Second chance? Hoof care provider.

[flying_high]

Well, I certainly wouldn't let that trimmer within a mile of my horses, neither of whom have shoes. I have had 2 excellent farriers looking after their feet, neither of whom have ever suggested shoeing them. We only swapped farriers for logistical reasons.

TBH, any-one with even the slightest amount of knowledge about horses' feet should have known that 4 weeks after having shoes taken off was too soon for *ANY* horse to be trimmed, let alone one with sensitve feet.

That is not true. It entirely depends what you mean by trimming and how your horse's feet are. No good trimmer or farrier should leave a horse sore after trimming. All should watch move before and after trim and aim to improve movement. "Trimming isnt just shortening feet all over". Done well is is balancing, and tiny adjustments as needed to improve foot balance and foot function.

When my current horse had his shoes off, trimmer came every two weeks to assess progress. Didnt trim day we took shoes off. Did a bit after two weeks. I think was based on the bits of the foot that were weight bearing that shouldnt have been - false sole / bars that she took down a bit to ensure foot was loading better. False sole / bars in wrong place, can take too much weight and make sore.

His feet changed hugely every two weeks initially, and having trimmer there assessing and adjusting and making him more comfortable was very helpful. I dont think she did much toe / wall related trimming for a few months, but the other trimmer and levelling and balancing she did made him more comfortable. My horse put down a lot of false sole / exxtra infrastructure as weak feet, some of which created unwanted pressure points.

The issue with some farriers, is they barefoot trim, like about to put a shoe on / or like horse is a pasture ornament.

Key question IMO to ask any trimmer or farrier before employment for a barefoot horse, is how many barefoot ridden performance horses do you have on your books? And do you think it is okay / usual for a horse to be sore after you have trimmed them? Or should they move better immediately after your trim. On the basis of those questions and on looking at the feet and performance of other horses they trim, I think you can decide who you want to employ.

 

[ycbm]

Go back to your farrier; when it comes to complex and challenging cases they have the depth a of knowledge and training to advise the best course of action. These days any decent farrier will fully support unshod if it's the best thing for the horse (mine actually suggested it!).

You are lucky with your farrier, many still don't have a clue about working barefoot horses. The words 'barefoot', 'shoeless' or any other synonym are still absent from the syllabus for farriery training.

.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Tbh I’m not bothered if he has shoes on. I just thought It would be better for him to not. I just want him comfortable and happier!

 

[Pinkvboots]

pad the boots and just leave his feet mine didn't get trimmed for about 12 week's I just rasped the toes until he could take a bit of a trim

 

[TPO]

Comfortable movement is key. Making a sore horse move does harm.

Do you follow the Hoof geek website? I love her site and wish it had been about 10yrs ago when i went bf.

This series of blogs might help

https://hoofgeek.com/boots-and-pads-for-rehabilitation/

The pressure roads are cheap. In your shoes I'd buy them for your boots and put them on for turning him out/bring in.

I feel a bit for (some) trimmers as the slightest blip and they are hung out to dry. I've been on a yard where horses are lame after shoeing (one had to be box rested for 2 days after every shoeing (& would lie down the first day) he was that sore) and nothing was said. Then if my very compromised horse took an off step* they were like hyenas about how he needed shoes.

*I've had bad/poor trimmers who have over trimmed and/or badly trimmed, I've not known enough at times and trusted "experts" and I've had excellent trimmers who work minimally to try and help this horse who had dumbfounded vets.

Re getting your trimmer back. Trust your gut

Is this someone you can envisage having a conversation with? If not bin them

Less is more but we all make mistakes. Maybe they misread the hoof. "We" happily turn a blind eye to nail bind etc

If you dont feel comfortable continuing with them there are lots listed on here

http://www.barefoothorse.info

 

[poiuytrewq]

He’s not really wearing the boots much. Now I can get him on and off the yard directly through the fence!
They just come off in the mud so I can’t turnout in them.
I had wondered that. My farrier rarely ever had to trim his hinds

 

[poiuytrewq]

Comfortable movement is key. Making a sore horse move does harm.

Do you follow the Hoof geek website? I love her site and wish it had been about 10yrs ago when i went bf.

This series of blogs might help

https://hoofgeek.com/boots-and-pads-for-rehabilitation/

The pressure roads are cheap. In your shoes I'd buy them for your boots and put them on for turning him out/bring in.

I feel a bit for (some) trimmers as the slightest blip and they are hung out to dry. I've been on a yard where horses are lame after shoeing (one had to be box rested for 2 days after every shoeing (& would lie down the first day) he was that sore) and nothing was said. Then if my very compromised horse took an off step* they were like hyenas about how he needed shoes.

*I've had bad/poor trimmers who have over trimmed and/or badly trimmed, I've not known enough at times and trusted "experts" and I've had excellent trimmers who work minimally to try and help this horse who had dumbfounded vets.

