Self trimming, rockley farm, supported by my vet

[thatsmygirl]

My lad has intermittent lameness, usually more pronounced on soft ground and struggles with tight turns.
Have wondered if removing his shoes may help him?

No harm in trying, its saved many a horse but I would suggest doing plenty of research first, . How a hoof should land, big look into diet, thrush treatments, rehab eg walking on roads building up slowly. There is so much to it when you start to look into it but plenty of pics, its amazing how they change and so quickly.

 

[tallyho!]

It's really quite simple...

"One major missing piece in the puzzle at the moment is scientific evidence.


Many people who have seen the benefits of 'self-trimming' with their own eyes will struggle to appreciate why anecdotal evidence is not acceptable to scientifically minded people.

(People who accept barefoot/self-trimming/unshod as ideal, like owners, trimmers etc. can't believe vets and other scientists don't see what they're missing)


For those that want to understand [why scientifically minded people don't accept anecdotes] better I can recommend 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre which explains the scientific method and interpretation of evidence very well.

For others, I'd suggest that far from being obstructive, those that insist on scientific evidence are the most likely to sweep away the old dogma and bring about the paradigm shift that we would all like to see.

(Once the evidence is THERE, the scientifically minded people, will be the ones falling over like dominoes to get the shoes off)


So, basically, for scientifically minded people like me, we need hard stats to convince us that barefoot works. It's not enough just to see it with our own two eyes. We must read a number of carefully hypothesised and peer reviewed articles, stare at enough graphs, pore over the methodology and baseline characteristics of each one, check if the placebo was a true placebo and then once we are happy that there is a statistically significant difference in favour of self-trimming using a widely accepted blobbogram... only THEN will we believe our own two eyes.

Well, frankly because, we don't trust our eyes. Never have.

Whilst I understand this logic for something that could potentially kill you, like paracetamol, I struggle to see the need for such extravagance concerning taking pieces of metal, off a horses hoof to see if said hoof still works.

 

[stencilface]

I give up when I'm talking to people tbh, I go round in so many circles, and get flustered when they just keep coming back to the same point, even when I have waved my copy of Nic's book in front of their face - which they can't be bothered to read. Comments like 'do you really think its the best decision to do the barefoot now that he's sound in eggbars' Not helpful. People who go on that competition horses that need studs would never be able to do it. Just thinking about the jarring that goes on with studs makes me shudder to think, and I barely used them when I used to compete - once I used them and he managed to stud himself whilst standing still, when he only had studs in the outside! Comment on the post on the blog about playing sports in sticky shoes is exactly the same thing I thing, my OH has gone over many times on his ankles whilst playing squash.

I just hope and pray that I have a sound working horse in 12 weeks, I'm 11 weeks into rehab now and I'm fed up! Plus he's pulled the same shoe off twice, so not a long term thing, on a horse that used to rarely lose shoes.

My worst dread is getting a new trimmer when he comes back from Rockley, I'm not sure I could talk enough to my farrier to get him to do the right thing, although I will hopefully be a lot more educated at the end of his rehab!

I don't think I'll have another horse after my current one.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Fwiw many barefoot advocates I know are scientists, me included. Many vets do not think scientifically and when they come into research they take a lot of ribbing for it
It's just going to take time and for more owners to advocate for their horses-this is complicated by insurance policies but they will catch up eventually. Barefoot has come a long way in the last few years and more and more people are taking on board the need for movement and the right feed/forage.

 

[stencilface]

Ditto MoC the more you think about it, the more it makes sense, in many cases at least. I have greater success explaining to engineers than I do to horsey people!

 

[EB83]

No harm in trying, its saved many a horse but I would suggest doing plenty of research first, . How a hoof should land, big look into diet, thrush treatments, rehab eg walking on roads building up slowly. There is so much to it when you start to look into it but plenty of pics, its amazing how they change and so quickly.

That does worry me a little bit, he's got cushings and we've only just managed to get his levels to normal so do worry about thrush etc as feel he'll be more susceptible and longer to heal.

