Sea The Stars.

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rosie fronfelen

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will this great horse win tomorrow?? i do hope so- what do others think?
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well, he has won the Derby and 2000 Guineas this year, has an approx, stud value of 40 million and has so far notched up 2+ million in prize money. i call him pretty special- of course there have been many other "specials" i know having followed racing for 45 odd years.
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i think he is a very good horse and if he wins the Arc he will be equal with nashwan but for me the really really greats are few and far between, the ones that are so good they make other good horses look ordinary, act on any going, win whe n they should lose (although they are not nessecarily unbeaten every horse can have a bad day or no luck in running)
Secretariat, Arkle, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerrard, Seattle Slew, Miesque, Ouija Board, I know there are more but i am just going blank.
the money and stud value has nothing to do with it really as that is all comparative.
If Gone to France was still with us I bet she would have something to say on the matter!
 
Red Rum was only 'great' round one course, so though we loved him and are unlikely ever to see his like again, he doesnt count as 'great'.
there have been plenty of threads in the past about Dessie but for me National Hunt was all over when i worked out there would not be another Arkle but Kauto is looking good so far but then so did Best Mate until fate took him from us.
As I said before there are many many many very good horses, some of which were champions but the really truly great are rare indeed.
 
Sea the Stars stud value must have a lot to do with his breeding.

I would love to see him against a horse that makes him work for a win as up to now they've been very easy wins.

His dam is a true great horse. A fantastic race mare one of very few mares to win the Arc and has produced some very special racehorses.
 
'great' is surely a personal opinion?

i think Sea The Stars is great, and nobody can say i am wrong as it is my opinion!

he is the only horse that actually has me interested in flat racing; usually i only like NH but i think he is amazing to watch.
 
you are entitled to your opinion but that is not what this thread was about. At this point sea the stars will not make a list of the 100 greatest racehorses. Tommorow night he might but he is no more deserving than nashwan and less deserving than Mill Reef for example unless he stays in training.
 
He's got to be the best horse currently in training, and would love to see him win tomorrow. Having said that, I'd also like Youmzain to get his nose in front.
 
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If Gone to France was still with us I bet she would have something to say on the matter!

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Hang on! What happened to G to F???
 
She has been a bad bad person and been banned for discussing the Franch horses. i think we should petition admin myself
 
bloody hell, i only asked what others thought of Sea The Stars! i didn't expect the onslaught!! everyone has an opinion i know and noone can disagree that this colt hasn't done well so far!!( having said that i suppose he'll lose tomorrow!!!)
 
when you have been on here longer salimali, you will realise that you cant 'only ask' about a great many things!! we all love a good debate as long as it doesnt get nasty!!
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obviously i have alot to learn.my intentions were light hearted and my curiosity led the way as to others opinions o this great horse- no point bothering againif its to turn unpleasant, enough of that in my life without more unfortunately.
 
Good post zero. Sea the Stars dam, Urban Sea was possibly the best race broodmare ever. Bless her, she died this year at the age of 20 giving birth to another foal. :-(

Her record for producing top class racehorses is amazing. As well as Sea the Stars (who I'd love to see win the Arc, just like his mum did) she had Galileo, Black Sam Bellamy and All Too Beautiful.
 
I disagree. Sea the stars is indeed a great horse. Most of the top racehorses have a preferred distance, surface, going etc that they are most likely to produce their best runs over. Given their value and potential for stud career, they are not likely to be tested over unsuitable tracks and going - even less so in this day and age when stud duties command such huge fees. Given fees today, we are less likely to see a horse tested to the extent they were in the past. Mill Reef - definitely one of the greats - but he still had a number of below par races (not all losing ones). I agree a "great" does not need to be unbeaten - but I cant see much in his ratings etc to put him far ahead of STS (except his Arc win but we will have to wait til tomorrow...)
Mill Reef(141) was the 6th highest rated horse in history by Timeform. STS(140) is the 7th. Any horse rated 140 or more is classed as OUTSTANDING - not just great - outstanding. For the record, Nashwan is rated 135... In this years Cartier Awards standings, STS is far and away the best horse in the world and according to The thoroughbred times is regarded as such by the industry's most knowledgable people.
The general media has regarded STS as great (and many other superlatives) - just a quick google will show that. Thoroughbred and Equine media have described him as "Living legend" (The Irish Field) "an all-time great" (Racing Post) " Rcaing greats - the most experienced/ informed in the industry have lavished praise on him "You have to compare STS with the best we've seen, because the way he has run this year has been fantastic" (Lester Piggot-winner of 3 Arcs)
How do you class a horse as "great" if not based on personal opinion, media opinion, the opinions/regard of the industry greats, and official timeform/ international ratings?

