Self trimming, rockley farm, supported by my vet

My chestnut mare was taken BF with my new farrier with no special surfaces, just a field, a sand school (which wasn't really used) and road walking (in-hand to start with). She went from very distorted hooves (long toes and under-run heels), unsound, prone to abscesses due to the stretched white line, tripping, shoe pulling and tendon problems, to BF and sound on tarmac, concrete, sand and soil almost immediately. No over-reaching, no tendon trouble and a massive reduction in abscesses (she's now no more prone than any 'normal' horse).
 
Faracat said:
My chestnut mare was taken BF with my new farrier with no special surfaces, just a field, a sand school (which wasn't really used) and road walking (in-hand to start with). She went from very distorted hooves (long toes and under-run heels), unsound, prone to abscesses due to the stretched white line, tripping, shoe pulling and tendon problems, to BF and sound on tarmac, concrete, sand and soil almost immediately. No over-reaching, no tendon trouble and a massive reduction in abscesses (she's now no more prone than any 'normal' horse).
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You see, you make it sound so easy!
 
It would be interesting as well to know how many horses had been as carefully hand walked to resolve the lameness before they went barefoot- i.e how much of an impact controlled exercise has as tendon/ligament injuries often taken a long time (year +) to resolve and the treatment is often controlled exercise- so how much of the recovery is the lack of shoes and how much the controlled exercise.
 
It was for her. I think that the key was that she hadn't had those issues for long. Basically (to cut a long story short) I moved, so needed a new farrier, he effed up her hooves, was sacked and the new one took her BF. So no long standing 'navicular' type issues to fix.

ETA - SusieT, with my mare I was told that the shoes had to go by vet 4 (who actually could see what I was worried about) and the new farrier who is AWCF (BSc). They consulted together with me, to decide how to proceed. As I said, the shoes coming off transformed her. The issue is working a lame horse V working a sound one. She was lame in shoes and sound without them. I personally feel that walking a lame horse is not productive, you need to get it sound and then all that walking starts to do good.
 
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i did mine at home and changed the land to a sort of track system so he had to move over different sorts of ground to get back to his water/hay rather than just be in one paddock all day, he was very lame in all 4 hooves and we had nobody to help us except a very old ex endurance rider/ natural trimmer, he kept an eye on him and was hugely supportive and just gave a little rasp every now and then after an initial fairly radical trim, we then walked out each week until he started to look more comfortable, i know a lot more now and would do things a little differently perhaps but ultimately you have to find your own way and judge your progress by how your own horse copes and moves.
For every horse it is different so what is necessary for one is not for another , the quality of the hoof you start with will determine many things and how rapidly you progress.
 
ycbm said:
You do write some nonsense sometimes SusieT :(

You can't possibly have ever looked properly at the site to have written this.

As Ffion Winnie has pointed out, the horses are blogged on arrival, before the outcome is known. Follow up data is also published. The numbers are building, and gobsmackingly better than conventional treatment. And let's not forget that most of these horses have already been through conventional treatment and it hasn't worked.

No there's nothing to stop any research being done except who's going to pay for it. Individual vet practices don't make that kind of money.

I don't blame individual farriers and vets, but it beggars belief that the FRC and BVA aren't beating a path to Nic's door to find out how the hell she's doing it when they can't.
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it's quite unhelpful to label things other people have written 'rubbish'!

The problem is that, yes there are lots of reports of Rockley 'working', in terms of horses coming sound, and it's great that Rockley are so good at documenting that. What we need to do surely (and i think this may be what SusieT is suggesting) is to compare this with at least two other groups of horses - one group with remedial shoeing and see how many come sound, and perhaps another group of barefoot but non-rockley horses - or whatever. Are there examples you can give of the 'gobsmackingly better' data?? this suggests that there are comparative studies, and I can't find a study in the links you posted (thanks :-)) which gives comparative data. However, presumably remedial farriers must also do similar things in terms of following up with patients, and therefore everyone's collecting the data - they just need to work together. Little funding required! It's a shame that hasn't happened.