Re getting your trimmer back. Trust your gut

Is this someone you can envisage having a conversation with? If not bin them

Less is more but we all make mistakes. Maybe they misread the hoof. "We" happily turn a blind eye to nail bind etc

If you dont feel comfortable continuing with them there are lots listed on here

http://www.barefoothorse.info

I do! I live near her and In fact she has been and advised with my other horse! She is lovely. Sadly I just can’t afford to actually use her for 5. She’s very much worth the extra. I just don’t have it!
What you’ve mentioned was very much part of my dilemma! I’ve had horses with a misplaced nail as lame (admittedly only on one foot not 4 and very swiftly fixed) but I didn’t just bin them off without consideration.

 

[tristar]

when my one horse had the shoes off he went 16 weeks before the next trim, our youngest horse was walked on the road in the autumn winter and has not been trimmed since last september, his feet look perfect.

let him grow lots of foot, even if it looks scruffy, its just a short term thing, he needs lots of sole etc, dont let them take anything off the sole

dont worry so much about what people think, your horse is more important, sometimes you have to force yourself to get what you want and need.

when the spring grass comes through it will all probably sort itself out with new growth, best of luck

 

[poiuytrewq]

Thank you Tristar

 

[ester]

So you haven't actually spoken to the trimmer about this yet? It's really important that you do actually inform him even if you don't use him again.
We (as in trimmer but with my agreement) made Frank sore once, all we'd done was trim the bars a little which most farriers would do without any consideration at all. He was adequately booted until comfortable without again (which wasn't too long as they'd reappared in 10 days).
We both made a note that we wouldn't touch them again and I informed my old farrier of the same when he moved back to somerset and he started trimming him again.
I absolutely agree with TPO's can you have a conversation with them though, that is always key to me.

I don't quite understand how we have gone from one, sore, newly unshod horse to shoeing everything else again?

 

[poiuytrewq]

So you haven't actually spoken to the trimmer about this yet? It's really important that you do actually inform him even if you don't use him again.
We (as in trimmer but with my agreement) made Frank sore once, all we'd done was trim the bars a little which most farriers would do without any consideration at all. He was adequately booted until comfortable without again (which wasn't too long as they'd reappared in 10 days).
We both made a note that we wouldn't touch them again and I informed my old farrier of the same when he moved back to somerset and he started trimming him again.
I absolutely agree with TPO's can you have a conversation with them though, that is always key to me.

I don't quite understand how we have gone from one, sore, newly unshod horse to shoeing everything else again?

No I haven’t. I’d thought when he next came I’d explain how bad things had been and could he go much gentler this time, but then I couldn’t decide if actually this is too bad to have him done again at all, just in case. I will tell him either way, I’d just thought it best face to face. Obviously if I cancel the next apt which actually I haven’t yet I will explain why.
Arrghh ?‍ God, I just don’t know what I’m doing. I’m just sick of sore feet lame horses. After all the problems with the other one this going wrong has been pretty depressing all round. I don’t know what to do.
I have this afternoon emailed the whole other horse story to my proper vet (having just been seeing who got sent when he was first lame about it) so am going to be guided by him on that one now I think.

 

[ester]

See I don't understand why you wouldn't just speak to them now? If they are a good HCP they would want to at least know, and even more so help!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Comfortable movement is key. Making a sore horse move does harm.

Do you follow the Hoof geek website? I love her site and wish it had been about 10yrs ago when i went bf.

This series of blogs might help

https://hoofgeek.com/boots-and-pads-for-rehabilitation/

The pressure roads are cheap. In your shoes I'd buy them for your boots and put them on for turning him out/bring in.

I feel a bit for (some) trimmers as the slightest blip and they are hung out to dry. I've been on a yard where horses are lame after shoeing (one had to be box rested for 2 days after every shoeing (& would lie down the first day) he was that sore) and nothing was said. Then if my very compromised horse took an off step* they were like hyenas about how he needed shoes.

*I've had bad/poor trimmers who have over trimmed and/or badly trimmed, I've not known enough at times and trusted "experts" and I've had excellent trimmers who work minimally to try and help this horse who had dumbfounded vets.

Re getting your trimmer back. Trust your gut

Is this someone you can envisage having a conversation with? If not bin them

Less is more but we all make mistakes. Maybe they misread the hoof. "We" happily turn a blind eye to nail bind etc

If you dont feel comfortable continuing with them there are lots listed on here

http://www.barefoothorse.info

If my farrier lamed my horse, I would not be inviting him back. I certainly wouldn't think it was fine for a horse to regularly have to spend the day after shoeing lying down. I find it extremely difficult to believe that any-one would think that was acceptable. We did once have a poor farrier who changed the shape of our horses' feet within 2 cycles, after our excellent farrier retired. We didn't have him back, although none of the horses were lamed by him,

 

[paddy555]

TBH, any-one with even the slightest amount of knowledge about horses' feet should have known that 4 weeks after having shoes taken off was too soon for *ANY* horse to be trimmed, let alone one with sensitve feet.

