seedy toe

[georgiegirl]

Poor george has a touch of seedy toe in one of his hind feet Unfortunately i wasnt able to be present when the farrier was here today although mum tells me has has cut an area out.

Just looking for peoples advice on what i should be doing with it in the meantime and what to apply to it (its not someting ive ever had to deal with before!)

will be ringing the vets tomorrow to see what they advise.

 

[Izzwizz]

When a mare we owned had it we had to scrub it clean with salt water then spray with Iodine. It worked and the cut away area has to be exposed to fresh air to kill the seedy toe.
We repeated this twice to three times daily. Farrier did tell us to keep her in for a week in a clean stable to keep her out of the mud but she was a stressy girl and we couldnt do that.

 

[brucea]

definitely keep it open to fresh air. These bacteria hate fresh air!

Can be quite persistent. I used White Lightening gel which was effective (but a bit pricey)

 

[ImogenBurrows]

Another vote for opening it up and exposing it to fresh air! The iodine works well and is quite drying so helps from that perspective too.
Keep it clean and dry for heaven's sake and make sure the farrier gets the whole area cleared out or it will track higher!

Imogen

 

[mrdarcy]

Hope no one here is recommending a hoof wall resection - please don't!

The black cacky stuff can be cleaned out and then the gap sprayed with apple cider vinegar twice a day. Other people use Clean Trax or similar products but I've found apple cider vinegar just as effective.

Seedy toe is just another name for white line disease and is triggered by inflammation and then decay of some of the laminae in the hoof. This creates a weakness, dead tissue material and a gap where the bacteria and fungii can invade. The initial inflammation is almost always caused by diet related toxins - i.e too much sugar in the diet, either fromgrass or hard feed. So have a look at his diet. Other causes of inflammation of the laminae are illness/drug treatment/chemical wormers.

Hope you get on top of it soon

 

[amandap]

I've cleared a few deep seedy toe areas with soaks and packing. It's more 'work' than resection but if it's a large area much less likely to compromise the strength and stability of the hoof imo. Also a large resected area leaves the internal hoof structure vulnerable to impact damage.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

Hope no one here is recommending a hoof wall resection - please don't!

The black cacky stuff can be cleaned out and then the gap sprayed with apple cider vinegar twice a day. Other people use Clean Trax or similar products but I've found apple cider vinegar just as effective.

Seedy toe is just another name for white line disease and is triggered by inflammation and then decay of some of the laminae in the hoof. This creates a weakness, dead tissue material and a gap where the bacteria and fungii can invade. The initial inflammation is almost always caused by diet related toxins - i.e too much sugar in the diet, either fromgrass or hard feed. So have a look at his diet. Other causes of inflammation of the laminae are illness/drug treatment/chemical wormers.

Hope you get on top of it soon

I've cleared a few deep seedy toe areas with soaks and packing. It's more 'work' than resection but if it's a large area much less likely to compromise the strength and stability of the hoof imo. Also a large resected area leaves the internal hoof structure vulnerable to impact damage.

I wouldn't be afraid of doing a dorsal wall resection if required. Mostly I don't see cases that need this but occasionally it can be called for to clear all the crap out (veterinary technical term ). IF a DWR is done then I will pretty much ALWAYS be doing it with the farrier and we put rim or bar shoes with fracture plates on to stabilise the hoof capsule preventing the painful spreading action.

Amandap - what do you mean by impact damage? Do you mean trauma directly on the exposed underlying tissues?

Imogen

 

[amandap]

Amandap - what do you mean by impact damage? Do you mean trauma directly on the exposed underlying tissues?

Imogen

Yes, the foot kicking a stone etc. if a large resection is performed and left with no protection.

 

[mrdarcy]

IF a DWR is done then I will pretty much ALWAYS be doing it with the farrier.

Imogen

I should hope so! It's a surgical procedure and should only be done by a vet never a farrier, with associated pain relief of course. Personally I'd never let a DWR be done on any of my horses. Simply not necessary. Get the diet sorted and healthy hoof will grow down. Treating seedy toe without addressing diet is pretty pointless as at some point it will return.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

I should hope so! It's a surgical procedure and should only be done by a vet never a farrier, with associated pain relief of course.

Thanks for clarifying

Personally I'd never let a DWR be done on any of my horses. Simply not necessary.

I'm sure just mean for seedy toe cases....I agree that it's rarely necessary but never is a little short sighted. Maybe I've just seen cases left for way too long...

Get the diet sorted and healthy hoof will grow down. Treating seedy toe without addressing diet is pretty pointless as at some point it will return.

This is certainly a very valid point...but you have to clear out the crap in there simultaneously - at least it'll certainly speed up the healing time IME.