FWIW Rockley farm stopped replying to me when i started asking them about rehabbing a horse that's already barefoot (my horse), which I found interesting. When treeless saddles came out, we also saw a big rush in their popularity; they made a difference, for a while, to many horses just because something had changed; many people reported their horses moved more freely and all was great - for a while. Then we noticed a shift back. Now, as with most things, I think people accept that treeless saddles are great for some horses and not for others. Nobody is suggesting barefoot is 'bad', just that we need to understand it in comparison to normal methods.

N.b. my horses are barefoot :-)
 
SusieT said:
It would be interesting as well to know how many horses had been as carefully hand walked to resolve the lameness before they went barefoot- i.e how much of an impact controlled exercise has as tendon/ligament injuries often taken a long time (year +) to resolve and the treatment is often controlled exercise- so how much of the recovery is the lack of shoes and how much the controlled exercise.
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Mine has done three sets of careful in hand walking, followed by ridden walking (in fact I fib, durin one of the rehabs he was wild so it was safer to be on board!) with shoes on after doing his PSD, havign tenosynovitis and tendonitis in different legs. He came sound after all three. After the tendonitis was fixed, the summer after I took his shoes off. He was without shoes for 18-20 months when he went lame (although we had had footy bouts and abscesses before then) again, which I thought was bruising due to increased workloads. Turns out it was DDFT damage in both feet, which is now why I'm turning to Rockley as obviously what I did before wasn't correct, and we weren't working his feet properly.

My horse was footy quite a bit, which I put down now to too much high sugar grass, so I need to try harder to sort that.
 
Prancer said:
Thank you for the examples, however has anybody gone barefoot with a sound horse with no issues and did they encounter any problems?
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I did this originally go barefoot with my sound horse, no problems at all just built up slowly. He was great for years, then developed hoof problems later despite being barefoot (very long story).
 
Prancer, my TB is bf. He has always been totally sound. Shoes came off in June following KS surgery as he was scheduled to be shod soon after he returned home & I wasn't sure if he'd be able to hold his feet up long enough. He was walking v carefully for a few weeks as his feet were a bit sore, but was on box rest then field rest & walking in-hand. Started riding again in August, still bf. He now moves *exactly* the same as he did in shoes. His feet actually look fantastic. We only potter in my school/field because he has unrelated health issues, & if anything, he is more sure footed bf. I am planning to keep him bf - if he gets to the stage where he wants to do more work than 10-15 mins a day, we shall see what happens.

He has always disliked being shod, so it's nice not to have to put him through it any more. And I never have to miss riding from a lost shoe!

T x

ETA we've gone bitless as well...he prefers that too.
 
stencilface said:
I bought a riders rasp to take off rough chips, just smooth them. When I explained to my farrier about this and the fact it looked a bit like a cheese grater he stated that I should keep it for grating cheese and stay away from my horses feet. Helpful.
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sorry to appear sarcastic towards your farrier but why hasn't he been able to get your horse sound barefooot? Why the need to go to Rockley? I suspect once he comes back from Rockley your farrier is the one you will need to keep away from the feet. I am sure you will get on fine with the cheese grater!!
 
Kezzabell2 said:
well my horse is currently in this process, its been around 4 months, my vet didn't think he was at the stage of needing to go to Rockley so we've been doing it at home! We don't have any shale tracks or anything, so I started by walking inhand every day over different surfaces and along the roads etc! he's doing fantastically well! he is being rehabed after spending a year being lame on and off!
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I did. After doing my own research and not being at all scientifically minded I chose to go down this route and have a sound TB. (for the last 3 years) I took it very slowly, changed diet, did lots of in hand walking, used boots and made sure he was never uncomfortable. Keeping Thrush under control is paramount for my horse. I don't need to have scientific evidence although it would be helpful because have the evidence in front of me. I was one of the 'raised eyebrow' brigade too before I had little choice but to re-think what was considered the 'norm' of current thinking on treatment options.
 