 

[SusieT]

Bearing in mind Rockley is a barefoot site so likely to post positive barefoot stories and opinions - as he rightly points out it could do with science - nothing stopping him and other vets in practice making a study of problems seen and associated shoeing/not shoeing etc. and eventually correlations could start to be drawn.

 

[EmmasMummy]

When I got my cob back in 2004 he was shod, but then he was a but off so took them off. For 7 months we could not get a farrier as we were not on a yard. My field was a mixture of hard standing rocks, on a hill and drained well. We did little schooling in the field and hacked out lots. When I moved out my parents and horse went to a yard we finally got a farrier who looked at his feet, did a couple strokes on the outside edge for balance he said and that was it...in 7 months. His feet also expanded up 3 shoe sizes!

He was only ever shod once after that and it resulted in an abscess that was not visible until he had his shoes off again. He only had a trim every 4 months. Had brilliant feet.

 

[paddy555]

I give up when I'm talking to people tbh, I go round in so many circles, and get flustered when they just keep coming back to the same point, even when I have waved my copy of Nic's book in front of their face - which they can't be bothered to read. Comments like 'do you really think its the best decision to do the barefoot now that he's sound in eggbars' Not helpful. People who go on that competition horses that need studs would never be able to do it. Just thinking about the jarring that goes on with studs makes me shudder to think, and I barely used them when I used to compete - once I used them and he managed to stud himself whilst standing still, when he only had studs in the outside! Comment on the post on the blog about playing sports in sticky shoes is exactly the same thing I thing, my OH has gone over many times on his ankles whilst playing squash.

I just hope and pray that I have a sound working horse in 12 weeks, I'm 11 weeks into rehab now and I'm fed up! Plus he's pulled the same shoe off twice, so not a long term thing, on a horse that used to rarely lose shoes.

My worst dread is getting a new trimmer when he comes back from Rockley, I'm not sure I could talk enough to my farrier to get him to do the right thing, although I will hopefully be a lot more educated at the end of his rehab!

I don't think I'll have another horse after my current one.

As far as the trimming goes why can't you do it yourself? You don't have to learn how to trim every horse just yours. Feet fall into pretty specific types. Once you have been shown which yours are it will be easy.If you do it very regularly it is very little work and easy to maintain.

 

[stencilface]

As far as the trimming goes why can't you do it yourself? You don't have to learn how to trim every horse just yours. Feet fall into pretty specific types. Once you have been shown which yours are it will be easy.If you do it very regularly it is very little work and easy to maintain.

I bought a riders rasp to take off rough chips, just smooth them. When I explained to my farrier about this and the fact it looked a bit like a cheese grater he stated that I should keep it for grating cheese and stay away from my horses feet. Helpful.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Bearing in mind Rockley is a barefoot site so likely to post positive barefoot stories and opinions - as he rightly points out it could do with science - nothing stopping him and other vets in practice making a study of problems seen and associated shoeing/not shoeing etc. and eventually correlations could start to be drawn.

Rockley is a rehab facility. They post the pic of the horse in shoes as soon as it arrives then they post regular updates of the horse while its there and also usually once it's gone home, sometimes years down the line.

They have no way of knowing if the horse will have a positive outcome when they post the pics of them in shoes.

 

[FfionWinnie]

As far as the trimming goes why can't you do it yourself? You don't have to learn how to trim every horse just yours. Feet fall into pretty specific types. Once you have been shown which yours are it will be easy.If you do it very regularly it is very little work and easy to maintain.

Totally agree. I trim all 6 of mine - well actually they trim themselves, it's rare I need to pick up a rasp and if I do, it's minuscule and takes seconds. Self trimming is definitely the optimum.

This foot hasn't been touched for a year when the shoes and an inch of over grown hoof was removed by the farrier, a few days after purchase.

 

[ycbm]

Bearing in mind Rockley is a barefoot site so likely to post positive barefoot stories and opinions - as he rightly points out it could do with science - nothing stopping him and other vets in practice making a study of problems seen and associated shoeing/not shoeing etc. and eventually correlations could start to be drawn.

