Schooling question about nagging with the legs

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royal

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HI guys,

ok so we all know that nagging with the legs is a big no-no...but...
my mare is sooo lazy its untrue - over the 5 yrs I've had her, we have tried just about every trick and technique in the book...(she is on sodium bicarb for her tying up and as the lactic acid has been reduced, she has got a little better so no doubt her muscles haven't always been functioning AOK)...
so now if apply a strong squeeze, we do get more forward impulsion however, it drops off after a few strides, so I'm finding myself having to apply leg again and now am worrying that its turning into leg nagging...
I do back up with the whip, but to be honest a good leg aid has more response than the whip does..

Anyone have any thoughts about this leg nagging issue and how to keep the impulsion without having to use the leg again after 5/6 strides?

ps. we have and still do all the usual schooling techniques of transitions, halt-trot, half halts etc plus have tried a wip wop rope and even clicker training! In summer she's schooled about 3 times a week and hacked 3 times (plus some jumping instead of schooling sometimes), in winter, she's hacked twice a week due to dodgy school and no lights for evening riding...
She is relatively fit taking into account the twice a week riding (but makes no difference when she is at peak fitness anyway!), is fed winergy medium energy plus sodium bicarb and roships for the tying up, plus seaweed and oil
 
The only thing I can say worked for one of mine was a really good crack of the whip - one, very sharp, straight away, and jolly hard, when he dropped off the leg. He only ever needed two - by the second one he got the message. It saved years of being nagged.
 
Ditto this. Squeeze, if no response pony club kick with a flick of the whip so she gallops off. Everytime she drops behind your leg repeat this, she will soon learn.
 
Last week someone advised me to put both reins in one hand loosley hold tight with other and give one massive pony club kick, both legs off thewell style and make horse really move on up a long side pat him/her as soon as they move on then do it again after about three they get the message. Then all you have to do is take your legs off and they anticipate....Also find jiggling heels has a better effect than constant squeezing
 
Thanks guys - but that doesn't work!! She will respond for 5/6 strides then drop off again (no matter how sharp or hard the crack with the whip is!)...I've also tried holding the whip in my right hand and quickly bringing it over the top to crack behind my left leg then quickly behind my right leg...sort of short, sharp shock...but same response, forwardness for 5/6 strides then drops off again!
Madam_Max - she never ever gallops off....sometimes I might get a couple of joggy strides but thats it!!
 
thats a new one help1...i've tried pony club kicks many times but both right legs off and holding tight with one hand for leverage is worth a go!!
Jiggling heels??

Edit to say: all usual checks back, teeth, saddle etc are carried out routinely and she has never had a problem with anything...

Edit again as I cross=posted!! tried someone on the ground with a lunge whip about 3 years ago, but not since may well be worth another go! thanks
 
Do you keep you legs off her the rest of the time? You need to be able to keep them off and only use them when needed. Will she not even shoot forwards into canter? If so pretend you want her to canter and send her forwards and take you legs off and everytime you feel her drop you give her a sharp reminder.
 
Too be honest if it is her muscle problem causing this you may never get much of better response. I had a horse with EPSM and nearly always struggled like you. However there were a few days here and there where he would obviously feel great and I could hardly hold him.
I tried everything and never did get to the bottom of it

I wish you luck though
 
madam-Max....noooo she doesn't shoot into canter at all....and yes, always take my legs off so she can really feel the difference....awkward one I know!
 
Interesting soulfull....I did wonder if this was the cause of her problem....altho she hasn't tied up for over a year now (touch wood!)...but I did wonder if maybe her muscle performance wasn't totally up to par...so very interested to hear what you said about your horse with epsm...
 
M_M - feeding details are in my first post........she's a 15hh 9 yr old Irish sports horse cross...

appreciate everyone's replies....i know its a difficult one!!
 
The only horse I have ever come across with the problem that yours has, after everything that you have tried, was EPSM and he needed a carbohydrate reduced, no sugar and grass free diet.

