scoping and ultrasound scanning

[Horsekaren]

Hi
I am usually found in the Tack Room posting for advise on anything and everything being a first time owner. I was hoping for a bit of veterinary advise as i feel i need to set a plan and the guessing game is wearing thin.

A summary, my boy tested positive for hind gut bleeding in a Succeed test and was prescribed steroids and a gut balancer. He improved and id say he is about 50 percent his old self. The last week his behavior began to get very aggressive biting and kicking. It was suggested by a friend i change him on to the Acid Ease rather than the gut balancer which has helped (only two days but his is no longer aggressive)

The vet came back last week and bloods were all showing improvement. Vet seems to be thinking there is hind gut inflammation somewhere and advised the next step will be a abdominal ultrasound.

I am going to call the vet tomorrow to discuss the ultrasound but i am also thinking of asking for him to be scoped as well.

Can these be done at the same time, ie one after another?

My biggest concern is the scoping as i know being starved for 12 hours is going to make my boy incredibly stressed, he does jump over doors so it is going to be a case of putting a weave grill up and not turning up to see him until the vet arrives as he will be very agitated and aggressive... i expect. can they truly not eat anything at all for 12 hours? My boy also goes into shut down mode (i presume this is a pain response and he basically switches off and leans back like he cant lock his legs. I'm scared he will fall down with sedation.

Is scoping really as stressful as i am predicting? would you have him scoped before he is scanned? His symptoms scream ulcers but vet doesn't seem convinced.

girthy
grumpy
hates rugs
doesn't like being touched especially towards the back of his belly and bottom of his back near his bum.
yawning
biting
kicking when picking feet
pulling faces

The only things against ulcers are-
weight good
adlib hay
fast fibre
no sugar


I have said to my partner i am done with the guessing and trailing treatment as it seems to get better then boom he soon lets me know he still isn't feeling OK.
Being a first time owner i dont have the experience behind me so i'm just looking to hear about peoples experiences and in put.

 

[Horsekaren]

To add this is also our first winter so im not sure if that is having any impact on his mood

 

[Fluffyponies]

To quickly answer your question, yes an abdominal scan can be performed at the same time as gastroscope. They do need starving for the scope to be successful else the vet wont be able to see the entire stomach. Scanning his abdomen can be done without starvation.

Sedation wise, horses are commonly sedated, and yes they are heavily sedated for scoping. I wouldn't let this put you off, just speak to the vet before hand and they'll offer some advice so dont worry.

I'd take it step by step. May be worth speaking to your vet again, and make your concerns clearer and see what they think.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Ulcers can come from stress so being a good weight with ad lib forage isn't a preventative. I'd say ulcers first and foremost.Yes they do need starved for scoping I am affraid but that is for stomach ulcers. You can't see hind gut ulcers so you have to take a swing and treat for them regardless as you won't get proof.

 

[racebuddy]

Hi my horse has been scoped and scannened and urn wasn't invasive , I took my horse down the day beforehand so he was fully starved mine was diagnosed with ulcers : bleeding in his abdomen and irritable vowel Xx

 

[Horsekaren]

Hi my horse has been scoped and scannened and urn wasn't invasive , I took my horse down the day beforehand so he was fully starved mine was diagnosed with ulcers : bleeding in his abdomen and irritable vowel Xx

Thanks, can i ask how your was treated? were they back on their hoofs fairly quick?

 

[CMcC]

I had mine scoped. I was worried about the starving and thought he would react badly. He was remarkable calm about it. Thought he wouldn't load without food on the lorry. He was absolutely fine bothe ways.
so try not to stress too much in advance (I know it is easy to say).

 

[chaps89]

The vet may suggest having the horse in to scope if that's what you want to do. I sent mine there the night before so that they could starve her and deal with her being hungry the next day and scope fairly early on in the day. Tummy does need to be empty for them to get a good view of what's going on so they do need to be starved.
I know you've shown the vet a video of his falling over behaviour so they will know what they're dealing with from the perspective - sedation is absolutely necessary for the scoping procedure. Another benefit to sending to the vets is they will have stocks so they can wedge him in/upright if needs be and will be better placed if he does do his funny falling over thing.
If you're on Facebook, try the Horses with ulcers group - lots of advice on there.
Mine scoped with grade 2s yet had no weight problems so wasn't your typical ulcer horse in that respect.

 

[Horsekaren]

He is booked, the big day is Monday. We are having it done at home as i want to cause him as little stress as possible.
mine is also showing no signs of wait loss but i feel him soooooo much hay, is it normal for a 15.2 cob to eat 3 quarters of a bale of hay during the night and not be a over weight :/ i wonder if his lack of wait loss is because i feed him sooooo much that we arn't noticing it.

