seedy toe

[Baileyhoss]

This is the second person I have seen recently on this forum who has posted asking for advice on clearing up a bit of WLD only to be told that their horse is on the brink of laminitis, it's totally unfair to say that. By all means, tell the poster that WLD can be caused by weaknesses in the hoof one cause of which MIGHT be laminitis, but it's not the only or the most common cause.

I would suggest that the OP assesses the OVERALL health of her horse including looking for symptoms of lamitis and takes advice from her farrier and does her own research as to the causes of WLD and which causes may apply to her horse.

laminitis in one of the many conditions that leaves a foot vulnerable to wld, the 2 conditions are not directly related.

My own horse, and two other horses at our yard had the same the same condition, UNRELATED completely to laminits or diet, two were caused by poor trimming (one poor farrier and one barefoot trimmer) and one caused by trauma (a small cut in the coronet, growing down to create a weakness, which opened a crack out hacking one day) All of these horses were treated completely and successfully with constant cleaning of the area, and proper trimming - not by adjusting diet. Owners listened to advice from trimmers & farriers and did our own research.


a quick google found this information: http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/0197hoof.shtml

http://www.equi-therapy.net/equi-therapy/horse-veterinary/white-line-disease.shtml

 

[amandap]

WLD needs to be exposed to get rid of it. Fact.


I wish unqualified people would stop dishing out advise/information that is wrong.

I've only had one horse with WLD treated with a small quarter resection for WLD... when my others got quite deep and severe WLD I treated them with soaks, plugging and dietry changes. They all cleared. Resection/opening is not required, my personal experience ensures me that this is a fact.

I'm unquallified in hoof care and I'm not a vet but I have given daily care to my horses that have had WLD so I feel qualified to say what worked for me.
If unquallified people shouldn't give advice there would be no Forum! Like many conditions there are various ways to treat, it's up to the owner to make informed choices.

An article from 2005 http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line_disease.htm#Whiteline

 

[LucyPriory]

Nooooo Amandap - you must be a witch like me......... one of the benefits of belonging to an evil cult.

A bit of dancing naked in the light of a full moon and then roll around in the first dew drops. That is what cures WLD .......

(The sight of me rolling around starkers is enough to cure anyone of anything!) Or they die of shock first. Either way job done!

 

[amandap]

I belong to the cult of me! lol Perhaps I am evil?

Tell you what LucyPriory, I wont be joining a cult that rolls naked in dew! It's too cold and I'm too old! Fair play to you!
I want a cult that drinks steaming potions.

 

[LucyPriory]

I blame it on my mother........

but you will have to get me to drink lots and lots of steaming potions (with alcohol) before I confess all my secrets.

And the only steaming potions I actually drink are tea or coffee..........

on account of the negative effect alcohol has on my ability to cast spells...........

 

[Spinal Tap]

WLD needs to be exposed to get rid of it. Fact.

I presume you mean exposed to the air. Are you a microbiologist? I was once and I don't I agree. Sure, the fungi that cause WLD don't like oxygen a great deal, but there's other ways to get rid of them. My understanding is they are opportunistic pathogens that will colonise, multiply & may cause a problem when the environment is right for them. When the environment is less favourable they don't cause a problem. Do you have a reference to some research that supports what you say?

 

[georgiegirl]

wow, i seem to have sparked quite a debate here!

george is certainly not on the verge of laminitis - my farrier is highly experienced and has special interest in surgical/remedial shoeing etc im sure he would have said so.

his opinion is that his hock spavins are starting to cause problems again as he is taking his back toes off more than usual and this trauma could attribute towards the seedy toe. (hock spavins being injected in dec)

so, he has a small piece cut away right at the front of his right hind - 10p sized. for the moment im scrubbing this out every other day with hibiscrub, letting it dry and then coating with betadine spray (iodine). george is also out in a dry, fairly bare paddock. anything else i can be doing to help?

 

[tommy30]

I presume you mean exposed to the air. Are you a microbiologist? I was once and I don't I agree. Sure, the fungi that cause WLD don't like oxygen a great deal, but there's other ways to get rid of them. My understanding is they are opportunistic pathogens that will colonise, multiply & may cause a problem when the environment is right for them. When the environment is less favourable they don't cause a problem. Do you have a reference to some research that supports what you say?

