Sellers' honesty and buyer suitability

[sportsmansB]

I think decent 'trade' sellers are aware that selling the wrong horse has repercussions for them (in both reputation and time and hassle)
At our event yard, we regularly get people over from england and the US who say they want a serious competition prospect but are not capable to ride that type of horse. We have a few quiet ones that we use to gauge their ability before showing them the one that they think they came to see- and some don't get that far.
If you are selling a young competition horse, having some idiot who pays a fortune to be told they are great trying to jump it and making a lot of mistakes is an issue for the horse as well. Just because they have the budget for a fancy horse doesn't mean that is what they need.
Some leave disappointed that the horse they came to try 'was just a bit feely his morning' or 'the owner changed their mind about selling' and some leave delighted with the quieter horse who didn't fit their brief actually being the right one for them (and possibly the only one they have felt safe on while trying multiple horses in multiple yards!)

 

[LEC]

I have sold some younger horses recently and the buyers were delusional. It's always women of a certain age. It was excruciating to watch but I usually let them ride and kept them safe and they knew when they came to the end that the horse wasn't right for them. I weed out a lot over the phone but some will slip through as they are either over indexing with their confidence on ability or experience.

These are the issues as I see them.

1) Quality average horses exist less than ever now because they are not worth the time and effort to produce. So there is always some decent breeding in most horses now especially warmbloods on the whole. For me to produce a lovely quality ID x horse it would cost me 2x the amount to a sharp warmblood which jumps. The warmblood can be sold at 4/5 with the word potential. The ID x are slower to mature, so need another year, they also need to tick more boxes such as traffic which takes longer, they will then be more limited in maximum price attained and nobody wants a 4yo one at a decent price because they either want older or think they can do it themselves cheaper.

2) A lot of people do not want a hairy horse. The Hairy cobs have fallen in to fill the gap of the average horse because they are no longer being produced. Hairy cobs are often too small as no real thought goes into breeding them, too short in the back as designed to pull, not be ridden and on the whole are not going to going round a 90/100cm track easily without it putting pressure on them because ultimately they are not designed for that job. Sure there are some that do but they are in the minority at 90cm+. I appreciate some people love them and they absolutely do the job for them but just pointing out my observations. A similar issue with natives, they are often too small and then the big ones like Cleveland Bays we go back to problem 1.

3) Most people are buying a horse for what they think they want in the future and not what they actually need right now. If I had £1 for everytime someone says to me I want to go X .... the question should be, what are you doing at the moment and what have you done?

4) Money - people will always take the cheaper option because they think they can develop the necessary skills. They forget developing these skills take money. This will be the novice rider buying the 4yo because their trainer will help them. Well 99.9% of the week that horse is reliant on their current skill set. 1 or 2 hours a week with a trainer isn't going to cut it.

So we are in a catch 22. The types of horses people need are no longer being produced due to money. People always want cheaper as not prepared to fund someone's time and skill. So then we have a lot more sharper warmbloods, ex race horses which have fallen in an unskilled home due to price, hairies as produced on a bigger scale and people moaning about buying or selling when probably there is not enough of what people actually need more of because of...... yep money.

Vettings is a whole other subject and the influence of insurance and pushing towards younger horses... but that's for another day.

 

[ihatework]

I used to enjoy buying a nice project, allrounder type, improving them and selling, with the aim of covering my costs. So essentially a free hobby for me.

All (except the eventer i ended up keeping and running with a pro ) did just that. I managed to keep track of all but one and they did their jobs for new owners and generally stayed in that home for a good while.

But buying culture has changed so much. I literally can’t bear the thought of doing that these days, as much as I’d quite like to. It’s a clueless buyer and sue culture. Too risky.

 

[eahotson]

I have sold some younger horses recently and the buyers were delusional. It's always women of a certain age. It was excruciating to watch but I usually let them ride and kept them safe and they knew when they came to the end that the horse wasn't right for them. I weed out a lot over the phone but some will slip through as they are either over indexing with their confidence on ability or experience.

These are the issues as I see them.

