Scum on the rampage

Successive governments have fostered the idea that the only way in to employment is through higher education.

Want to work in TV? Do a media studies course.
Want to be a lawyer? Do a law degree.

The sad fact is that many of these so-called vocational degrees are next to useless and are taught by people who were not good enough to get a job in these industries themselves. Do you think that the best lawyers choose to earn £40K a year teaching, or £150K a year in practice?

Before the 1960s (when the rot set in many areas), some people went to university (as their chosen profession required it, or they wanted to explore academically and were clever enough to make it worth society funding them to do so), some people did apprenticeships (most lawyers although they called it being articled, accountants, technicians, etc.) and the rest (the great majority) left school at 16 or 18 and got a job. This arrangement worked absolutely fine and suited all 3 groups.

Mass entrance to higher education was a conspiracy created by left-wing liberals (who fancied getting tenure in a UK 2nd rate, globally 5th rate university) and successive governments (who were rather keen to "improve" youth unemployment figures). The victims were those who were conned in to getting worthless degrees rather than finding jobs and learning whilst working, and of course the poor old taxpayer who foots the bill.

As a side note, my employer (a large engineering company) used to recruit most graduates from the UK. Now we recruit the vast majority from overseas. That isn't because they overseas ones are cheaper, or work harder, but they are better than many British applicants on a level playing field (our recruitment centres). When graduates from India have better written English than British ones, you know this country has a serious problem...
 
What was it you didn't like about Aber Quadro?
Just interested as I am here now (1st year). I am enjoying the course but the attitudes of some people here is just unbelievable (not in a good way ;) )

Will PM you during the week when i have time to write it all out!
I worked in Inn on the Pier for a year and saw some of the most disturbing things i have ever seen!!!!
 
my daughter there protesting for middle class ppl - she was not involved in trouble works damn hard in summer - her degree will let her study further hazard management - ummm you ppl who call students do you know what that is????? going and living in areas of earhquakes volcaninos tusamins - she will pay back her student loan and look to save ppl at same time mmmmmn so knock that :)
 
I went to an excellent Scottish university and graduated four years ago. I had to pay full tuition fees although my scottish, french, spanish and irish fellows did not. I am half scottish, have spent every summer since i was knee-high to a grass hopper larking around the highlands and islands with my cousins. Pure fortuity that my parents re-located south of the border for work, and I sat A-levels rather than Highers meant that I left with 17,000pounds worth of debt and i had to work all my way through university and my cousin with none. How is that fair and right? It is not.
 
Im pleased for you, that you had a good education. Sadly the people with big chips on shoulders are more about inverted snobbery and believing you're a victim and all this pathetic leftwing tosh about thatcher. What about all the people who bettered themselves got to own a house started a bussiness because the tories made it possible, the left want you to feel dependent on the state,hate self reliance and loath anyone who is a freethinker..... cameron and his cohorts want you me and everyone to better themselves for the good of every member of society ...please dont let the left try to ruin this great country ever again...

I'm a few years older than Sussexbythesea and was also fortunate enough to get a good education at a time when grants were available. My parents weren't poor but were certainly not well off and worked bloody hard to enable me to do it, even with my student grant. In the current situation I would not consider going to university with the amount of debt I would have to carry. Cameron and his mates have no idea of life in the real world and what some of those figures (which I'm sure seem like peanuts to them) mean to ordinary people.

And for what its worth, I graduated during the Thatcher era. Finding a job was a nightmare and I had to move 400 miles from my family and friends to get work. I was fortunate that my parents were able to help me by making sure I had a deposit for a flat etc, otherwise god knows what I would have done. I have worked hard and I guess you could say I've bettered myself but the people who made it possible are my parents and myself - certainly not the tories!

Education is an investment in our next generation and I think its disgusting that we are not prepared to make that investment in the people who are the future of this country.
 
I had an idea the other day. In the first year of university you have to get 40% to pass. It doesn't count towards your degree at all, you just have to get more than 40%. Well, if they made this figure much higher, say 75 - 80% where if you don't achieve this you cannot continue on to complete the degree, maybe some students would take university more seriously. Perhaps if they got say over 50 or 60% they could get a Higher Education Diploma (I don't know if that really exists!) or something. This way, only the students who want to make the effort can get degrees. They would stop wasting their money and other people's taxes. Hmmm...wouldn't deter all the muppets though :rolleyes:
 
Well, if they made this figure much higher, say 75 - 80% where if you don't achieve this you cannot continue on to complete the degree, maybe some students would take university more seriously.
Or maybe universities would be empty. I don't know anyone on my degree that gets consistently over 70%, and we're not a stupid lot...
 
Or maybe universities would be empty. I don't know anyone on my degree that gets consistently over 70%, and we're not a stupid lot...
Fair enough, but have to get over 90% for an A* in A level.
Only in the 1st year though, not in subsequent years. What sort of percentage would you suggest? (If that question comes across as sounding sarcastic, it's not meant to be. I genuinely want to know!) :)
 
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I went to Aberyswyth (hell on earth, and also a terrible uni and i do have others to compare with!)
Also Aberystwyth dished out "emergency" loans that did not have o be paid back (up to the value of £1000) to those who had in fact spent all their normal loans ! Several of the recepients i knew bought, holidays, cars, washing machines, shopping sprees and drinking. Can only assume this was funded by my fees???[/QUOTE]

I can vouch for this. See my earlier posts.
 
Fair enough, but have to get over 90% for an A* in A level.
Only in the 1st year though, not in subsequent years. What sort of percentage would you suggest? (If that question comes across as sounding sarcastic, it's not meant to be. I genuinely want to know!) :)
They give A*'s at A level now?! I did not know that, haha behind the times, much? :o
I've no idea what percentage to suggest, to be honest.
 
