed feeling about it. Off course this is a bit of humour but I thought the idea was essential to good horsemanship - encourage the horse into the activity when it is likely to offer it, praise it fully, make the quiet connection to the "asking" and, as much as possible, let it come organically. Of course, he also said he has no use for draw reins or any other devices used to to control extravagant young horses because he has an endless supply of big, strong, farm boy apprentices!
I think there is also a big difference between a horse bred and built for the job and one that's not naturally gifted. This is not to say the latter horse might not come on but it will take a lot more work, with the commensurate risk of injury and wear and tear. People might be surprised how little many young horses produced by good professionals do. This is actually one of my "issues" with Young Horse classes - people seem to think they are developmental classes suitable for all but really they were developed as "talent spotting" classes for only the most able potential super stars.
It has been my education and and personal experience that it's also possible to go TOO slowly with a young horse, particularly a talented, quick learning one. They are always learning and if they're not learning the right things then they're learning the wrong things!
And there are "learning windows", both physical and mental, which open and close at particular times so waiting to teach a horse something strenuous IN MODERATION WITH UNDERSTANDING is not necessarily the best for the horse in the long run. Just like it's easier to learn a skill in childhood and that youthful physical exercise develops a strong, healthy adult body, young horses are resilient and adaptive in ways that they may not continue to be later. This is not, of course, a license to go wild but it's not true that we have endless opportunities to optimise our horses' metal and physical development.One example I can think of is flying changes. (People are obsessed with them in North America because they are essential in our version of "showing" and a horse without them is all but useless for that job.) There is very definitely a window where able horses learn them easily and if you let it open and close they will require much more drilling and may never do them as fluently. So is this easier on the horse or harder? A talented horse, educated at the right time, will take much less time and effort to perfect the movement.
I was at a clinic with Klaus Balkenhol and someone asked how and when he teaches piaffe. He said he takes the young horses out at dinner time then stops them from hurrying home. They (being naturally that way inclined, of course) do a few half steps, the rider applies the aids (even though the horse won't get the connection at this point) the horse get lots of praise and home to dinner.
Play with it a few times in different situations as the horse offers itself up then, when the real work starts, the horse already has an inkling of what is being asked and a good, relaxed feeling about it. Off course this is a bit of humour but I thought the idea was essential to good horsemanship - encourage the horse into the activity when it is likely to offer it, praise it fully, make the quiet connection to the "asking" and, as much as possible, let it come organically. Of course, he also said he has no use for draw reins or any other devices used to to control extravagant young horses because he has an endless supply of big, strong, farm boy apprentices! I think there is also a big difference between a horse bred and built for the job and one that's not naturally gifted. This is not to say the latter horse might not come on but it will take a lot more work, with the commensurate risk of injury and wear and tear. People might be surprised how little many young horses produced by good professionals do. This is actually one of my "issues" with Young Horse classes - people seem to think they are developmental classes suitable for all but really they were developed as "talent spotting" classes for only the most able potential super stars.