1) Quality average horses exist less than ever now because they are not worth the time and effort to produce. So there is always some decent breeding in most horses now especially warmbloods on the whole. For me to produce a lovely quality ID x horse it would cost me 2x the amount to a sharp warmblood which jumps. The warmblood can be sold at 4/5 with the word potential. The ID x are slower to mature, so need another year, they also need to tick more boxes such as traffic which takes longer, they will then be more limited in maximum price attained and nobody wants a 4yo one at a decent price because they either want older or think they can do it themselves cheaper.

2) A lot of people do not want a hairy horse. The Hairy cobs have fallen in to fill the gap of the average horse because they are no longer being produced. Hairy cobs are often too small as no real thought goes into breeding them, too short in the back as designed to pull, not be ridden and on the whole are not going to going round a 90/100cm track easily without it putting pressure on them because ultimately they are not designed for that job. Sure there are some that do but they are in the minority at 90cm+. I appreciate some people love them and they absolutely do the job for them but just pointing out my observations. A similar issue with natives, they are often too small and then the big ones like Cleveland Bays we go back to problem 1.

3) Most people are buying a horse for what they think they want in the future and not what they actually need right now. If I had £1 for everytime someone says to me I want to go X .... the question should be, what are you doing at the moment and what have you done?

4) Money - people will always take the cheaper option because they think they can develop the necessary skills. They forget developing these skills take money. This will be the novice rider buying the 4yo because their trainer will help them. Well 99.9% of the week that horse is reliant on their current skill set. 1 or 2 hours a week with a trainer isn't going to cut it.

You make some good points but the main one for me is that decent alrounders are very rarely found these days.If they are sold they tend to go by word of mouth.
I wanted a 9 plus steady,safe,been there done that alrounder.It is safe to say that I am aged and have limited nerve.I wanted a cob because I wanted a small horse capable of carrying some weight.
I ended up with a 4 year old mare because I just couldn't find what I was looking for .I paid £8000 for her.She is now 15hh and can carry up to an 18 inch saddle.Good conformation. I factored in the additional money I would need for serious help and I bought her because of her excellent temperament.
By trial and error I found an excellent trainer and she is proving to be the horse I always thought she could be.She will plod for me,albeit is responsive to the leg and can step up considerably for trainer.I have had a lot of interest in her and she will never be on the open market.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have sold some younger horses recently and the buyers were delusional. It's always women of a certain age. It was excruciating to watch but I usually let them ride and kept them safe and they knew when they came to the end that the horse wasn't right for them. I weed out a lot over the phone but some will slip through as they are either over indexing with their confidence on ability or experience.

These are the issues as I see them.

1) Quality average horses exist less than ever now because they are not worth the time and effort to produce. So there is always some decent breeding in most horses now especially warmbloods on the whole. For me to produce a lovely quality ID x horse it would cost me 2x the amount to a sharp warmblood which jumps. The warmblood can be sold at 4/5 with the word potential. The ID x are slower to mature, so need another year, they also need to tick more boxes such as traffic which takes longer, they will then be more limited in maximum price attained and nobody wants a 4yo one at a decent price because they either want older or think they can do it themselves cheaper.

2) A lot of people do not want a hairy horse. The Hairy cobs have fallen in to fill the gap of the average horse because they are no longer being produced. Hairy cobs are often too small as no real thought goes into breeding them, too short in the back as designed to pull, not be ridden and on the whole are not going to going round a 90/100cm track easily without it putting pressure on them because ultimately they are not designed for that job. Sure there are some that do but they are in the minority at 90cm+. I appreciate some people love them and they absolutely do the job for them but just pointing out my observations. A similar issue with natives, they are often too small and then the big ones like Cleveland Bays we go back to problem 1.

3) Most people are buying a horse for what they think they want in the future and not what they actually need right now. If I had £1 for everytime someone says to me I want to go X .... the question should be, what are you doing at the moment and what have you done?

4) Money - people will always take the cheaper option because they think they can develop the necessary skills. They forget developing these skills take money. This will be the novice rider buying the 4yo because their trainer will help them. Well 99.9% of the week that horse is reliant on their current skill set. 1 or 2 hours a week with a trainer isn't going to cut it.