But all other signs are there, the only annoying thing is his Succeed test was negative for bleeding stomach ulcers but positive for hind gut. I suppose it doesn't mean they arn't there it just means they arn't bleeding. Also the fact his behavior is just impeccable around the vet must make them think he isn't in pain... i have come to the conclusion he is hiding his pain as the vet is more dominant and he doesn't want to appear week ... maybe... i did wonder if it was just me but he has shown the same behavior to my friends, partner and instructors. He must sense something different about the vet !

 

[Leo Walker]

is it normal for a 15.2 cob to eat 3 quarters of a bale of hay during the night and not be a over weight :/ i wonder if his lack of wait loss is because i feed him sooooo much that we arn't noticing it.

It can be. Mines 14.2hh and gets at least half a bale, a Hayplay full, a small feed and a handful of grass nuts in a ball and hes not overweight. He hasn't been in particularly hard work until recently either. On the other hand my last one was 14.1hh and not quite as heavy. He got considerably less and had it bulked out with straw to keep him from being the size of a house!

 

[Horsekaren]

It can be. Mines 14.2hh and gets at least half a bale, a Hayplay full, a small feed and a handful of grass nuts in a ball and hes not overweight. He hasn't been in particularly hard work until recently either. On the other hand my last one was 14.1hh and not quite as heavy. He got considerably less and had it bulked out with straw to keep him from being the size of a house!

The interesting thing is how big he use to be!

before me and last owner

last owner

first few weeks i had him after he was at the dealer (more than 6 months ago now... almost a year)

a few weeks ago

What was he fed in pic one to be that big :O

 

[BBP]

My horse had zero weight loss and zero grumpiness and was on ad lib forage and was super shiny and well looking and still had ulcers when scoped, they weren’t severe or bleeding but they were enough to cause him a lot of pain when exercised. I took him to vets night before as I didn’t think I could manage starving him at home when all the rest were being fed. He coped really well and was very well behaved the whole time, despite being a stressy type of horse. I treated him with omeprazole and sucralfate for 2 months, he scoped almost clear so continued treatment for another month, didn’t ride for the first 6-8 weeks, then added equishure for hind gut. I hated the idea of scoping and the treatment was expensive but it’s the best thing I did and I’m glad I trusted my instinct to do it. My horse went from stressy anxious dangerous and miserable to happy, bright, nosy, cheerful, fun to ride and a real joy (he still has his special moments but is generally amazing). He is now 2 years post treatment and it’s the best two years I’ve had with him. Now, the second he starts to put his ears back when ridden, or to stop when asked for an upwards transition, I know his belly is hurting (like when i thought he was getting fat in December so put a muzzle on him, he was then getting less hay as well as less grass so went horrid to ride, I got off straight away and gave him a few days off whilst I rectified the problem). I’m glad you have booked yours in, I think the results will be enlightening.

 

[Horsekaren]

My horse had zero weight loss and zero grumpiness and was on ad lib forage and was super shiny and well looking and still had ulcers when scoped, they weren’t severe or bleeding but they were enough to cause him a lot of pain when exercised. I took him to vets night before as I didn’t think I could manage starving him at home when all the rest were being fed. He coped really well and was very well behaved the whole time, despite being a stressy type of horse. I treated him with omeprazole and sucralfate for 2 months, he scoped almost clear so continued treatment for another month, didn’t ride for the first 6-8 weeks, then added equishure for hind gut. I hated the idea of scoping and the treatment was expensive but it’s the best thing I did and I’m glad I trusted my instinct to do it. My horse went from stressy anxious dangerous and miserable to happy, bright, nosy, cheerful, fun to ride and a real joy (he still has his special moments but is generally amazing). He is now 2 years post treatment and it’s the best two years I’ve had with him. Now, the second he starts to put his ears back when ridden, or to stop when asked for an upwards transition, I know his belly is hurting (like when i thought he was getting fat in December so put a muzzle on him, he was then getting less hay as well as less grass so went horrid to ride, I got off straight away and gave him a few days off whilst I rectified the problem). I’m glad you have booked yours in, I think the results will be enlightening.

just want to see him happy again
He doesn't play up what so ever when i ride him, lately he just seems to get better and better! He isn't the easiest to get into a contact but he never does anything silly a small lift of the hing legs and rushes into canter when i'm not containing his energy correctly but that is it. He doesn't seem uncomfortable either he really seems to enjoy it but he is always fed before so that might help.