Prancer said:
Thank you for the examples, however has anybody gone barefoot with a sound horse with no issues and did they encounter any problems?
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I took mine barefoot, I've had no problem or lameness as a result of being barefoot. I've had plenty of lameness due to other injuries.

The biggest difficulties for us have been getting the diet right, and keeping up the required workload through the winter months.

My vet has not been supportive, every lameness exam starts with him looking suspiciously at her feet. Giving it everything he's got with the hoof testers then moving on and diagnosing something else.
 
So a few extra comments I do think these days that those advising are pretty pro appropriate analgesia/booting as necessary if a horse is sore during transition. But, it does require the owner/attending professionals to make a judgement on that.

No it isn't always easy and sometimes there will be blips or bits you worry about.

Rockley are IMO guilty of mentioning long term follow ups mostly of success stories that are out competing etc. I have no doubt that all horses leave Rockley better than they leave but not all horses end up rock crunching sound afterwards and it isn't a magic bullet 1) there is work to do afterwards and I think a fair few have a blip when they are taken out of the Rockley regime and surfaces but they do have a good start on where they need to be. 2) Some horses are never going to be able to make it to rock crunch whatever you do due to conformational issues/past history etc, and many will keep a preference to go on the grass verge/won't be cantering along roads of their own volition. 3) Some horses will benefit from a level of trimming.
 
Prancer, we transitioned at home.
No surfaces but we did graze on a track to keep intake down and movement up and did road walking in hand then ridden.
He did go sore after 6 weeks (not unusual/hoof wake up point!) and was booted on hard surfaces for approx 5/6 months, although did grass work bare. I probably took things unnecessarily slowly but he was lame when we started and it was more important to feel like I had at least tried to get it right.
we had one day he was very footsore and spent the day stood on our small gravel patch - it turned out not to be an abscess and a result of him galloping around said track on hard ground through the night (they were at home so knew the antics as they were heard ;)).
Gradually had boots on less and did more work- soles always a bit flat though, likely due to the position of his pedal bone and subsequently fine on road etc but struggled on stoney tracks for too long.
Made another big improvement in general stone crunchingness and concavity on moving to wiltshire with me. Likely combination of poorer quality grazing and a lot more work, after a few months of moving I took on trimming a little myself as he was better doing little and often rather than having a trim every 6 weeks and we found out that he really liked to keep his bars even if they were a bit overgrown. Now I can observe if he is frog shedding his bars grow, once frog settles bars go ;).
 
Prancer said:
Thank you for the examples, however has anybody gone barefoot with a sound horse with no issues and did they encounter any problems?
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Yes, and no. Two sound horses who both had shoes taken off with no other management changes, neither appeared to notice lack of shoes. I used boots for a while when we moved to a place with forestry roads for hacking, but neither really needed them as I discovered over time! I have one other who has really pants hoof conformation (though never lame from it) and he likes boots for hacking the forests but is fine without for anything else.

ETA All 'self regulating' for the most part now, even at times of year when they're not doing much work. No-one seems to believe me but for n=4 now, there is no requirement for hard work to regulate hoof length!
 
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Prancer said:
Ahhh, thank you - so do Rockley only take problem horses as such?

All sounds very positive with your boy, hope he continues to improve and you get back on board soon :)
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I'm.not sure he hasn't been to Rockley but we are following their principles to help with his hoof issues

I was back on board after 3 weeks of removing his shoes. :) not doing anything massively exciting just hacking but I am a happy hacker at the end of the day ;)
 
Prancer said:
Thank you for the examples, however has anybody gone barefoot with a sound horse with no issues and did they encounter any problems?
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Taken loads out of shoes. The only problem I ever encountered after the transition was done was slipping on the corners on a hard dry dressage arena on grass. I've had one rehab fail, due to a bone spur on the navicular. The horse was massively improved, but never stayed sound in full work. I've had one who was slow to adjust to increases and decreases I work, so his feet would grow too much if you stopped work. Then if you started work again you had to build it up slowly or he scalped his hind feet (but was never unsound, oddly). Horses with IR, EMS, EPSM, Cushings, can find it too difficult, or can need removing from grass completely.

