Seemingly unpredictable aggression in my dogs

D

dappyness

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 October 2010
Messages
270
Location
Devon
Visit site
If anyone has any experience - good ending stories, please tell

I have two male whippets:
Tortoise is 9 who is entire and Alfie is 7 and castrated. He was re-homed to me when he was one.

Last night Alfie snapped, and for a few seconds he full on attacked Tortoise which left him with 20 stitches on his front elbow joint. The skin was completely torn and its touch and go if there is any damage done to the joint. The attack lasted only a few seconds and straight after Alfie took himself to my bedroom and kept his distance. He has been very quiet and quite distant since. There is no animosity between them and they are fine with each other.

Now if this was a one off I would put it down to experience. But this has happened a few times before, each time gets worse. The last time was 6 months ago where Tortoise was left with staples on his flank and the time before, and before that, he had puncture wounds.

They have both become more of a problem out walking and have become lead aggressive with certain breeds of dogs, mainly the ones that they both have been attacked by.

The thing is... I dont want to re-home Alfie but at the same time I cant cope with Tortoise being hurt.

The question is, once these attacks happen, will they always happen? Triggers vary so not easy to predict. I'm looking for behaviourists in Devon.

Any positive stories?
 
Sorry to hear that your dogs are having problems.

Didn't want to read and run but can only offer a few suggestions.

Perhaps you could tell us under what circumstances the most recent attack took place? Was there food? which dog approached which?

Is it possible that your older dog is showing signs of slowing and the younger dog feels that he needs to challenge for top spot?

I think you are going to need to get an experienced trainer involved if you have not already done so.
 
My two bitch whippets lived fairly amicably together for many years (other than fighting over food, which I was able to easily manage) until the elder one started showing her age - whereupon the younger one started attacking her :( I had to keep them separate at all times when I wasn't with them from then on unfortunately :(
 
I don't have a happy ending, sorry. In your shoes, I would ask the vet to investigate Alfie for neurological/brain related issues, including but not limited to epilepsy. Mostly because you mention him seeming quiet and distant since the last incident. Fingers crossed that it's something less than that.
 
I would get the older one a vet check. Maybe he's in pain somewhere and that's making him irritable.
Unless the trigger is something like food, toys or attention from you it's hard to say.
Maybe the fact that the older one is not castrated may be a factor too.
If the vet check is clear a good behaviours would be a good option but make sure it is a good one that uses modern positive methods.
 
Thank you for all your suggestions. Every single one is food for thought.

They have quite a funny relationship. Alfie (the youngest and attacker) is quite unsure around other dogs and I use the treat distraction when walking out on the lead. He is much better when off the lead as every time he has been attacked by strange dogs he has been on the lead. Where as Tortoise (the older, entire, victim) is much more aggressive and will have a go at anything if it looks dominate.

Alfie is definitely top dog of Tortoise both in and out of the house. Tortoise can be quite weary of Alf and will avoid certain situations.

I did see Sean Ellis (The Wolf Man) last year for a 5 hr consultation to look at the pack behaviour between them. Learnt a lot from that but now need assistance in managing them.
 
Have you asked your vet to refer you to a behaviourist? A reputable behaviourist is unlikely to offer advice without seeing them interact because it is all too easy to make matters worse if you don't fully understand the nature of their relationship. I don't know Sean Ellis but the APBC members are properly trained and accredited.
Crate training and castration are two options but as above, they may not be appropriate with the dynamics of the two of them.
 
JillA said:
Have you asked your vet to refer you to a behaviourist? A reputable behaviourist is unlikely to offer advice without seeing them interact because it is all too easy to make matters worse if you don't fully understand the nature of their relationship. I don't know Sean Ellis but the APBC members are properly trained and accredited.
Crate training and castration are two options but as above, they may not be appropriate with the dynamics of the two of them.
Click to expand...

I have been advised about one behaviourist from my vet but as with any professional lots of people have different opinions about them. Its a total minefield out there.

