Second fear period?

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Zazus is approaching 12 months old and has started to be wary of strangers. He is fine if they just walk past him but if they try and pet him or offer him a treat he barks and hackles go up. Obviously this isnt ideal if he needs to see the vet etc.

Could this be a second fear period?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Highly likely.
Just for future reference, ask anyone offering a treat to stand slightly side on and throw it on the ground in front of him, people approaching directly into dogs' face with hand outstretched can appear intimidating, also saves a person's fingers!!
Do people approach and try and pet him unbidden? As I wouldn't be a massive fan of that myself. Some people have no idea how to act around dogs, be your dog's advocate, if you see someone coming in for a HIYA in an inappropriate way, just say 'excuse me, do you mind just backing off a little, he's in training', etc etc.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I never allow strangers to just walk up to my dogs and pet them or offer a treat. Occasionally if someone asks to speak to them I chat to the person and make it clear to the dog that all is well. I simply don't allow strangers to offer treats.
When you go to the vet, it is a totally different scenario, so your dog's reaction to strangers shouldn't make any difference, you will introduce the vet to the dog.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Highly likely.
Just for future reference, ask anyone offering a treat to stand slightly side on and throw it on the ground in front of him, people approaching directly into dogs' face with hand outstretched can appear intimidating, also saves a person's fingers!!
Do people approach and try and pet him unbidden? As I wouldn't be a massive fan of that myself. Some people have no idea how to act around dogs, be your dog's advocate, if you see someone coming in for a HIYA in an inappropriate way, just say 'excuse me, do you mind just backing off a little, he's in training', etc etc.

Yes I think he is intimidated.

A recent one was I was stood chatting to a woman with her dog and a man with his dog. All dogs stood happily by our feet. The man then holds his hand out for zaz to sniff / tries to stroke, zaz barks and the man then backs off. When I say strangers I don't mean total randomers coming up but like the man zaz hadnt met before and was wary even tho he was fine before the man tried to interact with him when we were all just stood chatting.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

I never allow strangers to just walk up to my dogs and pet them or offer a treat. Occasionally if someone asks to speak to them I chat to the person and make it clear to the dog that all is well. I simply don't allow strangers to offer treats.
When you go to the vet, it is a totally different scenario, so your dog's reaction to strangers shouldn't make any difference, you will introduce the vet to the dog.

They are not total strangers but people hes not met before if that makes and sense!

He went to the vet for his booster last night and it was a disaster it was a new inexperienced vet which didnt help.... really annoyed with myself for letting it happen and not just walking out and coming back another time!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

They are not total strangers but people hes not met before if that makes and sense!

He went to the vet for his booster last night and it was a disaster it was a new inexperienced vet which didnt help.... really annoyed with myself for letting it happen and not just walking out and coming back another time!

One of our Rottweilers was upset by a nervous vet when she was about 2 yrs old. It has taken a lot of work and some sensible vets to get her over that experience. She's still not a fan but takes a vet visit more in her stride these days.

 

[CorvusCorax]

When he barks and people back off, that's a 'win' for him (bark at the scary thing, it retreats), so you need to decide if that is what you want or not (that he can learn to make scary things retreat by making noise) and until he is over this I would manage all interactions very carefully. I don't expect any old stranger to stand there and ignore him while he gobs off at them but you do need people who won't mind that sort of thing. Then reward when he goes neutral.
For vet visits I usually make sure the dog is hungry and take something SUPER TASTY - for example with my young one, I take one of those Crave foil trays of pate. She had an exam last week and she was so busy burying her face in the food that she didn't notice what the vet was doing. She was the same with her injections, too busy nomming to realise. The older ones the same, or one is more ball orientated, so he will just hold/take his stress out on it instead.

 

[Bellasophia]

What breed is he? Sorry I missed this..

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

One of our Rottweilers was upset by a nervous vet when she was about 2 yrs old. It has taken a lot of work and some sensible vets to get her over that experience. She's still not a fan but takes a vet visit more in her stride these days.

I think this will be the same!