I also believe that barefoot horses get laminitis more easily than shod ones. I base this on the belief that the blood supply is greater to an unshod foot (hence faster growth) and my understanding that a certain amount of toxin needs to be delivered from the gut, in the blood, in a certain amount of time in order to inflame the laminae. It follows that if unshod feet have a bigger blood supply, that they will receive more of any toxin in the blood. Luckily, it is much easier to spot in an unshod horse before it becomes a problem. I don't consider this a drawback, because the toxins are affecting the whole body, not just the feet, and any early warning system is welcome, to me.
 
Thankyou for the laminitis explanation, I struggle to get that across to people, so will have to remember how you put it. My horse does get fleshy in the summer, fleshier, kind of swollen sheath, and gets sensitive when you brush down his sides, but this is only since he's had his shoes off and only in the summer with the good grass. He's been tested for cushings which was negative.
 
Kezzabell2 said:
I treasure him more than you will ever know! my horse is only 5 and has had heart bars, then raise heel shoes with pads and everything we were trying was making him more and more lame! It was devestating to see, as he was bought as an 18 month old, to be my forever horse! he went from 6/10th lame to not lame within a few days of having his shoes off! and readjusted to not wearing shoes within a few weeks!

After 3 weeks of no shoes I was on him again, only going up the lane, the transformation has been amazing!
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warms my heart to read this :)
 
Shady said:
Well put Paddy, both of mine are barefoot and i can't imagine riding a horse any other way, to me it's normal too, i'm always amazed and saddened that more people won't just get their lame horses shoes off and turn them away for 6 months to see what happens, when i got one of mine i knew he was a mess and lame but i really felt looking at him with a friend that he was worth buying/ rescueing , getting the shoes off, turning him away and seeing what happened, we took it slowly and i can honestly say that apart from a little hock stiffness from too many piaffes he is amazing and agile over any ground. I'm really pleased for you Kezzabell ,what a star your vet is. x
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Couldn't agree with you more Shady :)
 
Another question - sorry!

Those that have barefoot horses, how long did it take before being able to go for it out hacking or competing?

I am not a happy hacker, and when I do hack I don't hang about, whether that is on the road or in a field!

Can you truly have a barefoot competition horse in the majority of cases?

I find it all very interesting, I am not sceptical, however I am a realist - there must be a reason that I see very few horses without shoes when we are out and about competing, considering how popular it is.
 
Barefoot popularity is relative, it's popular on here, but I think a lot of people on here came looking for help so it's a different demographic. Most of the horsey population are completely in the dark about it being a possibility imho.
 
Prancer said:
Another question - sorry!

Those that have barefoot horses, how long did it take before being able to go for it out hacking or competing?

I am not a happy hacker, and when I do hack I don't hang about, whether that is on the road or in a field!

Can you truly have a barefoot competition horse in the majority of cases?

I find it all very interesting, I am not sceptical, however I am a realist - there must be a reason that I see very few horses without shoes when we are out and about competing, considering how popular it is.
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I had mine barefoot and was competing at endurance for several years with no problems, so this included roadwork and varied tracks and not hanging about as you put it! Also a bit of light hunting/sponsored rides.

However, he developed some sort of weird mystery hoof lameness which is as yet unsolved (following £4000 of diagnosis and different treatments) so make of that what you will. An initial diagnosis I had was that it was arthritis of coffin joint, navicular and sidebone (later disproved) but the point is that at the time the vet and farrier both said, flippantly and with no agenda, that they see these more often in barefoots than shod horses. Which really got me thinking, and got me sceptical.