That is not true. My new horse had his shoes off just before Xmas and I have trimmed him twice weekly from the word go. I trimmed him to correct his feet. That small amount of trimming and corrections have set his feet up perfectly. He has not been sore. There is a lot more to trimming than just shortening the foot.

In this case I don't understand why OP didn't ring the trimmer as soon as the horse was sore. That way the trimmer would have remembered the horse and may have had some input. It may have been the situation that he simply took too much off and could apologise and make a note for next time. Alternatively it may be that he didn't and there is some other explanation.

If I had trimmed a horse I am sure I would rather have had the owner on the phone immediately so we could have tried to resolve the problem than 2 pages of an forum where no one has seen the horse, how it is kept or the living conditions underfoot. What is the point of employing someone and then not communicating back to them?

 

[poiuytrewq]

I didn’t like to call and complain, I figured he’d be ok in a day or two and as above I’d just mention it next time.
As time went on I just began to think actually am I being stupid here, should I risk it again. Hence asking what other people would do!

 

[poiuytrewq]

The horse was sore as I walked him away, I’m pretty sure it would have been obvious

 

[criso]

It didn't have to be a complaint. You could have said x is still quite sore today, would you expect this? When would you expect him to improve.

However it's difficult not having got in touch right at the start. For me whether they got a second chance would depend on how they responded.

It's happened to me twice, once when shod by a new farrier shoeing my horse for the first time - he was mortified. Thought he'd been conservative with how much he trimmed but must have overdone. Gave advice and texted several times to see how he was getting on. Didn't make the same mistake again. The second was when Frank was barefoot, again a farrier, decided his frogs were too big and cut most off. Had to use bandages and pads for several weeks. He was less sympathetic and I got the impression that he would do it again so I just texted to say I was going back to my old farrier.

With a sensitive horse, my trimmer would rasp a bit, then walk him up and down, then a bit more and walk again to check he was OK. Anyone new I ask them just to do the minimum tidying and watch closely.

 

[poiuytrewq]

That makes sense. I’m just not great at telling people they have done something wrong, I know it’s not a complaint as such but feels a bit that way.
I figured he couldn’t do anything about the situation anyway.

 

[ester]

yup def not a complaint! it really is just information.

 

[paddy555]

That makes sense. I’m just not great at telling people they have done something wrong, I know it’s not a complaint as such but feels a bit that way.
I figured he couldn’t do anything about the situation anyway.

if the trimmer didn't know and therefore couldn't find out or work out why the horse was sore what is to stop it happening again with either the trimmer or a farrier? The trimmer may have trimmed conservatively but even a simple trim may have been too much for this horse. OTOH there could be an underlying reason with an older horse.
Did he lower the heels bringing the frog into ground contact when it was not up to it yet, is the central sulchus sore?

you don't have to tell the trimmer he has done wrong, as Ester says it is just information. If the trimmer had accepted it, tried to help you, kept in touch as to how the horse was doing, made suggestions etc then I would have kept him and at least let him come again and discuss it. If OTOH he just didn't care then he has basically sacked himself and saved you a job.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Yep ok lesson learnt. I can let him know now. It’s still not a fortnight gone.

 

[poiuytrewq]

He doesn’t appear to have changed anything drastically to my eye and I didn’t sweep up big chunks of trimmed hoof afterwards

 

[chaps89]

If you can't afford the lady mentioned above for all 5, could you use her for your troublesome 2 (horse in this post and horse who you posted x-rays for recently) and use trimmer/farrier for the other 3 less difficult ones?

 

[Goldenstar]

Tbh I would not put an oldie through a difficult bare foot transition .
the trimmer sounds like a muppet .
you can get Bute in a syringe buy some.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Tbh I would not put an oldie through a difficult bare foot transition .
the trimmer sounds like a muppet .
you can get Bute in a syringe buy some.

No I agree, just that it was easy when the shoes first came off!
The bite situ is fine. Bit of fruit squash and a syringe!

 

[AandK]

If you can't afford the lady mentioned above for all 5, could you use her for your troublesome 2 (horse in this post and horse who you posted x-rays for recently) and use trimmer/farrier for the other 3 less difficult ones?

Having looked at her website, surely having her for all 5 would still be cheaper than shoeing all of them?

I had my 7yo trimmed about 4 weeks after having his shoes off, he wasn't lame but I could tell he was slightly off as he took the odd funny step on uneven ground. I then moved him to a trimmer who is more expensive than a farrier, but he has always been 100% sound post trim so I don't begrudge paying the extra for him.