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

When he barks and people back off, that's a 'win' for him (bark at the scary thing, it retreats), so you need to decide if that is what you want or not (that he can learn to make scary things retreat by making noise) and until he is over this I would manage all interactions very carefully. I don't expect any old stranger to stand there and ignore him while he gobs off at them but you do need people who won't mind that sort of thing. Then reward when he goes neutral.
For vet visits I usually make sure the dog is hungry and take something SUPER TASTY - for example with my young one, I take one of those Crave foil trays of pate. She had an exam last week and she was so busy burying her face in the food that she didn't notice what the vet was doing. She was the same with her injections, too busy nomming to realise. The older ones the same, or one is more ball orientated, so he will just hold/take his stress out on it instead.

Thank you for the advice , will give it a go! He use to bark at people when we were walking (I did post about it at the time), but that was overcome in a similar way. Good idea about the food thing, I've got some salmon pate that he loves....

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

What breed is he? Sorry I missed this..

Labrador

 

[Clodagh]

Ffee, my youngest, is still timid at 2. I look at it as a plus as I don't want my dogs to interact with anyone. If someone comes to the house she barks and then I found to stop her I say stop or even blow the stop whistle, if you use it anyway as part of your training then it should mean pay attention to me. I made a rod for my own back by saying 'quiet' at her but not actually doing anything to encourage that, so decided to completely change the word. She gets a treat some times, but I put her in another room when people are in the house as she grumbles under her breath and it is boring. A CC quote but some are just made that way. I ensured her mother was confident but her Dad is a nervous wreck around strangers, I live and learn.
She had her jab this morning and I always ask for a particular vet, he came and took her out of the car park and she walked 'OK' with him inside. I've no idea how well or badly behaved she is in there but she is happy enough when she comes out.
On walks she just sits and waits if I talk to someone, she will growl if they try to pet her but I'm OK with that. I'm not being a lot of help really!

 

[Bellasophia]

Thanks..
I thought he may be a rottie whose development is entirely different from your breed..
in this scenario I would firstly Never ( in truth I never let anyone offer treats to my dogs)let anyone feed my dog ,but get the dog to refocus on you..ie you treat or praise and carry on..

Re the vet..if the visits and treatments are on the table, I would ask if you put him on a table?

eg at home? I have two breeds who go on the table almost every day for grooming..the vet is always pleased they don’t kick off for anything...we even had a lipoma removed with a local anaesthetic,dog lying on table albeit with me at his side

if not...practice at home,putting your dog on a table to brush,look at his teeth,in his ears,hold his feet.......
....when possible change walk locations...when you can the schoolyard exit is your best location,a local market etc...however in these difficult times it’s hard to carry out these ideas.
..Very important.....at this age start getting him to work and retrieve...take the retrieve object with you ( in your pocket on a mundane walk) to focus and reward him after he has performed something that either he’s done well,or had difficulty doing ,but you both got through it...
...there are experts in your breed here who will give you better suggestions to get your working type breed to focus on these exercises..

When he barks at someone inappropriately I personally would not praise or treat,but speak to him and say he’s a silly so and so and walk on.If you treat it reinforces what he’s doing..

 

[CorvusCorax]

FWIW I don't think anyone recommended treating the dog or praising it when the dog was barking/acting inappropriately. One waits until the dog focuses on the handler or goes neutral. Dogs typically take between 3-5 seconds to link a behaviour with a reaction/response.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Ffee, my youngest, is still timid at 2. I look at it as a plus as I don't want my dogs to interact with anyone. If someone comes to the house she barks and then I found to stop her I say stop or even blow the stop whistle, if you use it anyway as part of your training then it should mean pay attention to me. I made a rod for my own back by saying 'quiet' at her but not actually doing anything to encourage that, so decided to completely change the word. She gets a treat some times, but I put her in another room when people are in the house as she grumbles under her breath and it is boring. A CC quote but some are just made that way. I ensured her mother was confident but her Dad is a nervous wreck around strangers, I live and learn.
She had her jab this morning and I always ask for a particular vet, he came and took her out of the car park and she walked 'OK' with him inside. I've no idea how well or badly behaved she is in there but she is happy enough when she comes out.
On walks she just sits and waits if I talk to someone, she will growl if they try to pet her but I'm OK with that. I'm not being a lot of help really!