No Im not a microbiologist, I'm a farrier. Perhaps I should of made that clear in my original post. I agree that if the environment is inhospitable they wont have a place to colonise, but how can you make an area of decaying horn an inhospitable environment for these fungi and bacteria? Do they suddenly just stop multiplying and invading healthy tissue? One way of making the environment less suitiable is to remove it all together, ie a resection. IME it works 100% of the time. If it didnt work I wouldnt do it. I have never had any negative consequences from doing it, although I have come across many areas of WLD that have previously been treated in not such an aggresive manner, and I cant off the top of my head think of a single one that has cleared up completely.

As for research, no I dont have any references to support my claims. Are there any independant, unbiased papers supporting your theory?

I can however reference some case studies for you to look at....

Floyd, A. and Mansmann, R. (2007) Equine Podiatry, pp 249-252

Wildenstein, M. (2006) Treating White Line Disease And seedy Toe, Corrective Farriery Volume 2 pp 441-445

Van Nassau, R., (2004) Hoof Problems, pp 191-196

Pollit, C., (1995) The Horses Foot, pp 117-118

Or you could pick a name at random from a list of farriers and equine vets and ask what they find works the best.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

What about a judicious dremmel and a "treatment hole" above the seedy toe...so you can get antibacterial liquid and soak down through it using gravity....a bit less radical, but may help in seated stuborn cases.

No Im not a microbiologist, I'm a farrier. Perhaps I should of made that clear in my original post. I agree that if the environment is inhospitable they wont have a place to colonise, but how can you make an area of decaying horn an inhospitable environment for these fungi and bacteria? Do they suddenly just stop multiplying and invading healthy tissue? One way of making the environment less suitiable is to remove it all together, ie a resection. IME it works 100% of the time. If it didnt work I wouldnt do it. I have never had any negative consequences from doing it, although I have come across many areas of WLD that have previously been treated in not such an aggresive manner, and I cant off the top of my head think of a single one that has cleared up completely.

As for research, no I dont have any references to support my claims. Are there any independant, unbiased papers supporting your theory?

I can however reference some case studies for you to look at....

Floyd, A. and Mansmann, R. (2007) Equine Podiatry, pp 249-252

Wildenstein, M. (2006) Treating White Line Disease And seedy Toe, Corrective Farriery Volume 2 pp 441-445

Van Nassau, R., (2004) Hoof Problems, pp 191-196

Pollit, C., (1995) The Horses Foot, pp 117-118

Or you could pick a name at random from a list of farriers and equine vets and ask what they find works the best.

Oooo. I don't think one way works every time. Personally I have seen bad cases because they usually only get to a vet when they are bad, and IME a resection to a greater or lesser degree is necessary. It was be of a window type iwth a dremmel as brucea suggested; or a full wall resection up to 2/3rds of the way up the wall.

My experience has lead me to believe that feet will rarely become unstable subsequently as long as they are cared for properly. I have seen various remedies used topically either prior to or following resections, including iodine, sugardine (sugar and iodine mixes), epsom salts (magnesium suplhate) and formalin. All have pros and cons and I'm sure each person that has tried each one probably can say cases did get better and some did not and required more radical intervention.

I would not comment that every case needs a full resection of wall. But some do. The ones I have used this aggressive approach with did get better thank goodness. Pretty much everyone of these had had less aggressive treatment first and has not improved, hence resections being done.

What the OP describes is still a resection, albeit small. I have no doubt that this will be just fine for this horse's case.

I think everyone would do well to understand that there is usually not one cure fits all in this type of condition, and stop arguing the point as such. After all is it "my method treatment is best and works all the time" pride that is the point or getting the horse better the most efficient way.

Let's reduce the in house squabble, but continue the debate, suggestions and ideas for WLD cause and treatment.

Imogen

 

[tommy30]

Oooo. I don't think one way works every time. Personally I have seen bad cases because they usually only get to a vet when they are bad, and IME a resection to a greater or lesser degree is necessary. It was be of a window type iwth a dremmel as brucea suggested; or a full wall resection up to 2/3rds of the way up the wall.

My experience has lead me to believe that feet will rarely become unstable subsequently as long as they are cared for properly. I have seen various remedies used topically either prior to or following resections, including iodine, sugardine (sugar and iodine mixes), epsom salts (magnesium suplhate) and formalin. All have pros and cons and I'm sure each person that has tried each one probably can say cases did get better and some did not and required more radical intervention.