[This is meant as a genuine question/debate, not as it might sound - patronising etc. I enjoy discussing the ability of racehorses and the opinion of informed individuals on the subject. I for one miss GTFs input.
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ETA - If STS wins the Arc, he will not be "equal" with Nashwan - hes already surpassed that. Nashwan was defeated (3rd) in the Prix du Niel(sp) and was therefore retired from training and did not contest the Arc. Perhaps, if STS is well beaten tomorrow (over a distance and possibly going that is not his optimum) he will be equal to Nashwan.
 
Surely STS is great because he has done everything so easily that we don't really know how good he is. He has beaten some very highly regarded horses very easily over a range of distances from 7 - 12f and on ground ranging from good to firm to soft/heavy. It's not his fault that nothing so far has really tested him. Heres hoping that his long season doesn't catch up with him tomorrow.
 
if we are talking greats - surely nothing compares to Eclipse - raced over 4 seasons, against all ages, in a time when it was not uncommon for horses to compete over 3 heats of 4 miles with only a short break in between, on all manner of courses that were neither watered or irregated as they are now . He was unbeaten, often winning by a distance (if he didn't scare his competitors off before the race actually began)

Back to Sea The Stars - Lester Piggott was quoted as saying that the only thing that would beat him in the Arc would be the going, and then he wouldn't run anyway! Nuff said!!
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I hope Sea of Stars wins tomorrow. He already ranks with the greats surely, or are we saying the rest of the this years crop of three year olds are below par? I don't follow racing that closely these days to know the answer to that. I'd have loved to see Sea of Stars contest the Ledger - I still believe in the triple crown though can understand totally why they didn't run him. I do love that his owner is so young but clearly so enthusiastic about racing and loves his horses. That's always nice to see.

As to past greats my own personal choice would be Dancing Brave. It was more his style of racing than anything - his electric burst of speed when he almost won the Derby and that sprint to the line when he won the Arc. He was pretty magical to me.
 
No this year's crop of three year olds arent underpar, they have just come up against a very good horse who has made them look average. Rip Van Winkle, Delagator and of course Mastercraftman are 3 very good horses in their own right, however, STS has walked all over them. This time last year, the talk was all about Mastercraftsman - after 2 very good wins in the Phoenix and national Stakes, he looked to be the one to beat as a 3yo. If you look up his form, its still very good - and STS is the name that repeats itself throughout it.
 
interesting thread to read, i dont really have any opinion on this, but shall now be having a look.

just wanted to say my claim to fame (sort of) I met and stroked Mill Reef once!!
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not long to go now. and i confess iit has been such a long time since there was a horse that was really 'great' (and i dont really care about timeforms ratings, they are just a guide and dont take into account things like improvements in racing surfaces and vet care and training methods) that i am almost afraid to hope that this one might be the one. I thought he was so fantastic at Epsom (I know I have started at least one thread about his races since) but racing fans have so often been in this place where we are waitng to see the best there has ever been and have been disappointed so you dont even like to hope.
And for the record, IMO timeforms rating for Mill Reef is a bit tight when you consider he only lost the guineas to a horse that raced over every distance and only got beat once in three seasons, was one of the best milers of all time and an outstanding champion himself. it isnt often you get two great champions on the go at the same time and perhaps Mill Reefs rating was lessened because he did get beat by the Brigadier and they never met again to settle the issue.
 
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