My OH said that about him not interacting with strangers! Tbh hes fine when people come in the house, he barks initially but then hes just like oh ok. His full brother (different litter) was apparently like this at the same age but grew out of it. Good idea about the stop whistle. I think a more confident vet wouldve made a hell of a difference last night.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Thanks..
I thought he may be a rottie whose development is entirely different from your breed..
in this scenario I would firstly Never ( in truth I never let anyone offer treats to my dogs)let anyone feed my dog ,but get the dog to refocus on you..ie you treat or praise and carry on..

Re the vet..if the visits and treatments are on the table, I would ask if you put him on a table?

eg at home? I have two breeds who go on the table almost every day for grooming..the vet is always pleased they don’t kick off for anything...we even had a lipoma removed with a local anaesthetic,dog lying on table albeit with me at his side

if not...practice at home,putting your dog on a table to brush,look at his teeth,in his ears,hold his feet.......
....when possible change walk locations...when you can the schoolyard exit is your best location,a local market etc...however in these difficult times it’s hard to carry out these ideas.
..Very important.....at this age start getting him to work and retrieve...take the retrieve object with you to focus and reward him after he has performed something that either he’s done well,or had difficulty doing ,but you both got through it...
...there are experts in your breed here who will give you better suggestions to get your working type breed to focus on these exercises..

When he barks at someone inappropriately I personally would not praise or treat,but speak to him and say he’s a silly so and so and walk on.If you treat it reinforces what he’s doing..

This was all on the floor last night, we did lots of socialisation stuff before the second lock down, but I think his age coupled with us not being able to go to these places has doubly impacted us.

 

[Bellasophia]

So start working with him....get it into your head he’s a working labby even if he’s not..visit the working lab websites..take him on the fields to practice focus,retrieves ,recall...make him work for everything he does at home...he will gain confidence in the fact you are engaging his very active brain..
I did this with my rottie who was from. Working/ show lines...we went to rottweill in Germany (it’s a small village) the Breeder vom gruntenblik told me to work her every day and we would see the rewards
This is a really crucial period for your adolescent dog..keep positive,don’t give up and by two you should have a really easy keeper.....best advice is to keep your goals in mind,keep,positive and enjoy your dog.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My vets will come outside to do injections, if you could ask for that. My vets is an old converted house and it's very narrow/claustrophobic so I can understand why some dogs kick off.
Current situation is a pain in the bum, I used to go and hang around at football matches, go into the vets a couple of times a week just to feed the dog, all sorts of mental stuff lol, obviously that's not doable now.
I was taking mine to a feed place car park, but it's really hard to control the general public who want to come over and go YAAAY PUPPY which just hypes her up and it's the opposite that I want.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

My OH said that about him not interacting with strangers! Tbh hes fine when people come in the house, he barks initially but then hes just like oh ok. His full brother (different litter) was apparently like this at the same age but grew out of it. Good idea about the stop whistle. I think a more confident vet wouldve made a hell of a difference last night.

I think that vet is in the wrong job; who the heck is nervous around a young Labrador?

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

So start working with him....get it into your head he’s a working labby even if he’s not..visit the working lab websites..take him on the fields to practice focus,retrieves ,recall...make him work for everything he does at home...he will gain confidence in the fact you are engaging his very active brain..
I did this with my rottie who was from. Working/ show lines...we went to rottweill in Germany (it’s a small village) the Breeder vom gruntenblik told me to work her every day and we would see the rewards
This is a really crucial period for your adolescent dog..keep positive,don’t give up and by two you should have a really easy keeper.....best advice is to keep your goals in mind,keep,positive and enjoy your dog.

He is working lab, prior to lockdown we were going to training class. Roll on 17th when we can go again!!

Thank you

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

My vets will come outside to do injections, if you could ask for that. My vets is an old converted house and it's very narrow/claustrophobic so I can understand why some dogs kick off.
Current situation is a pain in the bum, I used to go and hang around at football matches, go into the vets a couple of times a week just to feed the dog, all sorts of mental stuff lol, obviously that's not doable now.
I was taking mine to a feed place car park, but it's really hard to control the general public who want to come over and go YAAAY PUPPY which just hypes her up and it's the opposite that I want.