 

[Spinal Tap]

It could be a sign that the toes are getting too long, this can create mechanical leverage on the hoof wall which separates the white line & an opportunistic infection can get in. My mare had seedy toe when her shoes came off, I treated the infection & her trimmer took her toes back and put a big roll on them to take the pressure off the white line. She was also put on a high fibre, forage only diet. I was amazed at how quickly it healed up, I thought that once the white line had separated you had a hole & just had to wait for it to grow out but the separation did seem to close up. She sometimes gets a touch of separation and infection if I let her walls get too long (diet will be playing a major part too because this only happens when the grass is growing) & the way to address this is principally via trimming rather than treating the infection. Obviously if the horse is shod you are dependent on the farrier to trim, you can't do it yourself, which is why I'd be tempted to have a chat with them.

There a theory that white line infections help the horse shed excess wall which could be damaging by weakening it when it gets too long That fits in with what I see with my horse.

Good luck, I hope you get it sorted

 

[Baileyhoss]

Seedy toe is NOT always caused by or treatable by diet & good farriers are perfectly capable of treating the condition and advising on it.

Primary causes of WLD include damp conditions, poor or improper trimming or shoeing, conformation or trauma (as with mine),

This post will hopefully give you some reassurances and an effective method for treatment.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=397111&page=2

 

[brucea]

I'm sure just mean for seedy toe cases....I agree that it's rarely necessary but never is a little short sighted. Maybe I've just seen cases left for way too long...

What about a judicious dremmel and a "treatment hole" above the seedy toe...so you can get antibacterial liquid and soak down through it using gravity....a bit less radical, but may help in seated stuborn cases.

 

[georgiegirl]

my farrier thinks its possibly due to georges hock spavins? He hasnt had the joint medicated for a couple of years now and has noticed that he is wearing his hind toes a little more than normal which could have indeed led to this - his vaccination is due end of november so i'll be discussing his hocks with the vet then if he feels they need injecting again, he certainly isnt lame. He said it is only the very beginning of seedy toe (shod religiously every 5-6 weeks) and has cut away a semi circle of horn probably no bigger than a 10p piece. he has his masters in remedial/corrective shoeing and its one of his special intrests so i do trust him implicitly.

Today I've scrubbed his foot inside and out and then tubbed him with clorhexidine, allowed it all to totally dry out and then coated it all in betadine spray.

farrier has suggested using formalin? although i know from working with it its pretty potent stuff!

i certainly havent seen any gunk or anything in the area though?

 

[mrdarcy]

Seedy toe is NOT always caused by or treatable by diet & good farriers are perfectly capable of treating the condition and advising on it.

Primary causes of WLD include damp conditions, poor or improper trimming or shoeing, conformation or trauma (as with mine),

This post will hopefully give you some reassurances and an effective method for treatment.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=397111&page=2

Sorry - I disagree. Damp conditions exacerbate the condition as it is perfect breeding ground for bacteria and fungii but you still need the white line to be weakened/damaged first to allow infection to take hold. The white line separation/damage always happens first and this is almost always caused by diet. The condition is also worsened by shoes as you again create the perfect environment for bacteria to flourish, plus you have vastly reduced the circulation in the foot. And we all know that circulation is essential to keep soft tissues healthy. If wet conditions were the initial cause why don't all horses that live in wet or muddy conditions get WLD? And I really don't get how conformation could cause WLD - examples please!!!!

 

[Laura1812]

Seedy toe is NOT always caused by or treatable by diet & good farriers are perfectly capable of treating the condition and advising on it.

Primary causes of WLD include damp conditions, poor or improper trimming or shoeing, conformation or trauma (as with mine),

This post will hopefully give you some reassurances and an effective method for treatment.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=397111&page=2

I agree - read Spinal Taps post above

 

[amandap]

Interestingly my horses were at my Sisters place on the banks of the river Shannon in Ireland for a good few months. All except two of mine and one of my sisters had access to the river and loved wading and standing in it. All of the ones who went in the river developed WLD to a greater or lesser degree and the other three didn't. My sister has recently allowed hers access again for a short period and three of hers have again developed WLD...

How do you get emotions on the posts? I can't seem to be able to do it.

 

[brucea]

WLD needs separation to start with - it can be aggravated by dampness etc., but the underlying cause is usually intollerances and metabolic challenges.

It may be the case that thiose wiht access to the river were already challenged, it may be the case that they cannot tollerate the lusher growth found around the river.

 

[Laura1812]

WLD needs separation to start with - it can be aggravated by dampness etc., but the underlying cause is usually intollerances and metabolic challenges.

Brucea how do you know this to be the case?

 

[amandap]

I didn't mention that the hooves probably weren't 100% healthy but some appeared to have 'tight' white lines prior to the river. I'm quite prepared to accept the river wasn't the only influence/cause. I just found it interesting. Perhaps the river harbours some really virulent bugs in the mud or is especially alkaline? The run off to the river on the land is alkaline...

The plants were something we thought of at the time. My sister has since spared no expense fencing off the river, having her soils tested and appropriately dressed ready for growing her own haylage which she has done the last two years now. Perhaps the river is just the 'tipping' point.
Funnily enough the ones that were excluded from the river where the 'challanged' ones not necessarily metabolically but physically and with recovering very sick hooves on one.

 

[brucea]

Becuase it needs a compromised white line to start with.