You would never have known that there was anything wrong with him at all, except that he was never comfortable walking over stones (he was barefoot) and in a soft arena, where he should have been totally happy, he simply would not move unless whipped to do so.

My guess is that your horse has metabolic issues and that this is not about your aids at all. Is your horse on grazing? Is there mollases or wheat syrup in your food (check the white label, not the name on the sack)? Do you soak your hay (good) or feed ryegrass seed haylage (bad)? Has it got the right minerals and vitamins (commercial mixes are simply not bio-available (digestible) enough for the worst cases, and need to be fed stuff like brewer's yeast, which is more easily absorbed instead).

I hope this helps you work out what the problem is.
 
Just to say that you are not the only one with an animal that will not shoot off at a good crack with the whip. I might get a bit of a faster trot
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have you tried using a whip in each hand used simultaneously- I found for a time that this did help produce that initial forward oomph though I had to be careful not to block with my hand.

also second the lunge whip though this tends to wind him up too much so then we only get medium trot.

how is your horse if someone else rides her, my instructor finds franks forwardsness less of a problem than me- electric knickers lol! I assume I must be blocking him some way, we are working on it.

do you use voice commands?
 
Hmmm...another interesting point....re: feed...since her first tying up episode, she has been on a reduced starch, no sugar, high oil diet...with seaweed as a general vit & min, rosehips (which were recommended for her conditio) and sodium bicarb to reduce the lactic acid output...she is at grass, but comes in every day during the day year round to give her a break from it,...can't stable her any longer than that as would prob. trigger another attack...she is fed hay but not soaked, no hayledge...
I'm not sure what else could be done, I have contacted all the relevant feed companies and tried a few different diets, but the winergy seems to have been the best...

thanks for the reply....not sure what would be best to do now re feed and diet...but certainly seems it could be connected to a muscle problem....

edit to reply to esther! never tried 2 whips so worth a go...my YO and a friend of mine have both ridden her and got some reasonable work out of her, but hoss really throws her toys out the pram first which she never does with me....
 
I was advised by my instructor to take both my legs off, really off, and then put them both back on together quite quickly and firmly. After doing this twice, I only had to take my legs off and she moved on sgtraight away
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TBH it does sound as though this might be a physical issue. I'd feel pretty bad about exotic use of whips etc if it could be a medical thing... What is she like on hacks? If she really would rather be beaten up/nagged in the school than forward you might want to consider posting again but about the EPSM so more people that know about that look in...
 
To be honest, she is managed as if she has EPSM - vet was nearly at stage of doing a biopsy (only way of confirming), but then decided to wait and see if she tied up again...which she didn't.
Her diet is as per an epsm horse (diet being the main treatment for the condition).
She is the same on hacks but really perks up when jumping and is alot more forward so not totally convinced at the moment.
coolrunnings - she was on the spillers response feed when she tied up the first time!! its much too high starch which is why she is on the medium energy mix from winergy - specially formulated for horses that tie up
thanks anyway everyone
Edit to say, I do back up with the whip, but she is never 'beaten up'!! just in case people were worrying!!
 
Did you mention whether she goes forwards well enough on a hack? obviously if she does, its not a physical problem.

My other thought is, do not under estimate just how much a rider can, unknowingly, block a horse's movement. It can be with the hand, the thigh, the knee or or course the whole lot! If your instructor can get the horse moving forwards it might point to a rider blockage.
 
My chap was sold to me as not very forward going and that has been the case. I started nagging far too much with my legs at first and still at times continue to do so but I've learnt that frustration at his lack of impulsion makes my whole body stiffen and legs clamp on and then I know I'm blocking him through his back and body and it must be him feeling like he's coming up against a rod on his spine. He then hollows through his back and doesn't use his back legs properly but sort of ploughs forward via the front if that makes sense.

