Second fear phase advise?

[Michen]

I have a lovely 13 month old ESS whose always been a little nervous despite being well socialised. This would only really show in meeting new people and dogs where she would be very submissive and a little cautious before reverting back to a waggy spaniel. However she’s always been really happy meeting people in the pub- whoever approaches!

Rightly or wrongly as I’m living alone in a rural area I’ve never corrected her for barking when someone is at the door, she would simply let out a couple and then stop. She would also do this on the yard if somewhere appeared late and we were on our own so the yard was otherwise quiet. Again I didn’t really think much of it.

However she has recently become more and more reactive and I’m unsure what to do. She will bark (unless it’s someone she knows very well) every time a person arrives onto yard or walks past stable (she stays with me in stables whilst I muck them out which I’ve trained her to do as generally it’s a time where horses are being turned out so I like her to be out of the way and in site) etc- just a single bark or maybe two. If someone tries to speak to her she will go up to them barking, but with her tail wagging however clearly in a submissive posture. Then is fine. I have asked people to just ignore her for now but it’s hit and miss.

It’s really strange because she won’t do it in busy high streets, in the feed shop, out walking, out hacking etc she just ignores people entirely (is called in to heel) but no barking.

I have tried a firm no and it simply makes her more anxious, she is an extremely obedient and biddable dog so for her to continue something when she knows it’s not a wanted behaviour is quite poignant. I am mainly keeping her in site at all times now rather than letting her freely potter around, so I can attempt to correct the behaviour through distraction. I am cautious about calling her in too much because I’m worried it’ll make her think there’s reason to be concerned? At the minute I’m trying to distract her e.g throw a glove or brush or whatnot as she’s a super keen retriever, or with some basic commands but this relies on me seeing someone has arrived and getting my timing right before she sees them. This seems to work but doesn’t seem to be helping when I’m not quick enough to find something to throw or when I don’t see someone has appeared around a corner. Maybe just with more time the behaviour will fade away?

I’d really like to get her out of this habit, she absolutely loves pottering around the yard and playing etc but I don’t want her to continue barking any time someone arrives- it’s a busy yard.

I have been reading about the second fear stage and wondering if this is it, but in hindsight I think this has been ramping up for a while and I haven’t been quick enough to stop it.

She has been well socialised and has been on the yard since she was 8 weeks, twice a day, nearly every day!

Another thing I’m considering is borrowing one of my friends spaniels for a while (she’s offered) to build her confidence. But he’s quite unruly ?

Any suggestions gratefully received, feel ive gone wrong somewhere but unsure how to fix it.

 

[Sandstone1]

I wouldnt be telling her off for it. It sounds like she needs positive reinforcement when meeting new people get them to give her a treat, not when shes barking but when shes quiet. She sounds as if shes insecure.

 

[Clodagh]

Ffee is a nervous barker. I have recently discovered the stop whistle works well, you can even do stop and distract like you are training it from scratch if needed. I’m no help as to why but ‘stop’ has worked so much better than ‘quiet’

 

[Michen]

I wouldnt be telling her off for it. It sounds like she needs positive reinforcement when meeting new people get them to give her a treat, not when shes barking but when shes quiet. She sounds as if shes insecure.

No, I don’t- as I said in my post. I did try it on one or two occasions on recommendation from her gundog trainer but quickly realised that it was not going to have an effect.

I am completely aware it’s insecurity but she has only ever had good experiences with strangers. She’s not really food orientated and is really unlikely to take a treat from someone. Plus I can’t really have all 20 people on the yard carrying chicken for my dog ?

The thing is as well that no one is really a stranger. Most people she sees a couple of times a week and everyone makes a real fuss of her. She will alarm bark at someone’s presence before she’s even see who it is.

 

[Michen]

Ffee is a nervous barker. I have recently discovered the stop whistle works well, you can even do stop and distract like you are training it from scratch if needed. I’m no help as to why but ‘stop’ has worked so much better than ‘quiet’

Oh that’s a good idea. Our trainer has had us stopping to a really quiet, low whistle so I could do that easily at the yard without causing any annoyance. Thank you!

 

[Clodagh]

And I’m really anti the strangers mean treats approach, most people don’t want a dog scrabbling at them and out shooting it’s really annoying.
Ffee doesn’t bark at people out shooting, btw, thank goodness.

 

[Michen]

And I’m really anti the strangers mean treats approach, most people don’t want a dog scrabbling at them and out shooting it’s really annoying.
Ffee doesn’t bark at people out shooting, btw, thank goodness.

Yep she’s been on a couple of rough shoots and you’d think a load of blokes (well, a couple) looking a bit scary would be the worst situation, she doesn’t bat an eyelid!!!

 

[Sandstone1]

And I’m really anti the strangers mean treats approach, most people don’t want a dog scrabbling at them and out shooting it’s really annoying.
Ffee doesn’t bark at people out shooting, btw, thank goodness.

But they are not strangers? Its people she knows? If they are strangers then its probably quite natural and normal to bark if she sees the yard as her space.

 

[Michen]

How old is Ffee Clodagh? Do you think the second fear phase is a “thing” that’s contributed?

I just don’t want to have that dog that could potentially go up to a young person arriving on the yard woofing, even with a waggy tail.

 

[Michen]

But they are not strangers? Its people she knows? If they are strangers then its probably quite natural and normal to bark if she sees the yard as her space.

She would do it to a strange farrier or physio for example as well.

 

[Sandstone1]

Sounds like shes trying to guard what she thinks is her space but is also insecure.

 

[Michen]

Yep I’d agree with that. In hindsight I should have stopped the barking when people were at the door as it’s probably hard to seperate the two but I really do want to know if someone’s outside my house! I really don’t want her barking at people at the yard, i would find it annoying if I was being barked at even if it is just one or two barks.