 

[Laura1812]

But a compromised white line isn't always caused by intolerances or metabolic issues

In fact is there any evidence linking diet/metabolic isses with a compromised white line with the exception of laminitis?

Flares / mechanical tearing / long toes IMO are the most common cause of a stretched white line.

 

[amandap]

Actually, I didn't think the white line could tear mechanically provided it is healthy. Didn't some experiments show the hoof horn breaks before the lamina separate? So in the case of long hooves with healthy lamina wouldn't they just chip and break? Have I got this wrong?

 

[mrdarcy]

Actually, I didn't think the white line could tear mechanically provided it is healthy. Didn't some experiments show the hoof horn breaks before the lamina separate? So in the case of long hooves with healthy lamina wouldn't they just chip and break? Have I got this wrong?

That's my understanding and certainly what we've been taught.

White line disease is evidence of low grade laminitis - not sure why people try to differentiate... laminitis simply means inflammation of the laminae. So what most people know as laminitis is a full blown acute attack but there are many different grades and levels of inflammation between an acutally laminitic foot and a healthy foot.

 

[Kc Mac]

Georgiegirl - hope your George is ok. I know you are treating it now but thought I would still add my bit

My tb regularly gets seedy toe and has a little bit cut out. Unfortunately its to do with her conformation (3 flat feet and 1 upright). The upright hoof ends up getting a crack in the toe and in goes the bacteria

My best method is using a toothbrush and neat hibiscrub, scrub out the hole, dry and spray with purple spray. As she lives out I will repeat twice daily.

As others have mentioned the bacteria are anerobic, meaning oxygen kills it

 

[Horsey87]

My mare had mild seedy toe earlier this year, farrier came and 'dug' out the area, he then cleaned it and packed it with cotton wool, then put on a shoe (she was barefoot). It worked great, and she's now barefoot again

 

[LucyPriory]

I am currently working on a horse which had been so 'interestingly' shod that it would appear that the lamella attachment was slowly being torn (probably with every step). The hoof wall shows hundreds of the finest/thinest event lines. The shoes were a different shape to the feet and were IMO much too big - the hoof wall had been grown long and then 'bent' out to fit. There is a theory doing the rounds in this area that modern hooves are too small so the foot needs to be stretched bigger.

Since the deshoeing the stretched white line has grown out. Coincidence? Maybe.

Likewise I find WLD much more prevelent in the feet I deshoe. None of them are pretty

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/cant-see-foot-for-shoes.html


The barefoot horses which are worked hard, kept in urine free environments and fed in accordance with their needs don't seem to get it. I have seen a good horse get it because they had to stand in pee rather too much, but even then it wasn't awful.

I've only got seedy toe in deshod and/or previously badly trimmed horses (these are resolving with decent, frequent rolls and normal thrush treatments). Except one little darling that repeatedly kicks the cr*p out of his stable and has damaged the tip of his foot. We will have to see how that one goes.

 

[brucea]

In fact is there any evidence linking diet/metabolic isses with a compromised white line with the exception of laminitis?

I have always believed laminitis is a spectrum - and some horses (probably all at some time) are soewhere on that spectrum.

Of my 4, 3 are on that spectrum - one quite far to the right and the others on the left sidea lot less severe.

A compromised white line is efectively laminitis - an early warning sign that your horse is on that spectrum and you shoud take action. I have seldm seen a horse with a compromised white line that does not have at least one other indicator (weight, crest, temperament changes, mood issues, hesitancy, unwillingness to go on the rougher ground, itchiness, filled sheath.....they are all there if you look!)

By the way I have recurrent seedy toe in one of mine - he has been deshod for 4 years now. he was shod with a toe clip, My belief is that the altered forces imposed by the toe clip have permanently damaged the hoof. We get rid of it, and it comes back. His toes are not long, they are kept turned...

 

[amandap]

I have always believed laminitis is a spectrum - and some horses (probably all at some time) are soewhere on that spectrum.

That's my understanding too. The word laminitis has such dreadful and frightening associations in peoples minds (with good reason ) it's very difficult for the word to be used for WLD, stretched white line, ripples, flare when this is the cause... people (including me in the past) switch off and say my horse hasn't got laminitis and then disregard all diet etc. advice and look for other reasons.

I would imagine most of mine are on this spectrum sadly and getting diet right is very difficult with having to buy hay in and it being so variable etc. I've taken to soaking it now for all 6... must get that 'bath' installed outside.

Reading LucyPriory's post is a reminder to keep an open mind too.

 

[tommy30]

WLD needs to be exposed to get rid of it. Fact. If that means resecting the dorsal wall then so be it. A farrier should do this, with or without a vets guidance depending upon the severity. Most vets I deal with wouldnt want to do it anyway, and respect my judgement enough to let me do it without assistance. Why would pain relief be needed?! Dead and decaying tissue is being removed. Its very very rare for a WLD resection to ever involve blood, and is therefore NOT a surgical procedure.

Mr Darcy, how many feet with large aread of WLD have you 'cured' by adjusting the diet alone? Not any is my bet. I wish unqualified people would stop dishing out advise/information that is wrong.