So we are in a catch 22. The types of horses people need are no longer being produced due to money. People always want cheaper as not prepared to fund someone's time and skill. So then we have a lot more sharper warmbloods, ex race horses which have fallen in an unskilled home due to price, hairies as produced on a bigger scale and people moaning about buying or selling when probably there is not enough of what people actually need more of because of...... yep money.

Vettings is a whole other subject and the influence of insurance and pushing towards younger horses... but that's for another day.

All the above is 100% correct.

I have bought from private sellers and dealers and some were good and some were not so good, or not as described.

We had dealer friends and bought a few from them, and they said it was much easier to sell a quiet plod rather than a nice competition horse as most people buying their horses weren't that capable or riding the competition horse. They sold all sorts, from children's ponies, hunters, all rounders and at one time were competing at 3 day events and everything was for sale.

They wouldn't deliberately sell you a dodgy horse, but their business was to sell horses so yes, they did want to sell, even if they thought the people might be over-horsing themselves. They set a price and did not negotiate. They would take one back, on their terms if it really needed to. They were often called in to help sort problems, but the odd thing was that many times the minute they arrived on the scene the problem disappeared! The husband had been in the Kings Troop and the wife was from a long line of horse dealers. No doubt they knew a trick or two.

I love what you said about the cobs, because that is exactly what I think. Short backed, prone to bucking, being asked to be riding horses when they are vanners.

 

[Orangehorse]

"Quality average horses do not exist." Years ago local dealers would get a load from Ireland, they either went out to the sales or had a local pick them out and send them over. We had 2 ponies and 2 horses from Ireland years ago. They did well, not top class and not problem free, but good enough.

I'm not sure that this trade exists any more.

I have lately come across quite good young ponies that riding schools produce. They buy a few young ponies and then in the winter when they are less busy, the staff take the time to break them in and produce them over a year or two. They aren't used in the riding school, but are taken out and about a bit (just to say they have been somewhere) and hacked out alone and in a group and given basic schooling.

 

[eahotson]

All the above is 100% correct.

I have bought from private sellers and dealers and some were good and some were not so good, or not as described.

We had dealer friends and bought a few from them, and they said it was much easier to sell a quiet plod rather than a nice competition horse as most people buying their horses weren't that capable or riding the competition horse. They sold all sorts, from children's ponies, hunters, all rounders and at one time were competing at 3 day events and everything was for sale.

They wouldn't deliberately sell you a dodgy horse, but their business was to sell horses so yes, they did want to sell, even if they thought the people might be over-horsing themselves. They set a price and did not negotiate. They would take one back, on their terms if it really needed to. They were often called in to help sort problems, but the odd thing was that many times the minute they arrived on the scene the problem disappeared! The husband had been in the Kings Troop and the wife was from a long line of horse dealers. No doubt they knew a trick or two.

I love what you said about the cobs, because that is exactly what I think. Short backed, prone to bucking, being asked to be riding horses when they are vanners.

My cob,£8000 as a 4 year old,does not buck and had an 18 inch saddle platform.As ever,you get what you pay for.

 

[Orangehorse]

My cob,£8000 as a 4 year old,does not buck and had an 18 inch saddle platform.As ever,you get what you pay for.

Not all of them buck, but it is something I have noticed. I reckon that with an 18" is it is not short backed!

It is great that you have found a lovely horse, they do exist.

We are about to go and look at a child's pony for sale, which is a coloured cob, so my sweeping generalisations won't stop us buying it if it is suitable.

 

[eahotson]

Not all of them buck, but it is something I have noticed. I reckon that with an 18" is it is not short backed!

It is great that you have found a lovely horse, they do exist.

We are about to go and look at a child's pony for sale, which is a coloured cob, so my sweeping generalisations won't stop us buying it if it is suitable.

No she is not short backed

 

[Nancykitt]

I also wonder if the seemingly increasing prevalence of CPL in hairy cobs will start to have an impact.