A couple of instructors have got me giving the one chance squeeze with my leg followed by the short sharp shock with a whip to get him going and then to take my leg off completely and try and release my seat a bit and that does seem to work but I do need to still remind him then to keep going at times but he picked up the 'one chance now go' thing pretty quickly. And now once we're moving forward more freely and him using his back end working properly as I'm not blocking he seems to be able to maintain his momentum. Had the best ever consistent, keeping going, canter on him I'd ever had a few weeks ago, it felt fab! Hope you manage to get to the bottom of what's causing your problem and it gets sorted.
 
Thanks again for the replies - some useful points and suggestions there...obviously I have never ignored the fact that it *may* be an epsm thing, but altho she is the same on hacks, she really perks up jumping which as oldred said has made me also suspect that it is just her nature to a certain extent.
Interestingly today she had a right bag on, cos she is in season and I wore little spurs and she worked really really well, only flagging once or twice until the end of the session when she really lost the impulsion...and that was working in a really boggy messy school! We even got halt-reinback-trot!!!

Thanks again all, it does help to hear others suggestions and similar experiences!!!
 
This sounds very familiar, as I have a lazy lazy pony (nothing wrong with him at all, jujst bone idle sometimes!). I totally sympathise! All the posts from people saying give a good hard smack to make her gallop off made me smile, it would barely make my lazy monster move, let alone gallop off
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As mentioned by Ester, try voice commands. I taught Murphy voice command (mainly for upwards transitions), which means I'm not relying on my legs, which means I'm not using them as much, so he's less likely to be dead to them. He will now trot and canter on voice commands (once he is paying attention!!). Murphy also enjoyed learning something new.

Also, something that has worked really well for me has been asking ONCE (whilst wearing spurs so the command is clear - my pony actually seems to prefer me using spurs), then if that fails, very firm smack with stick, growl,big kick. You have to be totally consistent tho, no excuses, horse must go on your first request. If she does go on first request, praise her lots
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Force yourself to hold your legs away from her sides so you're not touching her at all when she's doing as asked.

Another random thought - can you get your legs on properly?! I rode in my old saddle tonight as my new one is in for reflocking. Old one doesn't fit me properly, and has to have a thick sheepskin numnah underneath, and because it puts me in a bad position I just cannot get my legs on properly, I can hardly feel his sides
 
Tarrsteps - yes my YO and a friend have been on her, but not 2 days in a row...when YO gets on her and asks her for movement, if she doesn't get the response, she get tougher with her and hoss really throws her toys out the pram (something which she never does with me!) then gets on with it!! still needing quite a strong leg aid - she doesn't turn into a completely different horse, but alot better than she is usually....
bex1984 - i have 2 saddles gp and dressage and they are both fine, however, I am 5'8 and on a 15hh so I find that around my ankle area her body disappears!! but this has led me to bring my legs up and back to connect - not great, but I'm trying to correct it...however, 'shorter' people have been on her with a better leg position and it really didn't make any difference!
reassuring to hear from someone with exactly the same problem as me!!
 
I also found with my lad some days were better than others and some surfaces too he really hated deep ground especially the surface at Eland lodge ?? Some days when jumping he would actually bu**er off with me. I guess they are the same as us in that if you don't feel too good you won't clean the house (school) but will pull yourself together to go and ride lol(jump)

You could try increasing the oil considerably I was feeding Beacon upto 3/4litre of pure oil a day some need much more than others

Oh one more thing I also found he was more prone to viruses than other horses and so would regularly give him aloe vera juice as a preventative as well as a cure, it never failed to give him a lift. I got it from holland and barratt and fed 200ml per day for about 10 days (maybe worth a try)
 
soulfull - thanks for that, I have been feeding an oil based diet, in case it was epsm - but, on doing some reading and with what you said, I don't think its a high enough amount...think i will up it gradually and see what happens....have to start thinking of supplementing with vit E tho at some point...

Def will try the aloe vera juice - it won' hurt her and I'm willing to try anything!!!

thanks so much!
 
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