The difference between marking at A-level and degree is that at A-level the majority of the exams are based around 'getting the right answer' and the essays pretty much the same, some analytical content is required for the higher marks but it is fairly yes/no based marking.

Getting all the facts in correctly and referencing them will only get you 50% or so at degree level, the rest of the marks are based on analytical skills, argument structure, including lastest research and/or opinions all properly referenced and expressing your own opinions. This is a much more subjective marking style and even with moderation will depend somewhat on your marker's opinions. The result is that achieving over 70% is a real stuggle because it can be difficult to know exactly what is required for that, it isn't like you can say 'if you get 10 questions right out of 10 you get 100%' because getting the correct answers may only be 50% of each question's available marks, your presentation, backup and analysis of why/how/where the results came from and how valid they are make up the rest.

That is a little bit of a ramble but I hope it makes sense.
 
Some interesting points raised here. I was overseas when these riots occured, recruiting international students for a Russell Group university (RG is the term given to group of research intensive universities, nd are similar in status to the USA Ivy League). These students pay vast amounts of money to come to the UK to study, due to the reputation that we have for an outstanding education system. There is intense competition between the UK, Australia and USA, and increasingly from Asian Universities, for these lucrative international students, who subsidise the home students with their fees.

I think that one issue is that the previous government introduced "Widening Particiption", the term given to the goal of having 50% of adults having received some form of higher education by 2010 (?). Polytechnics which served an excellent purpose in providing vocational education and qualifications (HND etc) and Further Education Colleges were given degree awarding powers and university status, and the UK now has around 160 universities. This has ultimately devalued the ordinary Bachelor degree, and graduates have saturated the market. Consequently young people behave as if they are entitled to higher education, when it is not neccesarily the right direction for everyone.

I have just returned from the Gulf, where education is not a priority. Here, students sit a high school certificate in year 12 (this involves yes/no answers, no critical thinking or reaserch, unlike A-Level). Those with 70% or more are given a government scholarship covering not only their tuition fees, but their travelling and living expenses (and they don't live cheaply!). These students arrive in the UK, and it is a massive shock to them that they cannot buy their grades at degree level but have to work for them. As a general observation, the middle eastern girls arrive, are shocked but work hard and do well - they have something to prove. The boys arrive in the UK, are shocked by the demands of the course and do not.

I believe that we will see a number of these "new" universities disappear over the next few years. Already there are massive targets set to recruit international students, who effectively keep these universities afloat. The higher ranked universities attract research funding from industry and the government, so are less dependent upon the income from international students.

The UK has one private university: Buckingham. Here students pay the same fees regardless of whether they are from the UK or not. The courses are shorter: a bachelors degree is usually three years, whilst here they are two. We may see more of these. In the US there are corporate universities, McDonalds anyone? Seriously, these corporations invest in the future through setting up their own universities, educating their future employees.

In China the government sets the syllabus. If at the end of a course students cannot get employed, the course is pulled. Whilst I think that this is extreme, taking away the freedom to choose, the concept is sensible.

Maybe a solution could be to raise entry requirements to all higher education courses ensuring the quality of students is maintained. For medicine, students need not apply unless they have completed a Clinical Aptitude Test, have six weeks relative work experience as well as three A's at A-Level and at least nine A's at GCSE. This would "sort the wheat from the chaff" in terms of academic ability, reducing the numbers of applications, and going back to when university was not an entitlement for the masses but the next step for those genuinely high achieving.

Steps would need to be taken to ensure the employability of the many students who were simply not academically strong enough. Going to university would be something for younger students to aspire towards, rather than the assumption that this is their right.

Hmm, bit of a digression but still. Interesting thread....
 
Before the 1960s (when the rot set in many areas), some people went to university (as their chosen profession required it, or they wanted to explore academically and were clever enough to make it worth society funding them to do so), some people did apprenticeships (most lawyers although they called it being articled, accountants, technicians, etc.) and the rest (the great majority) left school at 16 or 18 and got a job. This arrangement worked absolutely fine and suited all 3 groups.

Sorry to say I agree-very well put.
 
Just a note - when I went to Uni (5 years ago) it was not so much considered a 'right' but a necessity. Right though school and onwards we were basicaly told that without a university education we would never get a decent job or amount to anything. You want fewer people to go to uni? persuade the schools and 'guidance counsellors' to push or even offer the other options.
 
Indeed Lilith, which was schools and FE colleges supporting the Labour government's goal of widening participation. The WP teams installed in universities (to attract those students) and in FE colleges and schools (to advise them), were given vast sums of money with which they ran projects and interactive events in schools. I remember one activity thet the WP team at the university I worked for at the time going into a primary school to make pretty mobiles out of coathangers, tissue paper and glitter. They had thousands in funding towards these types of activities which I find disturbing in the first place.

I feel terribly sorry for students who were given the message that University is their only option as many found themselves studying a subject that they weren't passionate about but were doing "because they could". This is how unusual (mickey mouse?) degree subjects were developed to satisfy the massive numbers of students that were being encouraged to go to University, and where many of the new universities appeared from
 
When I left school I was clever enough to go to Agricultural College "Clever People went to University" Not DROSS with useless o levels and gc`s or whatever qualifications are on offer this week this is why the country is inundated with hard working East Europeans whilst our home grown dossing wastrels toss it off doing a useless degree thats if they even stop and finish the course. The sooner people realise they would be better getting a trade and not thinking they are are better than they are the sooner this country will get off its fat Ass and things will improve.
 
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