There are a couple of cob dealers on Facebook who seem to buy youngsters, bring them on mostly through hacking with a bit of school work and then sell them. To be fair, these dealers appear to be very honest about the cobs and will say if something isn't suitable for an ultra-nervous rider. The videos of the cobs' education are put on Facebook over a period of weeks so prospective buyers can see them. Overall, they look like good solid happy hacker types. I don't know about cost because these things aren't mentioned explicitly, but I can imagine that these horses don't come cheap.
One of the cob dealers mentioned that a Shire mare had CPL and I was glad that this had been disclosed. I'm sure that many of the other cobs also have CPL to some degree, but almost all of them are fully feathered so it won't be obvious. Buyers may not be aware of the implications of managing a horse with CPL. I have to admit that, before Ozzy, I didn't know a lot about the condition and it's been a steep learning curve.

 

[HopOnTrot]

I’m worried as I know I’ll be horse shopping in the near(ish) future, I want a safe happy hacker but I assume if I search for that I’ll just get adverts for horses too broken to do anything.

Weirdly every horse I’ve ever had has come from a riding school, totally different types (and success rates) but all ex-RS.

 

[smolmaus]

A proper cob should be an all round horse, I don't mean a Belgian or a Shire but a little Heinz 57 hairy thing can do a lot of jobs! Mine is short backed but at 14.1 she wouldn't be carrying a tall person anyway so it's proportional.

They probably won't be taking you round 1.10 classes but how many people have any reason to be doing that anyway, even if they want to locally there are a good few sporty cobs that you will see do a 1 day event, fly round a 90 SJ round, hack on the buckle and take the kids for pony rides. One in particular I know you could offer the owner 30k and she would laugh in your face.

If your horse bucks they have a problem. Thats not breed related but there is less thought put into the Heinz 57 cob sometimes so could be conformation problems I guess. You find those in every breed though.

 

[Nancykitt]

I have sold some younger horses recently and the buyers were delusional.

Delusional buyers are probably the biggest issue.
One of the cases I mentioned earlier was an older teenager who had eventing aspirations. However, she had very few riding lessons in her entire life, never jumped a track, never done a dressage test at any level. Her parents, who were also delusional, had it in their heads that 99% of success in eventing was down to the horse so all they had to do was spend a lot of money on the 'right' horse. Anyone who tried to advise them (using common sense) was regarded as an envious killjoy. A few years after they splashed out a lot of money on a horse, I saw a photograph of it with what looked very much like a loss of use stamp.
More commonly I came across people with limited resources where cheapness was the main consideration. Even when sellers were brutally honest about things like napping, rearing, bucking, being unpredictable out hacking etc etc they'd convince themselves that they were skilled and knowledgeable enough to fix all these problems. In a few cases it certainly wan't a happy ending.

I can say that I was very honest about my own ability. When we bought our Connie I said that I wanted a horse that would be a steady calm hack (for me) but could go up a gear for my daughter who was hunting and also competing in SJ and dressage at riding club level. He was exactly that - we were very lucky.

 

[ROMANY 1959]

When we bought my sons first horse, from a pony. He was a tall 13 year old. He played Polocrosse, at Pc we were friends with a polo horse provider, he had a horse we liked, but in order to buy her, my son had to have 4/5 lessons on her , as yes she would play polocrosse as well as polo. But she was sharp, turned on a slight rein touch. And had he not been honest, and said my son needed to learn to ride her, we could been in bother.
They clicked, she came with us 2 weeks later, and stayed with us till my son stopped playing at age 18 (University)
She went to another teenager to help teenager move up the grades, a friend of ours in the club.
And she now plays in the veterans (rider) so , yes find the right match , and you’re on way to a happy ending

 

[LEC]

A proper cob should be an all round horse, I don't mean a Belgian or a Shire but a little Heinz 57 hairy thing can do a lot of jobs! Mine is short backed but at 14.1 she wouldn't be carrying a tall person anyway so it's proportional.

They probably won't be taking you round 1.10 classes but how many people have any reason to be doing that anyway, even if they want to locally there are a good few sporty cobs that you will see do a 1 day event, fly round a 90 SJ round, hack on the buckle and take the kids for pony rides. One in particular I know you could offer the owner 30k and she would laugh in your face.