Tricky.

 

[Clodagh]

But they are not strangers? Its people she knows? If they are strangers then its probably quite natural and normal to bark if she sees the yard as her space.

Ffee still carries on at my stepson, who lives next door and we see a lot. He is not a doggy person and is tall and hairy but still, it is boring listening to her. If you don't want the dog barking or guarding then they need to learn not to bark and guard, IMO, not to rush up to everyone for a treat. I'd rather F just shut up and then 'GALD' (go and lie down). I don't need her opinion on who is allowed in the yard or in my house. Barking when they are in the house and someone knocks at the door is different and fine.

 

[Clodagh]

How old is Ffee Clodagh? Do you think the second fear phase is a “thing” that’s contributed?

I just don’t want to have that dog that could potentially go up to a young person arriving on the yard woofing, even with a waggy tail.

I don't know, Ffee was a confident pup but I didn't socailise her as much as the others and that didn't help. Her brother was socialised a lot and is now a scrabbler, although a 35kg labrador dog jumping all over you is worse than one hiding and barking I think. .
Ffee is 2 now. I don't expect her behaviour to change. When we pass people out on walks she ignores them, she's good when out working. I see your situation is harder with needing her yard neutral. I'm sure it can be achieved.

 

[Michen]

Ffee still carries on at my stepson, who lives next door and we see a lot. He is not a doggy person and is tall and hairy but still, it is boring listening to her. If you don't want the dog barking or guarding then they need to learn not to bark and guard, IMO, not to rush up to everyone for a treat. I'd rather F just shut up and then 'GALD' (go and lie down). I don't need her opinion on who is allowed in the yard or in my house. Barking when they are in the house and someone knocks at the door is different and fine.

Yep just going to be tricky to teach it. There is no point being firm with her over it for sure. Even when I said “no” and sit she just got much more anxious.

I will try the stop whistle though.

 

[Sandstone1]

Ffee still carries on at my stepson, who lives next door and we see a lot. He is not a doggy person and is tall and hairy but still, it is boring listening to her. If you don't want the dog barking or guarding then they need to learn not to bark and guard, IMO, not to rush up to everyone for a treat. I'd rather F just shut up and then 'GALD' (go and lie down). I don't need her opinion on who is allowed in the yard or in my house. Barking when they are in the house and someone knocks at the door is different and fine.

But it sounds like your approach does not work if she is still barking? The idea is not to rush up to strangers for a treat but break the cycle of barking. They only get a treat when not barking, you could try clicker training but what do I know

 

[Clodagh]

Yep just going to be tricky to teach it. There is no point being firm with her over it for sure. Even when I said “no” and sit she just got much more anxious.

I will try the stop whistle though.

Ffee can't be told off, even a FFS turns her into a blancmange! So stop - throw anything(she loves teatowels) for a reward, then she brings me the retrieve and I say GALD. If she didn't lie down I would just say come on, on your bed.

 

[Michen]

Ffee can't be told off, even a FFS turns her into a blancmange! So stop - throw anything(she loves teatowels) for a reward, then she brings me the retrieve and I say GALD. If she didn't lie down I would just say come on, on your bed.

The joys of a keen retriever. I just pick up a handful of straw sometimes and Chuck that ?

 

[Clodagh]

But it sounds like your approach does not work if she is still barking? The idea is not to rush up to strangers for a treat but break the cycle of barking. They only get a treat when not barking, you could try clicker training but what do I know

She stops and GALDs now. If I didn't do the stop she would carry on. She GALDs in the other room. It works for us. I'm beyond paranoid about theft so don't want her being friendly to and approaching strangers and I don't generally like other peoples dogs that much so I assume other people don't want mine up at them either. We are happy with how it works.

 

[maisie06]

Mt Springer is the same, very highly strung and insecure, I get him to sit and hold a dummy while a strager walks past, like others have said, he's fine in busy places and fine on a shoot when he's focused on the job in hand.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Probably a combination of genetics and insecurity. It's a lot to ask a dog to discern 'bark at these strangers coming to a place I consider a safe haven/but not this other place I also consider a safe haven'.

You've already identified that giving her something to do works so I'd keep on with that or some variation of that. Unfortunately it's really hard to train a dog to do/not do something if you are doing something else (barn chores etc).

I'm working with quite a sketchy dog at the moment and when he's around people we just chuck food on the floor randomly/discreetly while he's already eating, it's not about encouraging dogs to mug people for treats, he probably wouldn't take it from the hand and I wouldn't want to give it by hand TBH. It's about making a positive association when he's around people so he doesn't feel the need to kick off/stays calm/neutral.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

I couldve written this pretty much word for word Michen, my dog is the same (12 month old lab), however my dog did have a bad experience with an inexperienced vet.

Happliy walk down a busy prom or sit in a busy pub/cafe no bother. Keeping my dog in sight especially at the yard, which is a shame as he loves pottering about but cant have him running up to people barking (especially the yard owners!!), also been at the yard from 8 weeks.

Currently trying the distraction technique which is working well, I'm hoping the behaviour will fade away with time and work, fingers crossed!

 

[Michen]

Just thought I’d Update this, she’s so much better at the yard. I’m not really sure what changed to be honest she just seems to have grown out of it a bit.

She will still bark at the odd person and if she’s in the garden and people walk past the house (but I guess most dogs do that!?). However she’s much improved at the yard and that was the main issue so I’m pleased!

 

[Clodagh]

Good update. Ffee’s ‘stop’ now means she barks when she hears the gate but once I speak to the ‘interloper’ she GALDs without prompting. So all good.