I would not comment that every case needs a full resection of wall. But some do. The ones I have used this aggressive approach with did get better thank goodness. Pretty much everyone of these had had less aggressive treatment first and has not improved, hence resections being done.

What the OP describes is still a resection, albeit small. I have no doubt that this will be just fine for this horse's case.

I think everyone would do well to understand that there is usually not one cure fits all in this type of condition, and stop arguing the point as such. After all is it "my method treatment is best and works all the time" pride that is the point or getting the horse better the most efficient way.

Let's reduce the in house squabble, but continue the debate, suggestions and ideas for WLD cause and treatment.

Imogen

Again, perhaps I wasnt clear in my post. By resection, I dont nessesarily mean a full blown DWR, although in some cases this may be required. All I mean is the removal of affected horn, back to healthy horn. More often than not, this will be a cm or two at most.

 

[amandap]

Do they suddenly just stop multiplying and invading healthy tissue?

I have a feeling that this is the nub of the debate. My belief is that in most cases pathogens are unable to take hold and invade healthy lamina. This in my head shifts the discussion of treatment away from purely treatment of the area affected to an holistic approach of trying to understand why the lamina may not be healthy in the first place and aiming to grow strong well connected healthy lamina.

Pete Ramey mentions on his DVD series that he has found with many of these aggressive treatments that they do work some of the time but none of them work all of the time...
I believe this amongst other oft used treatments being successful to varying degrees is what has led him to look to other ways of looking at and addressing these problems.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

Again, perhaps I wasnt clear in my post. By resection, I dont nessesarily mean a full blown DWR, although in some cases this may be required. All I mean is the removal of affected horn, back to healthy horn. More often than not, this will be a cm or two at most.

I quite agree with you

In 10 years of practice I've probably had no more than 15-20 cases requiring DWRs and most of these were for either laminitis, subsequent to injury or keratomas, a few for true WLD.

All have done well thank goodness (with respect to the DWR procdure).

Still - as you'd agree one sure does not fit all.

Imogen

 

[amandap]

This is a fascinating article! lol Surely if there are symptom and Xray proof of laminitis the WLD is actually a symptom NOT a cause!
http://www.equipodiatry.com/wldupdt.htm

 

[Spinal Tap]

No Im not a microbiologist, I'm a farrier. Perhaps I should of made that clear in my original post. I agree that if the environment is inhospitable they wont have a place to colonise, but how can you make an area of decaying horn an inhospitable environment for these fungi and bacteria? Do they suddenly just stop multiplying and invading healthy tissue? One way of making the environment less suitiable is to remove it all together, ie a resection. IME it works 100% of the time. If it didnt work I wouldnt do it. I have never had any negative consequences from doing it, although I have come across many areas of WLD that have previously been treated in not such an aggresive manner, and I cant off the top of my head think of a single one that has cleared up completely.

As for research, no I dont have any references to support my claims. Are there any independant, unbiased papers supporting your theory?

I can however reference some case studies for you to look at....

Floyd, A. and Mansmann, R. (2007) Equine Podiatry, pp 249-252

Wildenstein, M. (2006) Treating White Line Disease And seedy Toe, Corrective Farriery Volume 2 pp 441-445

Van Nassau, R., (2004) Hoof Problems, pp 191-196

Pollit, C., (1995) The Horses Foot, pp 117-118

Or you could pick a name at random from a list of farriers and equine vets and ask what they find works the best.

Here is an article that might be of interest

http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line_disease.htm#Whiteline

I'll look at those references if they are available online thank you (I've had a quick look and they don't seem to be), and what you say is your first hand experience and it's as valid as anybody else's. However can I repeat back your first post:

WLD needs to be exposed to get rid of it. Fact.

One thing I can't stand is a sweeping generalisation! You might find that 100% of the time a resection works, but that is not the same things as saying that 100% of the time it is necessary. As to how to make an area of decaying horn inhospitable - you can change the environment (e.g. by stopping the horse from standing in pee, which will change the pH), you can use various agents to try & kill the infection, you can support the horse's own immune system so it can do its job, you can address the cause of the white line separation because in my experience that is what compromises the hoof and enables the infection to take a hold in the first place. My analogy for this is not a very pleasant one, but if every case of human genital thrush were treatable only by resection and/or sustained exposure to fresh air there might be something of an outcry

 

[ImogenBurrows]

My analogy for this is not a very pleasant one, but if every case of human genital thrush were treatable only by resection and/or sustained exposure to fresh air there might be something of an outcry

- not necessarily pleasant but very good and made me smile!!!