If your horse bucks they have a problem. Thats not breed related but there is less thought put into the Heinz 57 cob sometimes so could be conformation problems I guess. You find those in every breed though.

I do think a lot of the bucking is about saddle fit as a lot of people actually need a bigger saddle but rammed into a 16/17 inch or they end up with swept back panels which then lack weight bearing. I see it time and time again on fun rides particularly as think it's the most you see such a mix of horses and riders.

 

[eahotson]

I also wonder if the seemingly increasing prevalence of CPL in hairy cobs will start to have an impact.

There are a couple of cob dealers on Facebook who seem to buy youngsters, bring them on mostly through hacking with a bit of school work and then sell them. To be fair, these dealers appear to be very honest about the cobs and will say if something isn't suitable for an ultra-nervous rider. The videos of the cobs' education are put on Facebook over a period of weeks so prospective buyers can see them. Overall, they look like good solid happy hacker types. I don't know about cost because these things aren't mentioned explicitly, but I can imagine that these horses don't come cheap.
One of the cob dealers mentioned that a Shire mare had CPL and I was glad that this had been disclosed. I'm sure that many of the other cobs also have CPL to some degree, but almost all of them are fully feathered so it won't be obvious. Buyers may not be aware of the implications of managing a horse with CPL. I have to admit that, before Ozzy, I didn't know a lot about the condition and it's been a steep learning curve.

As ever a good vetting prior to purchase.I have had mine fully clipped out and hogged.She is now clipped even in the summer so fingers crossed. It is a consideration though

 

[eahotson]

I do think a lot of the bucking is about saddle fit as a lot of people actually need a bigger saddle but rammed into a 16/17 inch or they end up with swept back panels which then lack weight bearing. I see it time and time again on fun rides particularly as think it's the most you see such a mix of horses and riders.

Yes I thought that.They are not easy horses to fit a saddle to and some of the saddles aren't wide enough either.

 

[ihatework]

And then on the other hand you get really sensible buyers.

My unconventional eventer is/was an utter saint. Seriously. But he had a sensitive side, he wasn’t the best put together and had more than one veterinary declarations.

The person we sold him to had basically stalked him before calling, and I had 2-3 people calling me up saying they had received calls from a random stranger about him. I then got a call from the instructor. Completely relevant and sensible questions. I was able to discuss vet history with someone who knew what they were talking about.

He was sold to a very competent young dressage rider who fancied a crack at eventing but who had zero competitive jumping experience.

5 years later he has taken her from 90cm to her first novice. Has a very high strike rate on top 6 placings including multiple wins.

That was the nicest horse sale I have ever made as the thought of selling him initially made me feel quite sick.

 

[smolmaus]

I do think a lot of the bucking is about saddle fit as a lot of people actually need a bigger saddle but rammed into a 16/17 inch or they end up with swept back panels which then lack weight bearing. I see it time and time again on fun rides particularly as think it's the most you see such a mix of horses and riders.

Thats very fair, we have a 16" Whittaker with the swept panels which our fitter said we were lucky to get and absolutely must come back to her if I ever change it because they're like hens teeth I'm only 5'2" but still not allowed to let my arse get any bigger

Around me the saddle fit issues i notice are with Welsh ponies. They're all up the ponies neck, probably because all the ponies do is whip round SJ rounds like a demon and never do any core work, then when the pony dumps the kid its blamed on "oh cheeky welshies".

 

[eahotson]

A proper cob should be an all round horse, I don't mean a Belgian or a Shire but a little Heinz 57 hairy thing can do a lot of jobs! Mine is short backed but at 14.1 she wouldn't be carrying a tall person anyway so it's proportional.

They probably won't be taking you round 1.10 classes but how many people have any reason to be doing that anyway, even if they want to locally there are a good few sporty cobs that you will see do a 1 day event, fly round a 90 SJ round, hack on the buckle and take the kids for pony rides. One in particular I know you could offer the owner 30k and she would laugh in your face.