Sean Ellis spent a fair bit of time with the boys and I'm trying to get hold of him again as he was very adept with the boys personality and described them to a tee with just a small bit of info. He is the man who studied wild wolf packs and lived / studied a pack for a few years. He doesnt believe in dominance but pack ranking.

I did ask my vet this morning about castration and he said that if Tortoise needs further surgery on his leg he will whip his coconuts off at the same time to limit the number of sedation's he has.
 
I know a lady who had a similar problem. The older dog attacked one of the others. Initially only on rare occasions, but then more frequently.
The last time he ripped the whippets throat open - literally. He was pts the same day.
The whippet went on to recover but it took a lot of surgeries and time.
 
Britestar said:
I know a lady who had a similar problem. The older dog attacked one of the others. Initially only on rare occasions, but then more frequently.
The last time he ripped the whippets throat open - literally. He was pts the same day.
The whippet went on to recover but it took a lot of surgeries and time.
Click to expand...

oh...........

I have an appointment booked on Wednesday to see a behaviourist..... Fingers crossed
 
I only know one person who has had multiple whippets and she spent a lot of the time at the vets. They really seem to get very personal about falling outs. I hope you can find a solution but I suspect they can no longer be kept together.
 
I'd have them both checked as the aggressor may be detecting a 'weakness' in the victim. I would not ever leave them together unattended.
If the aggressor keeps getting what he wants out of it with no consequences for him, he will keep doing it.
We have had dogs who have fought badly, a father and son, we rehomed the son locally and two females, the younger kept attacking the oldie. We sent the younger one back to her breeder for a few months as the oldie was on her last legs and it wasn't fair on her.
 
PS are you sure there's no trigger? Food or resource/your attention/one or the other being on a raised surface/attacks happening in narrow spaces or near doorways/entry and exit points?
 
Thank you to all your replies.

I'm really having a good think about the future. Since my last post I have book the younger one in for a health check and awaiting a visit from a behaviourist. I have narrowed the attacks down to chews and my attention. I am hoping a few changes in my behaviour and consistent work will help. I have discussed with the vet that if Tortoise needs more work done on his leg to whip off his coconuts.
I am hoping that being more careful may stop these attacks - There have only been 3 in the last 2 years but each time ends in a few stitches. If you look at them now they are lying next to each other grooming. Tortoise chooses to sit next to Alfie and is not frightened of him at all.

ARGH!!! it's so hard!
 
I don't actually think castrating the older dog will make any difference - it is the younger dog who is the problem, and now you've said that about chews I suspect that is your problem. My two whippet bitches fought viciously about food - once - then I made damn sure they never had the chance again, I would stop giving them chews at all personally

ETA - fights will usually end in stitches with whippets and greyhounds as they are so thin skinned, it is an occupational hazard of owning them :)
 
Attacks are never unprovoked amongst dogs, you have identified some possible triggers which is a good first step. Now you need to remove the triggers that you can, so remove chews. Then control situations you can't remove, so be more aware when giving attention or when the dogs are excited.
I would suggest separating the dogs when they are likely to get excited and when they are settled open whatever separates them- they must be completely settled when you remove what separates them though or you just trigger problems.
What do you feed the dogs and how much exercise do they get?
I can't see that castration will help, I would also suggest that you work on the issues they have with other dogs in order that a calm but controlled response is what the dogs get when energy is high.
How do you deal with the situation when the attack happens?
 
twiggy2 said:
Attacks are never unprovoked amongst dogs, you have identified some possible triggers which is a good first step. Now you need to remove the triggers that you can, so remove chews. Then control situations you can't remove, so be more aware when giving attention or when the dogs are excited.
I would suggest separating the dogs when they are likely to get excited and when they are settled open whatever separates them- they must be completely settled when you remove what separates them though or you just trigger problems.
What do you feed the dogs and how much exercise do they get?
I can't see that castration will help, I would also suggest that you work on the issues they have with other dogs in order that a calm but controlled response is what the dogs get when energy is high.
How do you deal with the situation when the attack happens?
Click to expand...

Thanks again everyone.

