See-sawing.

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Hanz

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Now while I personally would choose not to do this, I would like your opinion on my horse.

I have had Scribbles for 3 and a half years and to cut a long story short he cannot trot, when ridden in the school. He has had the usual checked, all being well, been lunged and longreined to the eyeballs with side reins, chambon, de gogue , ridden in draw reins etc by various people to try and stop him hollowing his back, putting his ears in your mouth and sending his legs everywhere in a mix between walk/trot/canter/dancing. We have tried (it feels like) everybit under the sun, as well as nosebands to try and get a nice even trot...or any trot, as a matter of fact.

Now somebody from my new yard offered to help me with him the other day, so she got on him to see what he did and brought a million other bits to try with him...she got him walking and trotting nicely in an outline within 5 minutes.

Great? Yes. Although she was sawing on his mouth to get his head down like that, then held her hands really low to keep his head there, he didnt really fight it, and his whole body WAS rounder and he WAS using his back end like he does on the lunge...but sawing on his mouth to get his head down defies everything I have been taught. She described it as 'playing with the bit'.

So, this is a major breakthrough that he is trotting in an even, flowing rythm, and I mean major, but I dont really agree with see sawing. Do you think that I should bend the rules and be a bit more harsh with my hands until he gives in, or should I keep trying waiting for somehting to click, which to be honest, has got us nowhere for the last 3 years or so.

Preparing to get shot down now, I am on the fence myself as I never thought I would even consider it, but the results were actually amazing.

Also just to add, it's not the fact it made him 'put his head in and look pretty' it's the fact he was TROTTING.

Anything constructive is greatly appreciated
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ETA: Just read that back and we have tried different riding methods and techniques, not solely relied on gadgets, we simply tried these out to see if any helped, he is now lunged in side reins and hacked out in draw reins very rarely, once every two months maybe.
 
Lol!! I know what you mean. I don't like people see-sawing as a standard way of riding (and it amazes me just how many people do this!), however sometimes, just sometimes, these methods do get the ball rolling. If it were me, I would turn a blind eye to it as it was not really a negative, but actually managed to get the horse going properly. Perhaps this was just the jolt he needed? Sometimes you have to do things which go against the grain and if the results are positive then I can't see any major problem with it, I just wouldn't make a habit of riding in this fashion.
 
Agree with Tia, may just be the way to get the ball rolling. Once he figures it out, you *should* be able to 'hold' it as an even contact. Bit wise, have you tried a waterford, or even one of those training bits with the bits to play with?

Is he a heavier breed by the way? Irish? Or older? In which case (older or Irish) probably more likely to be heavy on the forehand, or just not use to the action, and the uncomfotable action made him go 'bugger it' and react. My mare (in sig) is like that, and I will admit I do end up having a saw before she starts working, but then can take up a light contact. She is Irish. And a mare.

Only problem with sawing is that it can make them go onto the forehand, so just watch for it.
 
I think he has a bit of welshie, bit of TB, bit of this and that. Yes the next bit the lady put in him was a waterford, but she said there wasnt really much difference.

Thanks for your opinions, maybe I should be a bit more open minded about this then.
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Our NF x is just like this; Trotting? what trotting!! walk, fine, canter a bit manic, head in your face!

However , last week I tried a Myler Combination bit, although at first he was still a bit racey, he has settled down and we have had two lessons now where is putting his head down.
Ok, not the whole lesson, it still comes up when he anticipates canter (Not been schooled for over a year) but I feel he really likes this bit.
 
if you are absolutely positive that there is nothing wrong with his back or neck (as i have known of horses that COULD not work 'round' because of physical problems) then this sounds like a means to an end. i'd try to do as little sawing as possible, but if it works, and you can gradually refine the movement in the horse's mouth, at least he's going along the right lines finally!
 
As a means to an end I can't seen too much of a problem, as long as it doesn't become the norm. If he goes around "with his ears in your mouth" he's going to do himself a mischief.

Last week I was riding I nice horse who should know better but if you cantered for more than 3/4 of the school his head went down and (If i was perhaps a bit lighter) he would pull you straight over his head! Q quick, short, sharp 1,2,1,2 got his head up, back in control with no injury to either of us! I would only do this is a realtivly mild bit (this particular was a fulmer) esp as reiding school horses are often underbitted.
 
When I bought my anglo, he was ridden like this by previous owners. They used to saw on his mouth and he was very hard in the mouth. Eventually he was being ridden in a 3 ring dutch gag (on bottom ring) with running martingale and very tight flash.

It took about 9 months for my instructor (classical) to re-educate his mouth to yield and accept the contact at a vibration of the rein to ask for flexion and using your leg and seat to push him into the bridle. I do spend quite a bit of time schooling in hand to accept the bit and also I spend about 20 mins in walk, asking him to yield to the rein.

Every so often he can harden his mouth against the hand and really try to tank off. At these times you need to give and take the contact ever so slightly - this is not the backwards and forwards motion of the see saw but you move your hand every so slightly forward and then back to the correct position. If he leans, this movement is emphasised a bit more and more leg is used to get him off the forehand.

He is ridden in an ordinary bog standard snaffle - I tried every bit available too and in the end he liked a Mark Todd £7 snaffle (typical). Also, what does your instructor think?
 
Was the see-sawing movement coming from her shoulders/elbows or was she simply opening & closing her hands alternately and flexing the horse by just moving the bit around a little?
I don't ever see-saw but flexing my horses jaw can help stop him being so tense & set in his neck & jaw and encourage him to work rounder.
I'd see it as a means to an end like the others have said and try to refine the movement until he'll respond to open or closed fingers.
 
What was the extent of the see-sawing?

I have been taught in trot to GENTLY swing my hips and shoulders a bit - and thus my hands - to encourage Beau to come down and work rounder. It was VERY gently, but you could notice it. After a while the movement would move on to just being squeezes on the rein and not noticeable. I had to do this as he had been ridden in a 3 ring gag for years and so had a 'fake' contact and was behind the bit and hollow.

At no time though did this resemble a fight, more like we were dancing along in trot (if that makes sense).

I have seen quite a lot of people use the method of basically leaning forwards and putting your hands at your knees almost and whilst it does work the horse WILL revert back when u take up a normal position as of course the pressure on the mouth will change.

Your gelding sounds like my sisters old pony, he was Arab x Welsh and could be VERY hollow when he got excited, trot was like an excited foal - legs everywhere and all over the place. I am not really sure what she did to get him to work properly, but that was back in the 90's and he was a jumping pony and well, folk seem to like them like that!
 
I think its one of those things as said that does get it started. Once developing the muscles should be an easier way of going for him and it come more naturally.
CBAnglo- I know exactly what you mean about the bottom ring of the three ring gag thing with a hard mouth. Ridden two horses now who have had the exact same thing but the three ring gag was used to get their heads down. Cringe! and re-educating is so time consuming...back to baby steps.
 
I think the bottom ring was to get the head down ... as was the martingale. He used to be very hollow in his back and be behind the bit so head looked nice but he was on the forehand and not working from behind. As soon as he put his head up he used to take hold of the bit and tank off.

Another thing I have done is to work the horse alternating the flexion every couple of strides - this makes them looser in their neck and poll and encourages them to work deeper in the neck. My hands can follow the neck down but I do not ride about in hands fixed around my knees.

To be honest, it sounds as though you need to spend more time suppling your horse through its back and re-educating him to accept the bit and a light contact. If there is resistance to the contact, he will not want to round his back under the rider. As Tuppence88 says, it is so time consuming but necessary to really get the horse moving correctly.
 
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