If your horse bucks they have a problem. Thats not breed related but there is less thought put into the Heinz 57 cob sometimes so could be conformation problems I guess. You find those in every breed though.

Mine jumped a big ditch very competently the other day when she wanted to leave her field and join another.

 

[Annagain]

Yes sellers have a responsibility to match riders but buyers also have a responsibility to be honest about their abilities. I think part of the issue is that it's not an exact science. On paper, Charlie and I were were perfect for each other. I took an experienced friend with me, seller was completely honest and was totally happy that we were well suited. The first 6-9 months were great, we won our first dressage outing, were getting going with jumping then it all fell apart. We just lost trust in each other and couldn't get it back. There was a physical reason for this (totally not the fault of the seller, just something that manifested itself as his workload increased) but even when that was sorted, we just couldn't click. He made me nervous, I made him nervous and the vicious circle began.

On paper, Wiggy is the same horse, just a few years older. He and I are perfect for each other. Charlie meanwhile is flying round BE90s having a whale of a time with his new owner who, on paper, is very similar to me!

I think another issue is sometimes, dealers / sales livery people don't realise how good they are as riders. I remember going to try one who the dealer described as really quiet and he really did look like that when she was on him. Then I got on him and quickly realised how quietly she must have been sitting because the slightest shifting of my weight and he was off! I was the first to see him and she really wasn't expecting that reaction from him. I'm not that bad a rider but I definitely don't have the same seat and core as someone who is riding all day every day and popping round BE Novices and Intermediates most weekends!

 

[smolmaus]

Mine jumped a big ditch very competently the other day when she wanted to leave her field and join another.

Oh mine has jumped a 6' gate (twice) but can vs should also goes for horses

 

[eahotson]

Yes sellers have a responsibility to match riders but buyers also have a responsibility to be honest about their abilities. I think part of the issue is that it's not an exact science. On paper, Charlie and I were were perfect for each other. I took an experienced friend with me, seller was completely honest and was totally happy that we were well suited. The first 6-9 months were great, we won our first dressage outing, were getting going with jumping then it all fell apart. We just lost trust in each other and couldn't get it back. There was a physical reason for this (totally not the fault of the seller, just something that manifested itself as his workload increased) but even when that was sorted, we just couldn't click. He made me nervous, I made him nervous and the vicious circle began.

On paper, Wiggy is the same horse, just a few years older. He and I are perfect for each other. Charlie meanwhile is flying round BE90s having a whale of a time with his new owner who, on paper, is very similar to me!

I think another issue is sometimes, dealers / sales livery people don't realise how good they are as riders. I remember going to try one who the dealer described as really quiet and he really did look like that when she was on him. Then I got on him and quickly realised how quietly she must have been sitting because the slightest shifting of my weight and he was off! I was the first to see him and she really wasn't expecting that reaction from him. I'm not that bad a rider but I definitely don't have the same seat and core as someone who is riding all day every day and popping round BE Novices and Intermediates most weekends!

My trainer and her mother have sold a few,mainly outgrown ponies over the years.She said they sold one to what seemed an ideal rider and home.Once in new home though they just could not get on with him and he couldn't get on with them.He had to come back.He was later resold and settled fine.

 

[AppyLover1996]

I think that as a buyer it is 95% your place to make sure that you are suitable for the horse that you are viewing. The seller doesn't know you like your instructor does and that's why it's crucial to take someone who knows your riding very well and can also back the seller up if they think you aren't a good match. The seller is seeing a snapshot in time of you and your riding skills - if you tell porkies about your ability, it's not fair to blame the seller who has to take it at face value that you're telling the truth.

When I was looking at buying my next horse, I knew that I wanted a young horse after having to deal with sorting out all the baggage that came with Baggs, but the question was how young was I willing to go. I spoke to my instructor, lots of friends who knew my riding abilities etc and who I knew would be brutally honest to me. I asked for all the pros and cons of raising and backing your own youngster from scratch and asked them to be brutally honest and not sugar coat things. I also popped a post on here and asked for pros and cons to make sure that I was getting the full picture of what would be involved in the future if I were to go down this route. Further more I was extremely lucky to be able to help my instructor start and ride away her two young horses, so I got the full picture of what I was letting myself in for.