Both dogs are fed on Arden grange - tried raw food when the younger one arrived but he wolfed it down without chewing and tried to take the other ones food. Dry food has never caused problems since at meal times and they actually graze so there is always food in the kitchen. Dry food isnt a high value treat to them.
They get 20 mins of exercise in the morning (they hate walking in the morning and run home to hide under the duvet) and then get over an hour in the evening. I use the local farmers field for off lead walks when the fields are dry and then lane walks to help keep their nails down a bit. Around the very quiet lanes Alfie will be off lead in case we meet another dog as he chooses whether he wants to meet it or not and Tortoise is on an extendable lead (used very responsibly).

When attacks happen I often shout / scream loudly to re-direct them. I did put my arm between them this time (dont regret getting bitten as it stopped the fight - no puncture wound!) It always over in seconds with Tortoise screaming which obviously upsets me. I send alfie out of the room and leave him there until I calm down and can assess Tortoise. Alfie will always show signs that he needs reassurance such as licking lips, blinking eyes and lowering his head to me straight after. He keeps a respectful distance and behaves like he has been told of. He is actually a very sensitive boy - if I come home to the bin upturned, just a sigh from me is enough for him to stop greeting me excitedly and take himself to bed with his head low. Straight after the fight there is no animosity between the boys and when I brought Tortoise home the other night they both sniffed and licked each other. Tortoise is quite rightly careful around Alfie for a few weeks such as avoiding Alf if he is lying down but the fight seems forgotten. This is why I'm hoping I can do something. If they were constantly growling and snapping at each other it wouldn't be a hard decision to make but they're not. 3 fights in two years isnt much its just the damage thats being done.

With the issue of walking I have to keep Tortoise on the lead and his recall goes out of the window at times. When both off the lead they act like pack dogs and will chase /circle small dogs, they will also go into hunting mode. Alf has to stay of the lead as they both have been quite badly attacked when on the lead and he doesnt appear to trust me to let him go when he wants to. This I assume has caused the lead aggression I tend to have. I have started over come this by reassuring Alfie when other dogs appear - I give him treats to take his focus away from the dog and his calmness does seem to reduce Tortoises aggression. I tend to take them away from situations where there are black labs (been attacked by 4 different ones) and spaniels ( they dont like their movement or being rushed upon by them) and just praise them lots when a meet has been successful. I will admit that This practice is quite sporadic as I live in the sicks and can walk miles without seeing another sole. Winter times are also rubbish as I dont walk anywhere we can meet dogs in the dark in case I dont see them coming. I'm new to the area so i'm looking for places to walk and meet nice, calm dogs for successful meetings. Oh, problems increase when dogs are walked towards us. I'm considering getting a yellow 'I need space' coat but I want the interaction rather than avoidance of other dogs. .

I'm on the case as Ive been scared, I dont want to loose any dog.
 
A very knowledgeable friend of mine told me that whippets have Staffy in them from back in the day. This was in response to my exclaiming about the aggression some whippets were showing to each other at a show she was judging at. My Patterdale dogs used to have scraps like this as well. Poor George would always end up with a hole in him but Jimmy would then lick him and they would be perfectly friendly with no animosity between them at all.
 
yhanni said:
A very knowledgeable friend of mine told me that whippets have Staffy in them from back in the day. This was in response to my exclaiming about the aggression some whippets were showing to each other at a show she was judging at. My Patterdale dogs used to have scraps like this as well. Poor George would always end up with a hole in him but Jimmy would then lick him and they would be perfectly friendly with no animosity between them at all.
Click to expand...

I actively seek out dogs with some staff in them as they are such friendly gregarious dogs with happy dispositions and natures.
What would it matter if these dogs did have staff in them?
 