 

[amandap]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aanhcp/143747122314812?ref=ts#!/album.php?aid=29387&id=143747122314812

Hope the link works properly as you can't delete posts on here. This is one Organization very keen on allowing the horse to heal itself with dietry and management help from us. Jaime Jackson's book 'Founder, prevention and cure' is often recommended and certainly questions the medical model.

 

[tommy30]

This is a fascinating article! lol Surely if there are symptom and Xray proof of laminitis the WLD is actually a symptom NOT a cause!
http://www.equipodiatry.com/wldupdt.htm

Thats an interesting article. I especially like the authors views on treatment of WLD.

 

[tommy30]

Here is an article that might be of interest

http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line_disease.htm#Whiteline

I'll look at those references if they are available online thank you (I've had a quick look and they don't seem to be), and what you say is your first hand experience and it's as valid as anybody else's. However can I repeat back your first post:



One thing I can't stand is a sweeping generalisation! You might find that 100% of the time a resection works, but that is not the same things as saying that 100% of the time it is necessary. As to how to make an area of decaying horn inhospitable - you can change the environment (e.g. by stopping the horse from standing in pee, which will change the pH), you can use various agents to try & kill the infection, you can support the horse's own immune system so it can do its job, you can address the cause of the white line separation because in my experience that is what compromises the hoof and enables the infection to take a hold in the first place. My analogy for this is not a very pleasant one, but if every case of human genital thrush were treatable only by resection and/or sustained exposure to fresh air there might be something of an outcry

Ok, forgive my generalisation. Im sure other methods of treatment work sometimes, but IME resecting works every time. I honestly dont understand why you wouldnt want to remove the affected area though? Guaranteed results, minimal effort, minimal complications...

 

[tommy30]

Here is an article that might be of interest

http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line_disease.htm#Whiteline

QUOTE]

Thanks. I haven't read it completely, but have skimmed past a few points. Off topic here, but I cant take anything seriously that comes from a guy who claims most domestic horses show a pain response from picking out their frog, or who advocates lowering the heels as far as possible (which would surely create a flat of negatively angled P3)

If you look at the hoof rehab home page, scroll half way down and study the xrays, you should notice some craftily and incorrectly placed visual markers, which I can only assume is done to trick the viewer into believing the horse was in a far worse state originally, and to buy his book/dvd.

 

[Spinal Tap]

We will have to agree to differ on the credibility of Mr Ramey! Lowering the heels allows concussion/stimulation to the heel area & ultimately a strong heel that can support the foot. My mare's trimmer took her heels down last year to my slight consternation because we'd just had a (shod) horse on the yard carted off for a lameness workup that identified a flat palmer angle & heel pain as the problem. However her foot has changed significantly, she has much wider & healthier frogs (apparently intractable low-level thrush has gone), her digital cushions feel stronger and she is motoring over stoney tracks barefoot without any suggestion of a problem. Just for interest - this was about 3 months after the heels were lowered, hard to spot (crap pic) you can just about see a bump on her hoof wall where the angle changed & the new growth above is a lot tighter

Here is the view from beneath

Compared to before (yes that is some white line separation you can see, I keep the walls rolled back and muzzle her now!)

Sorry for wondering o/t

 

[amandap]

We will have to agree to differ on the credibility of Mr Ramey!

Me too! lol He talks a lot of sense imo.
I posted the link to the other article to try and be non biased. lol.

 

[brucea]

WLD needs to be exposed to get rid of it. Fact. If that means resecting the dorsal wall then so be it. A farrier should do this, with or without a vets guidance depending upon the severity. Most vets I deal with wouldnt want to do it anyway, and respect my judgement enough to let me do it without assistance. Why would pain relief be needed?! Dead and decaying tissue is being removed. Its very very rare for a WLD resection to ever involve blood, and is therefore NOT a surgical procedure.