When I then enquired about Rabbit to his breeder, I sent plenty of videos of me riding, my various qualifications, experience levels and even sent over details for my riding instructor as a reference. I said to Rabbit's breeder that I wanted her to vet me as thoroughly as she deemed necessary, ask as many questions as she wanted and to really grill me to make sure that it would be as perfect a match as we could get for Rabbit. I went to visit him several times, and whilst there I did various handling routines and tasks where his breeder could then advise me on ways to tweak my technique if it weren't the best it could be. At each point, I checked in with Rabbit's breeder to make sure that she was happy to continue going ahead with me purchasing Rabbit.

As a result - Rabbit is everything and more that I could ever dream of. He truly is 101% the right horse for me, and although we are currently going through the terrible two stage, his breeder is at the end of the phone with plenty of helpful advice and reassurance if I need it.

I understand that my experience is a bit odd as Rabbit was only 8 months old when I brought him, so therefore I couldn't do any of the riding part of trying a new horse, but we did everything possible to make sure that it would be as smooth as it could be

 

[HaplessHorse]

When I brought Saus, she was a freebie who came with my very flashy Welsh D, which should’ve set off alarm bells if I’m being honest. He wasn’t so much mis-sold as the seller neglected to mention certain things, and I was a foolish 13-year old who fell in love with a pretty palomino who rode nicely. Me and my parents were very frank about my abilities (just coming off RS ponies) at that point and the sellers insisted it’d be a good match. When I rode him, I had a few slight reservations but I ignored those because, on paper, he was what I was looking for (elderly been there, done it PC/RC horse ready for a step down). His owners would never have let us take him, because they knew he was sharp with a history of rearing when spooked (funnily enough, they’re now family friends). However, the seller just told us what we wanted to hear to be honest. Suffice to say, it did not come to a pretty ending. We didn’t do any litigation because we’d eaten the cake as it were, and I think it was equally my fault for ignoring my own concerns on the day.

The dealer who’d sold him to us couldn’t look me in the eye when I came back a year later, which told me all I needed to know. Apparently, he now leaves the horsey side to his wife and sticks to the sheep, so he does have a conscience.

Anyway, I’m now hopefully settling with cob! When we first spoke to her owner a year ago, it sounded like she wouldn’t be right as she was described as “strong” and a “pocket rocket”. So, on paper, she wasn’t a perfect match but in reality she keeps me safe. Although she does need specific and consistent handling, it isn’t much of a stretch once you’re familiar with her. Her owner was very honest and frank about her and I part-loaned her for a month or so. Even then, bringing her home wasn’t plain sailing!

I think everyone involved needs to be honest and do due diligence because horses are living things who will feel the repercussions of bad decisions. Just as the seller won’t know your long-term riding style, you won’t know the horse’s long-term behaviour, which is why I would like some degree of honesty about the horse on a seller’s part to ensure a good match.

 

[SEL]

I do think a lot of the bucking is about saddle fit as a lot of people actually need a bigger saddle but rammed into a 16/17 inch or they end up with swept back panels which then lack weight bearing. I see it time and time again on fun rides particularly as think it's the most you see such a mix of horses and riders.

Having had a month of problems after changing my panels for my WOW - which they insisted were the same size - I can confirm just 1/2 inch can cause issues.

Although I think a lot of cobs buck because when they get excited you need to be able to let their necks out and push on. I'm as guilty as the next of taking too much contact when mine is being sharp - unless I can get him forward its nose into chest and up come the back legs.

I don't think CPL needs to be a huge issue unless you want to show with full feather. Most look fine clipped out.

 

[little_critter]

I do think the buyer has to take some responsibility. Take an instructor or a genuinely knowledgeable friend with you.Be honest with yourself about your abilities. Accept that if you choose not to have the horse vetted you are running a higher level of risk.