Op would you be able to try interactive feeding?
Have the dogs in separate ares of the house and put food around for the dog to find, soak food and stuff it in a Kong with something really tasty to encourage them to eat it obviously separation and making sure it has all gone before they are together are really important.
I would not leave food down as it may contribute to friction even if it does not appear to, it is also a missed opportunity to mentally stimulate the dogs.
What your feeding is a good food though.
I would teach the dogs to search and track especially if one is one lead all/ most of the time.
And hour and 20 mins per day is not much exercise if on lead, but I understand why on lead is needed. I would look for a few fenced fields I could use so the dog is off lead at least a few times per week, I would spread/throw food over the field for him to search and find/teach him to track/ search find and retrieve a toy.
Remember that you shouting at screaming at the time of an attack will increase stress/energy levels for all of you if it happens again do you think it would work if you were to walk through thwm and then remove the aggressor?
Three attacks in 2 years is a lot and I would separate the dogs when I am not there and have a short house line and muzzle on the one that attacks when I am- if you condition the muzzle correctly the dog will not be stressed by it.
The body language your dog is showing after are all indicators of stress which does not always equal needing reassurance often it is dealing with a physical stress and a surge of adrenalin can take a week or do to leave the dogs body so further incidents are more likely in this time and those signs often mean a dog needs space.
Often when dogs are close physicalyy signs are missed that one wants the closeness and the other is unable to avoid it fir various reasons- I hope a good trainer/ behaviourist can help.
 
Last edited:
twiggy2 said:
Op would you be able to try interactive feeding?
Have the dogs in separate ares of the house and put food around for the dog to find, soak food and stuff it in a Kong with something really tasty to encourage them to eat it obviously separation and making sure it has all gone before they are together are really important.
I would not leave food down as it may contribute to friction even if it does not appear to, it is also a missed opportunity to mentally stimulate the dogs.
What your feeding is a good food though.
I would teach the dogs to search and track especially if one is one lead all/ most of the time.
And hour and 20 mins per day is not much exercise if on lead, but I understand why on lead is needed. I would look for a few fenced fields I could use so the dog is off lead at least a few times per week, I would spread/throw food over the field for him to search and find/teach him to track/ search find and retrieve a toy.
Remember that you shouting at screaming at the time of an attack will increase stress/energy levels for all of you if it happens again do you think it would work if you were to walk through thwm and then remove the aggressor?
Three attacks in 2 years is a lot and I would separate the dogs when I am not there and have a short house line and muzzle on the one that attacks when I am- if you condition the muzzle correctly the dog will not be stressed by it.
The body language your dog is showing after are all indicators of stress which does not always equal needing reassurance often it is dealing with a physical stress and a surge of adrenalin can take a week or do to leave the dogs body so further incidents are more likely in this time and those signs often mean a dog needs space.
Often when dogs are close physicalyy signs are missed that one wants the closeness and the other is unable to avoid it fir various reasons- I hope a good trainer/ behaviourist can help.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this
I am so thankful that there are so many people on here to offer some great advice.

I will look at buying alternative feeding solutions tomorrow.

Understand now with the stress signals - it all adds up.

Tortoise will come off the lead in closed fields, just dont rust him enough to come back no matter how much recall training he has had - cant let him near any cats / sheep or rabbits. Better safe than sorry!
 
OP i think you have some wires crossed with what body language your dogs give. Lip licking and lookng guilty are not signs the dog is looking to suck back up to you, its stress and in this case im betting its because the dog doesn't understand why you are treating the one whos been attacked like a baby and being cruel to the other one - the dog is looking to up his rank so he is not feeling so "low" in the pack. All dogs want is fair treatment from the one who feeds them (you) so treating one differntly will cause tension. I have a staffy and a lurcher/lab and staff will get aggressive if the other gets more attention because she thinks he is being favored, so higher ranking than her. If she gets that way, i tell them BOTH to go away and it all settles. All dogs want is equality lol
 
equi said:
OP i think you have some wires crossed with what body language your dogs give. Lip licking and lookng guilty are not signs the dog is looking to suck back up to you, its stress and in this case im betting its because the dog doesn't understand why you are treating the one whos been attacked like a baby and being cruel to the other one - the dog is looking to up his rank so he is not feeling so "low" in the pack. All dogs want is fair treatment from the one who feeds them (you) so treating one differntly will cause tension. I have a staffy and a lurcher/lab and staff will get aggressive if the other gets more attention because she thinks he is being favored, so higher ranking than her. If she gets that way, i tell them BOTH to go away and it all settles. All dogs want is equality lol
Click to expand...