Since the injury, remedial shoeing hasn't worked for him but neither has being barefoot!! He is in the middle of a year off. But this is a real mystery lameness (my current thinking is that there has been a horrid abscess that has caused some sort of major trauma and needs to grow out many times over) so who knows, he could just be a one off. I will now keep him barefoot, but I am not expecting to get him back to full work; hopefully he will be able to hack and do flatwork though.
 
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I think if you want to be competitive SJ on grass you need studs, eventing I think it depends on the level/how you feel if the ground is really rubbish and you can't stud/how confident horse is.

Re timelines as I said we took it probably slower than needed.
Shoes came off late March 2012, started 5 mins walking in hand and built up, all hacking straight lines. Had our first canter in the September - that would partly have been from waiting for the ground to soften too. At that point started the odd circle (though no school at home anyway) and we did Dressage at previous level in the November, gallops down the beach that winter, hacking up the quantocks abre March 2013 (took until then to get round to it I imagine, I was just checking pics)
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and not looked back from that point, he joined me in wiltshire November 2013 so had a work increase as my mum was previously keeping 2 fit apart from weekends and no hills on the somerset levels, hunted feb 2014 (just wasn't fit enough before then). We now go miles, and miles and miles. He has on occasion felt his feet a little the day after hunting if we have charged over a lot of stoney terrain - the sort he would normally take a bit of time over!

Re popular, I think it is popular among people who have had issues with their horses and are relieved to have said horses back and sound. Outside of that/with sound horses anyway people prefer to stick to the status quo, in part because I think because if you buy a horse to primarily compete most would like to spend some time getting to know it/go out competing and see how you get on rather than putting things a bit on hold to transition out of shoes.

One last important point is that regular physio during the transition is a must.
 
Morgan123 said:
I had mine barefoot and was competing at endurance for several years with no problems, so this included roadwork and varied tracks and not hanging about as you put it! Also a bit of light hunting/sponsored rides.

However, he developed some sort of weird mystery hoof lameness which is as yet unsolved (following £4000 of diagnosis and different treatments) so make of that what you will. An initial diagnosis I had was that it was arthritis of coffin joint, navicular and sidebone (later disproved) but the point is that at the time the vet and farrier both said, flippantly and with no agenda, that they see these more often in barefoots than shod horses. Remedial shoeing hasn't worked for him but neither has being barefoot!! Which really got me thinking, and got me sceptical.

He is in the middle of a year off. But this is a real mystery lameness (my current thinking is that there has been a horrid abscess that has caused some sort of major trauma and needs to grow out many times over) so who knows, he could just be a one off. I will now keep him barefoot, but I am not expecting to get him back to full work; hopefully he will be able to hack and do flatwork though.
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Morgan yes, as I said not a magic bullet and not a protection from all possible hoof unsoundnesses/issues either but I think probably mechanically and functionally better for most.
 
And people do still head to the status quo if things go wrong.

I am constantly surprised how people are surprised that a native pony can go without shoes. I think they would collapse if they saw a TB hunting without and it is usually associated with a well that is good, I guess you don't do much roadwork. . . the reality being that however hard I try I can't do enough roadwork for them not to need a rasp every so often.

It also amuses me that those that know the effort that has previously gone into them and that we obviously have things down a T and that he manages to do lots on them will still randomly say - oh his feet look good at the moment don't they? - when they have never looked bad in the time they have known him. Yet despite all that, and knowing that I am a bit of a hoof geek these days, won't mention it when a horse that has had no hind shoes on for all of its 10 odd years of life seems not quite right and gets shoes put on... :p
 
Lol Ester, i know just what you mean, iv'e got a friend who has shared the journey of me getting my PRE sound and is still making the dumbest comments about his hooves, i got so fed up with her negativity that i made her come out for a hack with me and i pushed the horses hard ( they love it by the way, not cruel, honest!) she was honestly amazed by their agility and soundness over rocky ground and in fact i can go up rock ledges on mine that she can't on her shod horse,i did it to try and enlighten her as her horse loses shoes, is badly shod and does a lot of road work, she's also often lame , she is however convinced that mine will founder at any moment .... gah, i could strangle her!
 
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