Mr Darcy, how many feet with large aread of WLD have you 'cured' by adjusting the diet alone? Not any is my bet. I wish unqualified people would stop dishing out advise/information that is wrong.

This is, I think, the root of the problem and the debate.

You can certainly remove the immediate problem of having WLD in a stretched WL, and clear up the symptomatic issue - and if you're lucky, you'll have cleared off the area of the hoof that is compromised.

However the other side of the coin is the simple question "why was it stretched and compromised in the first place?". Treating the symptoms is fine, and may be essential in some cases - but unless the underlying cause of the compromised WL is addressed, it will continue to be stretched and open to opportunistic bacterial attack.

"addressed" may not be the correct word - I meant the cause understood and actions taken to mitigate the risk of a recurrence.

 

[tommy30]

This is, I think, the root of the problem and the debate.

You can certainly remove the immediate problem of having WLD in a stretched WL, and clear up the symptomatic issue - and if you're lucky, you'll have cleared off the area of the hoof that is compromised.

However the other side of the coin is the simple question "why was it stretched and compromised in the first place?". Treating the symptoms is fine, and may be essential in some cases - but unless the underlying cause of the compromised WL is addressed, it will continue to be stretched and open to opportunistic bacterial attack.

"addressed" may not be the correct word - I meant the cause understood and actions taken to mitigate the risk of a recurrence.

Your quite right. Any attempt to treat it will ultimately be futile if the cause is not removed. IME it is most often caused by long toes and associated mechanical leverage, or a tiny piece of gravel penetrating the white line and slowly working its way up. Laminitis is obviously a major cause, but thankfully I dont see too much of that.

 

[brucea]

So why is the horse growing a long toe in the first place - what underlying cause?

Would a long toe cause separation in an otherwise healthy hoof at the far quarters and heels?

Is the long toe a secondary problem? The primary problem being separation. Healthy laminae would be very hard to lever unless it is in exceptional circumstances.

A healthy untrimmed hoof will grow a long wall but in most cases splinter off...so why would the horse grow a long toe? It's expensive in terms of effort to move with long toes, it delays breakover, not an advantage.

I hate to bring everything back to the L word - but it depends on your perception of where that L word starts - and just how wide that spectrum is.

A stretched white line indicates a compromised laminar attachment - that can only mean one thing - something is causing that compromised attachment.

Now when I or my friends have had problems wiht stretched white lines we have found restricting grass and managing diet and environment is the way to go - a few weeks oir monthsd later no stretched white line. It may not be the underlying cause, but if I were a hoofcare porofessional (I gave up training because of work travel committments) I would be advising any owner of a horse with stretched white lines to get them off the grass for a while.

 

[Patches]

his opinion is that his hock spavins are starting to cause problems again as he is taking his back toes off more than usual and this trauma could attribute towards the seedy toe. (hock spavins being injected in dec)

My mare has worn her hind toes flat, to the white line in some instances, in the five years I have owned her. She is shod all round with her back shoes "set" between the quarter clips (like a roll on a front shoe). She has NEVER had WLD and the flat area of her toe is rounded off with every shoeing, such is the rate her feet grow...and she's shod every four weeks due to the wear on the shoes.

She also has hock spavins and the farrier attributes the wear to the OUTSIDE of her shoes to the spavin, hence why she is shod with lateral extensions, not the wear at the toe.

Here's a picture to demonstrate the wear she causes to her hind feet.

Her shoes at shoeing time...

Also a picture of her recently shod (although not a recent pic if that makes sense) to show the foot is a more normal shape post shoeing.

I also bought a new mare in April who had feet like this...

The long toes on her should, by reading this, have made her a prime candidate for WLD and yet she hasn't had it. Her feet are now a normal shape (albeit a little upright)

 

[amandap]

Heres' a link to Dartmoor ponies, just for interest. http://www.tribeequus.com/dartmoor.html

All the five ponies my sister has taken on from various local farmers had these flat splayed hooves (no cracks or chips), they were splayed at the quarters as well too so were round. Two of them had their frogs eaten away and the pink corium was exposed but not one had WLD. They had been on boggy poor grass areas 24/7 with minimal silage in winter. Only one of the ponies feet has changed shape dramatically to a more upright foot the other four remain splayed to varying degrees. They now live on a hard track with homegrown haylage some 'imported' hay and grass some of the time.