I tried to take a trainer with me to viewings but mostly failed miserably.
It was hard enough working out viewing times that would suit both me and seller, add in trying to fit in a trainer (usually at short notice) who has her own clients already booked in for lessons so can't be flexible.
I think I managed to get her to come to one viewing...and that horse failed the vet.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have sold some younger horses recently and the buyers were delusional. It's always women of a certain age. It was excruciating to watch but I usually let them ride and kept them safe and they knew when they came to the end that the horse wasn't right for them. I weed out a lot over the phone but some will slip through as they are either over indexing with their confidence on ability or experience.

These are the issues as I see them.

1) Quality average horses exist less than ever now because they are not worth the time and effort to produce. So there is always some decent breeding in most horses now especially warmbloods on the whole. For me to produce a lovely quality ID x horse it would cost me 2x the amount to a sharp warmblood which jumps. The warmblood can be sold at 4/5 with the word potential. The ID x are slower to mature, so need another year, they also need to tick more boxes such as traffic which takes longer, they will then be more limited in maximum price attained and nobody wants a 4yo one at a decent price because they either want older or think they can do it themselves cheaper.

2) A lot of people do not want a hairy horse. The Hairy cobs have fallen in to fill the gap of the average horse because they are no longer being produced. Hairy cobs are often too small as no real thought goes into breeding them, too short in the back as designed to pull, not be ridden and on the whole are not going to going round a 90/100cm track easily without it putting pressure on them because ultimately they are not designed for that job. Sure there are some that do but they are in the minority at 90cm+. I appreciate some people love them and they absolutely do the job for them but just pointing out my observations. A similar issue with natives, they are often too small and then the big ones like Cleveland Bays we go back to problem 1.

3) Most people are buying a horse for what they think they want in the future and not what they actually need right now. If I had £1 for everytime someone says to me I want to go X .... the question should be, what are you doing at the moment and what have you done?

4) Money - people will always take the cheaper option because they think they can develop the necessary skills. They forget developing these skills take money. This will be the novice rider buying the 4yo because their trainer will help them. Well 99.9% of the week that horse is reliant on their current skill set. 1 or 2 hours a week with a trainer isn't going to cut it.

So we are in a catch 22. The types of horses people need are no longer being produced due to money. People always want cheaper as not prepared to fund someone's time and skill. So then we have a lot more sharper warmbloods, ex race horses which have fallen in an unskilled home due to price, hairies as produced on a bigger scale and people moaning about buying or selling when probably there is not enough of what people actually need more of because of...... yep money.

Vettings is a whole other subject and the influence of insurance and pushing towards younger horses... but that's for another day.

I agree with all this, there’s not enough of the right sort of horses for the market.
When I was young loads of people kept a mare they liked and had a foal from her they they started them or sold to someone who started them and they got ridden around perhaps taken them to some local shows took them autumn hunting and then sold them on.

One thing I think is adding to issues is an issue with trainers .
Not enough trainers spend the time slog and effort to really train position in the lower level competitive riders .
Not enough riders understand the extent that their riding can be changed with slog and effort.
That’s why so many people get stuck unable to improve.

 

[Nancykitt]

I don't think CPL needs to be a huge issue unless you want to show with full feather. Most look fine clipped out.

True - but it helps if they will let you clip their legs! At the moment we're probably some way from that stage. The sedation was a nightmare, I really wouldn't want to go through that again.

CPL isn't the most expensive condition to treat but there are things like mite treatments which can be costly...we used Cydectin because it's considered the very best treatment but it cost us £134 for a bottle. Then there's the marigold and cleavers, which certainly helps. And many CPL horses need emollients on the legs, plus wound cream for the little sores...

A diagnosis isn't the end of the world, it's an incurable but manageable condition. However, it would be reasonable for some people to be put off buying a feathered horse/ hairy cob if there are signs of CPL.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Practically no one wants to pay for a properly produced horse these days or realizes (usually buyers) the cost or properly producing a horse. To be (somewhat) fair, you've all had cheap horses and cheap horse supplies for quite a long time. I've felt like horses have been under priced historically, but also the cost of horse keeping in the UK wasn't incredibly high in comparison to other places that I've lived.

If people don't want to pay for the "right sort" then what's the point of putting yourself in a hole by producing them to sell at a loss?