New research is backing up the theory that it is not about ranking amongst dogs but each dogs individual need to guard what is to them a valuable resource.
This is supported by the fact some dogs can life together with no issues as long a certain situations or items are not involved, so dogs that will fight over a tennis ball but share food for example are nit wanting high ranking they just want the tennis ball. Same with sofas, food, going through doors etc- there are very few dogs that want to be in charge in fact most behaviour problems are caused when dogs feel the have to be.
 
s4sugar said:
Possibly "the last time was six months ago" may be a clue to a bitch in season in the area?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't disregard this comment. It's quite possible that the dog who is neutered is getting right royally fed up with the antics of the one who isn't neutered especially if there's a bitch nearby.
 
Fellewell said:
I wouldn't disregard this comment. It's quite possible that the dog who is neutered is getting right royally fed up with the antics of the one who isn't neutered especially if there's a bitch nearby.
Click to expand...

Unless I am missing something Tortoise (entire dog) has never had any interest in bitches in season. He has had bitches in season run up to him whilst he was on a lead and given them no notice at all. He has never humped a thing, not even a teddy a cushion or a leg. He actively walked away from a bitch who was in season that was on the other side of a fence. If he had ever shown any interest in humping or I was at risk of him running away to find a bitch he would have had is coconuts whipped of a long time ago.

Could it be affecting the neutered one? He humps boy dogs....

Also.. I have discovered I'm the high value treat. I never really noticed (didnt think much of it)that I cant give affection to one without the other digging into me for my affection. Alfie will block tortoise if he comes up for attention in a high excited state. I think that was the flash point last week.

Every single post has helped me put the pieces together - Awaiting for a new appointment for the behaviourist as Tortoise has had his stitches re-done as the gap the vet left for drainage got bigger.. - All closed up properly now so need a little time for healing.

Im putting my self in the dog house for not seeing this earlier.
 
dappyness said:
Unless I am missing something Tortoise (entire dog) has never had any interest in bitches in season. He has had bitches in season run up to him whilst he was on a lead and given them no notice at all. He has never humped a thing, not even a teddy a cushion or a leg. He actively walked away from a bitch who was in season that was on the other side of a fence. If he had ever shown any interest in humping or I was at risk of him running away to find a bitch he would have had is coconuts whipped of a long time ago.

Could it be affecting the neutered one? He humps boy dogs....

Also.. I have discovered I'm the high value treat. I never really noticed (didnt think much of it)that I cant give affection to one without the other digging into me for my affection. Alfie will block tortoise if he comes up for attention in a high excited state. I think that was the flash point last week.

Every single post has helped me put the pieces together - Awaiting for a new appointment for the behaviourist as Tortoise has had his stitches re-done as the gap the vet left for drainage got bigger.. - All closed up properly now so need a little time for healing.

Im putting my self in the dog house for not seeing this earlier.
Click to expand...


You are right of course; neutering will only effect the balance if there is a sexual element. It won't stop aggression of there is a behavioural element to it.

I would imagine that your neutered dog is displaying mounting behaviour as an outlet for stress or conflict.

You said your behaviourist was very accurate in his assessment. What did he think was going on between the three of you?
 
JillA said:
Have you asked your vet to refer you to a behaviourist? A reputable behaviourist is unlikely to offer advice without seeing them interact because it is all too easy to make matters worse if you don't fully understand the nature of their relationship. I don't know Sean Ellis but the APBC members are properly trained and accredited.
Crate training and castration are two options but as above, they may not be appropriate with the dynamics of the two of them.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. In cases of aggression, I really think you need someone qualified in dog behaviour to assess the two dogs in their home. My advice would be to have both dogs checked by the vet and then ask your vet to refer you to a qualified behaviourist. Good luck. It must be very stressful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top