You do write some nonsense sometimes SusieT

You can't possibly have ever looked properly at the site to have written this.

As Ffion Winnie has pointed out, the horses are blogged on arrival, before the outcome is known. Follow up data is also published. The numbers are building, and gobsmackingly better than conventional treatment. And let's not forget that most of these horses have already been through conventional treatment and it hasn't worked.

No there's nothing to stop any research being done except who's going to pay for it. Individual vet practices don't make that kind of money.

I don't blame individual farriers and vets, but it beggars belief that the FRC and BVA aren't beating a path to Nic's door to find out how the hell she's doing it when they can't.

 

[Arzada]

I bought a riders rasp to take off rough chips, just smooth them. When I explained to my farrier about this and the fact it looked a bit like a cheese grater he stated that I should keep it for grating cheese and stay away from my horses feet. Helpful.

Yes - he could have told you to get a proper rasp, maybe some gloves because rasps are like a lot of little sharp blades and said that the principle of maintaining your horse's hooves is very similar to using a file on your nails. Maybe he hasn't experience of self trimming and minimal hoof maintenance and if so he isn't the person to help you.

 

[ycbm]

As far as the trimming goes why can't you do it yourself? You don't have to learn how to trim every horse just yours. Feet fall into pretty specific types. Once you have been shown which yours are it will be easy.If you do it very regularly it is very little work and easy to maintain.

Agree. I'm another doing my own, though I rarely do anything but the odd chip now. If they start looking a bit too high, I go for a good road hack. It can be a bit more difficult, especially in winter, for people who work or have no good roads, but it's still not rocket science.

 

[Kezzabell2]

for those that a considering doing this, here is a link to a pic of my horses hooves! He's not seen a farrier for 4 months and has been doing a fair amount of road work His nail holes have finally grown out and I can't believe how good the hooves are looking still! i thought they'd be in a much worst state! they hardly cracked at all and have not had any little bits chipping away at the edges!
https://www.facebook.com/?_rdr=p#!/...4274183307998/934274089974674/?type=3&theater

we have very stoney tracks, so he quickily got used to those surfaces and I've not booted him once since removing his shoes!

in shoes he was also landing toe first, within a few days it was more flat and now its defo heel first _ i remember saying to the vet, that I couldn't describe it but when he walked on the road, in shoes, it just felt weird! now it feels totally normal, if not a bit quiet

 

[FfionWinnie]

You can see the change in angle of his feet already op and also the old growth appears to be bullnosed but the new isn't.

Once his feet really harden up they will be almost as noisy as shod feet.

 

[soloequestrian]

Fwiw many barefoot advocates I know are scientists, me included. Many vets do not think scientifically and when they come into research they take a lot of ribbing for it

Slightly off the main topic, but when a vet was treating my old boy for an impactive colic a few months ago, I asked her if there was any evidence that tubing him with liquid paraffin was any more effective than just water or no tube at all and just painkillers. She looked at me as if I was mad..... there was no answer.
It would be interesting to know how many people who 'demand scientific evidence for the efficacy of barefoot' are actually scientists - I think a lot of medicine proceeds on case studies because of money/numbers issues and when you get as many positive case studies as there are now for barefoot, it starts to become more than just anecdote. I've also got to the point where the idea of nailing a bit of metal to my pet seems weird at best, and that's dealing with horses who were never lame in shoes in the first place.

 

[stencilface]

It would be interesting to know how many people who 'demand scientific evidence for the efficacy of barefoot' are actually scientists

when you get as many positive case studies as there are now for barefoot, it starts to become more than just anecdote.

I've also got to the point where the idea of nailing a bit of metal to my pet seems weird at best, and that's dealing with horses who were never lame in shoes in the first place.

The last two points especially I think. There must come a point of critical mass when you can no longer ignore the success stories, and learn from the ones that didn't work.