Yeah his second puppy jab I took him for was outside and much less stress! Hopefully everything is easing again so mental stuff can restart

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

I think that vet is in the wrong job; who the heck is nervous around a young Labrador?

Honestly it was horrendous, zaz barked and growled when he first went near him but no time was taken to introduce himself and it was all very rushed and horrible!!

 

[Redders]

I am wary of a dog who growls at me, it’s a rung on the ladder of aggression towards a bite. A bite could be career ending for a vet. It doesn’t mean I’m in the wrong profession

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am wary of a dog who growls at me, it’s a rung on the ladder of aggression towards a bite. A bite could be career ending for a vet. It doesn’t mean I’m in the wrong profession

Well Rottweiler certainly didn't growl at the nervous vet. Silly girl ended up getting a senior colleague to examine her, she had no trouble at all but the Rotter was made nervous by the whole palaver and it has taken work and sensible vets to get her over the experience.

 

[druid]

Lots of sensible advice for training, I would say nerves around people are not common in Working labs.

For those questioning the vet - I've been in practices where growling gets you sent home with CHILL protocol sedation and a muzzle for a return visit on another day. These are often places who have experienced a catastrophic injury from a seemingly innocuous dog. One of my classmates can no longer do surgery due to limited hand movement caused by a bite from a labrador......

 

[CorvusCorax]

If one of my adult male dogs needs anything invasive I use a vet who is very experienced with the breed/has had contacts to treat police dogs in the past. He is literally unflappable/has a really great way and that helps the dog relax.
One of mine in particular, if you act sketchy around him, he just takes the mickey.

 

[Clodagh]

I've been thinking about this and I think I agree with Druid and Redders, you can't blame the vet for being wary. Not blaming you either, I think there are going to be a lot of dogs struggling after the last 12 months.
I've had two dogs that didn't like the vets, not from bad experiences they were just opinionated dogs who had personal space and stranger issues. Both just used to be muzzled in the car before we went into reception (BITD when you could do this). They didn't like the muzzle but it kept everyone safe and meant the vet was more confident with them which helped as well.
As it is going to be God knows how long before you can go in the surgery with him I would get him used to a muzzle at home so you can deal with it that way. Ffee growls at people if they try to to touch her but she is just scared at the vets and shuts down rather than react aggressively. She has bitten me before, only over excitement and playing, and it hurts like hell.

 

[Clodagh]

Lots of sensible advice for training, I would say nerves around people are not common in Working labs.

Agree with this, all of ours and every lab I've met out shooting has been confident. Or greedy! Ffee is the first timid one.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

I appreciate the vet being wary, however he then proceeded to drag him along the slippy floor by his collar and lead so I think I would’ve growled at him too. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I won’t let that happen again.

Going forwards we’ve had a good weekend so far. We’ve been into pets at home to pick a new toy (lol), a walk down a very busy prom to get an ice cream (for me not zaz), in those situations he is confident. No barking or nervous behaviour.

We’ve also been to a vet nurse clinic at the local raw feeding shop, zaz didn’t actually need his nails clipping but made friends with the nurse then hung around for a bit chatting to the other dog owners and he went over to say hello of his own accord to them.

That is a good idea about the muzzle clodagh, if it helps the vet be more confident it’s a good thing all round.

Thank you all again for your advice

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would normally ask to see a particular vet but had taken the Rotters to a small satellite surgery and wouldn't have expected the vet to be wary of a perfectly well behaved but 'quiet' not quite adult Rottweiler. Her sister went with her and the vet ignored her, despite the fact that she was the friendliest dog, we have ever had.
We had put *a lot* of effort into socialisation of the pair and it had paid off. If vet had paid attention to the companion, the patient would have been less worried but the vet was frightened of 2 Rottweilers. I am not sure that she was in the right job. I was reminded of a friend who told the vet receptionist 'and don't send the hamster man' when she required a horse vet, after a previous experience.
If the young vet was frightened of/worried by Rottweilers per se, she should have asked her colleague to see us before making the poor dog nervous.
Anyway it's sorted now, she isn't thrilled by the prospect of a vet visit (as her sister always was) but she has got over the worst of her nerves and never threatened anybody in any way.