'See-sawing' and its effects?

(purposefully being vague her so bear with me)

if a horse is being ridden and its head is actually rocking side to side with the rein pulling left, right, left, right etc would you imagine it to be in pain?

Could this pain be expressed as rearing perhaps?
 
Paint Me Proud said:
(purposefully being vague her so bear with me)

if a horse is being ridden and its head is actually rocking side to side with the rein pulling left, right, left, right etc would you imagine it to be in pain?

Could this pain be expressed as rearing perhaps?
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Potentially, different horses react differently, mine would run off sideways and lock her jaw if you sawed, other's might be more disposed to back off and then if necessary go up. It depends how bad the sawing is and how reactive the horse is to discomfort.
 
Paint Me Proud said:
(purposefully being vague her so bear with me)

if a horse is being ridden and its head is actually rocking side to side with the rein pulling left, right, left, right etc would you imagine it to be in pain?

Could this pain be expressed as rearing perhaps?
Click to expand...

If the rider is less than gentle with their hands then yes I do think this could cause a horse discomfort and rearing is a common expression of pain. Even if it is being done with gentle aids what you have described would annoy the hell out of many horses and cause them to react.
 
The horse might try to grab at the bit, go behind the vertical to get away from it or throw the head in the air to evade its action, they might try and draw the tongue back and putting it over the bit. The tail might swish, the back braced and the lips curled up.
 
I've done it once and I'm not proud, but I am glad I did. The horse had bolted (Actually bolted, not tanked off) and was headed towards a large pile of logs and sticks that looked like a hunt jump. It wasn't and had barbed wire on the other side. If he had gone over, he would have landed and gone straight into it, it would have been catastrophic for both of us.

I mustered all my strength and see-sawed as hard as I could, which must have thankfully got him listening to me again and I managed to steer him to the side just in time. I felt bad as he obviously didn't like it, he was chomping and playing with the bit all the way home, which he never does. Still, rather a bit of a sore mouth for a short while, than barbed wire embedded in him (or me!)
He was checked and was fine, just a little tender.
 
See sawing - OK, push your finger nail into your bottom lip, a bit uncomfy, but not horrendous? Now push your finger nail into the gum underneath your front teeth. Ow Ow Ow.

So how do horses show this pain.

1. They run away - reach for a stronger bit
2. They stop going - reach for the spurs and whip
3. They suck the tongue back in the mouth - strap it down with a noseband
4. Cross the jaw - a different noseband.
5. Buck, Bolt or Rear - gadgets and more hauling.
6. Sit behind the vertical - lots of people love this because the back is hyper extended and comfy to sit on - not for the horse though.
7. Moves it's head side to side - they get terrible headaches and this has an immediate effect on the forelegs and can contribute to Navicular.

More effects? Over development of the gluteal muscles, Upper respiratory tract problems, not enough development of the bottom line muscles, the list is endless.

Read this: Dynamic respiratory videoendoscopy in ridden sport horses: Effect of head flexion, riding and airway http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2011.00492.x/pdf

Enjoy
 
dont worry, it's not my horse i'm on about.

Just know of a horse that is a chronic rearer and saw it ridden recently and the see-sawing action was so bad i had to stop watching. I was interested to know if the sawing action could be why the horse rears so much. Seems it may well be, thanks. I wont be able to help the horse though sadly.
 
I have seen many horses that are seesawed to get them down on the bit trotting along rocking their head from side to side and, when they are given a long rein at the trot continue to do the same.

I think that if you are riding a very strong horse that seesawing is one of the few ways to actually hold them in a semblance of control and an entirely different matter!
 
This can became a habit that the horse picks up and they do it automatically at one time I rode a lot of horses on a show jumping yard they where lunged a lot and I mean a lot in pessoas most of them had a horrible nose wobbles front side to side .
 
I know a BSPS judge who complains bitterly that he sees far too many riders these days, who fiddle around with the bit, pulling their horse's head from side to side, to 'get it on the bit', instead of using their seat and legs to ride it from behind. He says that it always adversely affects the horse's way of going, in one way or another.
 
I know of a horse with excellent management (plenty of turnout/appropriate feed etc) who was sent away to a professional to be broken in.

Said professional likes to use draw reins, beatings and force to break a horse in.

The horse (years later and still traumatised) was found to have stomach ulcers after some explosive behaviour under saddle.

Vet believes they were caused by stress.

I would never under-estimate the prevalence of stomach ulcers in domestic horses.
 
This habit is caused by riders see-sawing as a way to get the horse on the bit. The horse sometimes anticipates and does it by itself. I found this once when I rode a clients horse. His head went side to side as he trotted without me doing anything to facilitate it. I soon saw why, when I gave the owner a lesson, as her hands alternated backwards and forewards. She was completely unaware she was doing it and it took weeks to cure the habit. Now the horse is nice and still in his head. My point is, not all see-sawing is painful, but it is a very bad habit.
 
As a relative novice and someone who has been taught to 'sponge' the reins to get the bit moving in the horse's mouth so they take up a contact, could someone explain the right way to get them to work in an outline?

I was taught in a very well-regarded riding school and this was the way we were taught, combined with pushing the horse forwards from the leg and keeping enough contact that they aren't rushing but getting their hind legs underneath them.

I'm concerned that I (and others who have been taught this way) aren't riding correctly and may be damaging the horse's mouth.

What is the best way to get a horse working properly?
 
Paint Me Proud said:
dont worry, it's not my horse i'm on about.

Just know of a horse that is a chronic rearer and saw it ridden recently and the see-sawing action was so bad i had to stop watching. I was interested to know if the sawing action could be why the horse rears so much. Seems it may well be, thanks. I wont be able to help the horse though sadly.
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I expect it can! If someone is resorting to sawing a horses mouth I'm sure there will be lots of other confusing signals getting to the horse. :(
More subtle expressions of pain are flared nostrils, eyes open wide even showing whites, pained expression, severe tension, throwing head up, gaping mouth etc. etc.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I have seen many horses that are seesawed to get them down on the bit trotting along rocking their head from side to side and, when they are given a long rein at the trot continue to do the same.

I think that if you are riding a very strong horse that seesawing is one of the few ways to actually hold them in a semblance of control and an entirely different matter!
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Your user name says it all.......:rolleyes:
 
The-mad-cat-lady said:
Your user name says it all.......:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I have literally no idea what you mean by that, aside from belittling a user from her name alone which is unspeakably rude IMO...

Anyway, see-sawing to get a horse to work on the bit or to hold a horse's head in the 'correct' place is quite common in younger teenagers I've seen (as well as older riders!), who know what they want to achieve in looks but go about it incorrectly. It usually results in a horse who is holding the bit and is tense through the neck and back. I suppose if they held themselves like that enough it could cause seriously sore muscles...

To stop a horse who has gotten strong, it can be effective- it gives them less of a contact to lean on and so they can't use your own pull against you, so to speak. It's much better than just pitting your own weight against the horse's I reckon!
 
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