I hated riding my boy in shoes after he had been without for two years - I felt like he would slip at any moment, also, most of them flinch a bit when the nails are banged in, mine certainly does - now as I watch his eggbars being put on (they'll be off in two weeks!) I winch as they're nailed on

 

[MotherOfChickens]

When you start to consider what vets base treatment on (I am not vet bashing, I don't know what the answer is as the infrastructure just isn't there) it becomes a bit more enlightening.

Examples: IRAP treatment and melanoma treatment-two I have direct experience of. IRAP treatment certainly seemed to help my horse and as a therapy its certainly worth a try. He was treated at a vet school hospital (ie one that should be collating treatment data) and there was zero interest in any follow up other than the 6 month one when they watched him trot a straight line on the yard and sent him home saying it was what they expected. No interest in doing a later follow up after alot of rehab. Incidentally although he wasn't shod until he was 5 and had shoe breaks yearly, it wasn't until he went through this lameness, box rest etc that I began to appreciate just how quickly the hoof remodels and adapts.

Melanoma treatment-your vet is likely to recommend a treatment based on one published US study (in the 90s) that had a 50% 'success' rate that noone has ever managed to replicate. The drug is not licensed for horses here and costs a fortune. They then might try some chemotherapy with little evidence that it works in horses at all.

The science for much of these treatments just isnt there, the knowledge on equine physiology is lacking-the money just isn't there for the research. Much is extrapolated from other species and vets are under pressure to get results often in an unrealistic time frame (the double edged sword that is insurance).

 

[ester]

Fwiw many barefoot advocates I know are scientists, me included. Many vets do not think scientifically and when they come into research they take a lot of ribbing for it
It's just going to take time and for more owners to advocate for their horses-this is complicated by insurance policies but they will catch up eventually. Barefoot has come a long way in the last few years and more and more people are taking on board the need for movement and the right feed/forage.

Absolutely all round! We're also probably the ones that would love more scientific evidence behind it/be able to research the 'best' way to do it, and those bloomin minerals! But it isn't there, it is undeniable there is a fair amount of sense and logic involved and the fact that the feet can start to look entirely different, so I continue with n=1.
I am also keen to mention to my vet on occasion how sound he still is (but I also tell him how he hasn't had any carcinoma recurrence either not just the feet!)

And stencilface- don't you bloomin dare start worrying about what happens when he comes home already. You either find someone who will listen to what Nic suggests, let him do his own thing or if that isn't doable a little bit of a rasp touch up - all I ever do with Frank is take the length of his toes/round them as they start to get away from us otherwise.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Slightly off the main topic, but when a vet was treating my old boy for an impactive colic a few months ago, I asked her if there was any evidence that tubing him with liquid paraffin was any more effective than just water or no tube at all and just painkillers.

yes, and there there's the oil or oil and salts question they are human, they go on whats worked for them in the past.

I think with the advent of vet practices linking up (XL Vets for example) these issues will improve. I don't think a lot of livery yards are conducive to barefoot but then, there's a lot that livery yards aren't conducive to lol. There are already more barefoot friendly yards springing up.

 

[stencilface]

I'll try not to, just two more weeks of sloshing in my paddock before he can go, although got his lameness check up at the vets next week, which would be better if he hadn't lost the shoe again! I felt he was close to having lovely feet before he went lame, so hopefully we can get back on that path again.

Just want to get rid of him now (in the nicest possible way!) then it will be another thing off my tick list. 12 weeks is a long time though, think I will have to schedule a long weekend to visit in that time, he won't miss me, but he will miss my pockets full of (good) treats.

 

[Kezzabell2]

I'll try not to, just two more weeks of sloshing in my paddock before he can go, although got his lameness check up at the vets next week, which would be better if he hadn't lost the shoe again! I felt he was close to having lovely feet before he went lame, so hopefully we can get back on that path again.

Just want to get rid of him now (in the nicest possible way!) then it will be another thing off my tick list. 12 weeks is a long time though, think I will have to schedule a long weekend to visit in that time, he won't miss me, but he will miss my pockets full of (good) treats.

Couldn't you just take his shoes off before he goes to Rockley? if he's only out on soft ground it will not make him any worse!! in fact pulling a shoe off will be more likely to break his hooves??

 

[HashRouge]

I bought a riders rasp to take off rough chips, just smooth them. When I explained to my farrier about this and the fact it looked a bit like a cheese grater he stated that I should keep it for grating cheese and stay away from my horses feet. Helpful.

You may not need to do anything at all if you can give your horse a reasonable amount of work. I was at the Rockley Reunion this year and most of the horses there were self-trimming and hadn't seen a farrier in years, including two owned by a vet who had great feet

ETA we also have a very complicated ex-Rockley horse here, but I can tell you right now that sending him there was the best thing we ever did, I only wish we'd done it sooner! If you ever want some moral support or just someone to rant to, feel free to PM me as I'm sure we have experienced just about every hiccup imaginable in rehab and come out the other side!

 

[stencilface]

Couldn't you just take his shoes off before he goes to Rockley? if he's only out on soft ground it will not make him any worse!! in fact pulling a shoe off will be more likely to break his hooves??

He has the shoes on as advised by the vet to alleviate the pain in his foot as a temporary measure before he goes to Rockley (as they have a waiting list - this was back in late September) He's now sound, which he wasn't before, and I just want him level and sound for the vets next week, and taking both of now won't acheive that.

You may not need to do anything at all if you can give your horse a reasonable amount of work. I was at the Rockley Reunion this year and most of the horses there were self-trimming and hadn't seen a farrier in years, including two owned by a vet who had great feet

ETA we also have a very complicated ex-Rockley horse here, but I can tell you right now that sending him there was the best thing we ever did, I only wish we'd done it sooner! If you ever want some moral support or just someone to rant to, feel free to PM me as I'm sure we have experienced just about every hiccup imaginable in rehab and come out the other side!

I'm hoping he will be, as I think he was for most of the time I had him bf before, fingers crossed I can do enough work, we are putting in an arena in Spring (yippee, whoop whoop and yay!) so hopefully can give him some foot exercise in there if I can't always take him out. And if I got some electric tape (barbed wire not a deterrent!) to stop him leaning over the fence into the farmers field I could turn him out on our gravel track too.

 

[SusieT]

problem is a lot of the 'positive' reports have inaccurate information - strasser had positive reports too. There are also lots of reports of 'I took my horses shoes off and now it is crippled but I'm not giving it any pain relief it will just have to become conditioned' but they are rarely discussed. The end result may improve with time but once has to consider the method at times.
And you have to bear in mind that you don't get people constantly posting about how their horse had shoes on and was able to do all these wonderful things because that is normal - and you tend to only hear about the problems. (A bit like child birth!)

 

[PorkChop]

Can I ask how many of you that have gone barefoot with your horses have transitioned them at home? Also did you put down any surfaces as Rockley have done?

Is this only necessary if they need re-hab rather than just transitioning from shoes to no shoes?

 

[Kezzabell2]

Can I ask how many of you that have gone barefoot with your horses have transitioned them at home? Also did you put down any surfaces as Rockley have done?

Is this only necessary if they need re-hab rather than just transitioning from shoes to no shoes?

well my horse is currently in this process, its been around 4 months, my vet didn't think he was at the stage of needing to go to Rockley so we've been doing it at home! We don't have any shale tracks or anything, so I started by walking inhand every day over different surfaces and along the roads etc! he's doing fantastically well! he is being rehabed after spending a year being lame on and off!

 

[PorkChop]

well my horse is currently in this process, its been around 4 months, my vet didn't think he was at the stage of needing to go to Rockley so we've been doing it at home! We don't have any shale tracks or anything, so I started by walking inhand every day over different surfaces and along the roads etc! he's doing fantastically well! he is being rehabed after spending a year being lame on and off!

Ahhh, thank you - so do Rockley only take problem horses as such?

All sounds very positive with your boy, hope he continues to improve and you get back on board soon