Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
I think this is a good point!
It's very reasonable to say 'take an instructor/trainer/knowledgeable friend' with you to a viewing, but most of these people work and can't drop everything at short notice.
Sellers' honesty and buyer suitability
- Thread starter Nancykitt
- Start date
I think this is a good point!
It's very reasonable to say 'take an instructor/trainer/knowledgeable friend' with you to a viewing, but most of these people work and can't drop everything at short notice.
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
Post-covid I think there has been a bigger trend towards people buying unseen. it was virtually unheard of pre-2020 in the amateur circles. Because of the demand during lockdown and thereafter not only did prices go up but the speed of sales dramatically increased, so that with a desirable horse unless you made a call within minutes of the advert going live you were missing out.
The market isn't as hot now, but that attitude it harder to shake off.
In reality, most of us should not be buying ridden horses unseen or untried. Not only from the point of view of whether the horse is the right fit safety-wise, but also whether we will enjoy riding the horse.
I stable at a riding school and have ridden the vast majority of their horses at some point. There are some that look absolutely beautiful to ride but feel very different. They are incredibly well-schooled, so it's not that, but their canter might be bone rattling, their sitting trot is very bouncy, they prefer to be ridden with a hand position different to the one I have etc. If you saw my horse going you'd think he's a comfy ride but he's actually incredibly bouncy to the point of some people wobbling off. You don't know that unless you try.
It's not necessarily a question of ability, although that is a factor of course.
I have bought youngsters unseen but with the view that if they don't grow into what I want I will have to sell them as what they are. That's much easier to accept when you've paid foal prices and not 8 year old prices.
A good dealer will discuss your riding ability, ambitions, use of the horse etc. An even better one will request videos of you riding before you're allowed to sit on a horse. But ultimately the responsibility for ensuring horse and rider are a good fit rests with the buyer. The seller knows more about the horse and maybe can refuse to sell if it's obvious that it's not a good match, but the individual has to take the bulk of the accountability.
I don't include, of course, horses with undisclosed vices in this. I am talking about a good seller who has disclosed all relevant information.
We see it all the time at the riding school that people overstate their ability. Either they genuinely think they are as good as they say (in which case some self-reflection is needed) or they exaggerate to achieve some aim, such as being allowed to go hacking or join a jump lesson. I'm sure it's the same with people buying horses. Plus sometimes our ability with a familiar horse is very different to our ability on an unfamiliar horse. I'm certainly far more confident on my horse than I am on any other.
When I bought my first horse all those years ago the seller did everything right. She didn't work him before I got there, she rode first but not for too long and then she watched me ride. I'd had recent surgery so couldn't do much, so she got references from my instructor to make sure I wasn't a novice. When I called to make an offer she checked I wasn't likely to grow any taller, asked what it was about him that made me want to buy, asked where I would be keeping him and what his lifestyle would be, before finally agreeing to sell him to me. Even then I had a rough teething period at the beginning, but thankfully had people around me who had been through it all before and knew that we were just getting to know each other and he was getting used to a much busier environment. Without that I can see how people panic and return horses in that initial settling in period. I was lucky when I bought my second horse, because I bought him from the riding school and had ridden him for weeks so knew exactly what I was getting.
when I was buying my first horse I wanted to buy every horse I tried; thankfully my instructor and my yard owner watched videos and steered me away from the unsound, unsuitable or uninspiring
I think it would be great if there were a move away buying unseen now the market is calming down. It should mean horses and riders are better matched and we have fewer stories of horses bouncing from home to home and dealer to dealer.
The market isn't as hot now, but that attitude it harder to shake off.
In reality, most of us should not be buying ridden horses unseen or untried. Not only from the point of view of whether the horse is the right fit safety-wise, but also whether we will enjoy riding the horse.
I stable at a riding school and have ridden the vast majority of their horses at some point. There are some that look absolutely beautiful to ride but feel very different. They are incredibly well-schooled, so it's not that, but their canter might be bone rattling, their sitting trot is very bouncy, they prefer to be ridden with a hand position different to the one I have etc. If you saw my horse going you'd think he's a comfy ride but he's actually incredibly bouncy to the point of some people wobbling off. You don't know that unless you try.
It's not necessarily a question of ability, although that is a factor of course.
I have bought youngsters unseen but with the view that if they don't grow into what I want I will have to sell them as what they are. That's much easier to accept when you've paid foal prices and not 8 year old prices.
A good dealer will discuss your riding ability, ambitions, use of the horse etc. An even better one will request videos of you riding before you're allowed to sit on a horse. But ultimately the responsibility for ensuring horse and rider are a good fit rests with the buyer. The seller knows more about the horse and maybe can refuse to sell if it's obvious that it's not a good match, but the individual has to take the bulk of the accountability.
I don't include, of course, horses with undisclosed vices in this. I am talking about a good seller who has disclosed all relevant information.
We see it all the time at the riding school that people overstate their ability. Either they genuinely think they are as good as they say (in which case some self-reflection is needed) or they exaggerate to achieve some aim, such as being allowed to go hacking or join a jump lesson. I'm sure it's the same with people buying horses. Plus sometimes our ability with a familiar horse is very different to our ability on an unfamiliar horse. I'm certainly far more confident on my horse than I am on any other.
When I bought my first horse all those years ago the seller did everything right. She didn't work him before I got there, she rode first but not for too long and then she watched me ride. I'd had recent surgery so couldn't do much, so she got references from my instructor to make sure I wasn't a novice. When I called to make an offer she checked I wasn't likely to grow any taller, asked what it was about him that made me want to buy, asked where I would be keeping him and what his lifestyle would be, before finally agreeing to sell him to me. Even then I had a rough teething period at the beginning, but thankfully had people around me who had been through it all before and knew that we were just getting to know each other and he was getting used to a much busier environment. Without that I can see how people panic and return horses in that initial settling in period. I was lucky when I bought my second horse, because I bought him from the riding school and had ridden him for weeks so knew exactly what I was getting.
when I was buying my first horse I wanted to buy every horse I tried; thankfully my instructor and my yard owner watched videos and steered me away from the unsound, unsuitable or uninspiring
I think it would be great if there were a move away buying unseen now the market is calming down. It should mean horses and riders are better matched and we have fewer stories of horses bouncing from home to home and dealer to dealer.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
That's very sad.
Cloball
Well-Known Member
I couldn't get mine to come, I took my dad and my husband mostly to make sure I didn't get kidnapped in remote locations and had someone to drive me home if I got decked
my dad was quite useful he has a calming demeanor on people and animals and is very pragmatic, husband was less so. I sent my instructor videos and pics of me riding the horses I viewed.Annagain
Well-Known Member
After my dad and husband had a 7 hour round trip to collect me from hospital in Portsmouth and drive my car home after a really silly fall trying a potential new horse (I thought he was going to stop at the jump, he decided to do it at the last second) I was banned from going further than an hour away. I did take a friend with me but she can't drive. I was not popular - especially when I said it was just a silly fall and I did want the horse. I think my OH was going to explode so I had to say no to himI couldn't get mine to come, I took my dad and my husband mostly to make sure I didn't get kidnapped in remote locations and had someone to drive me home if I got decked
.
Cloball
Well-Known Member
I went to 2 local ones without anyone 
one my YO knew already and one I didn't even get on and was quite convinced was a bit dodge. The plan was always to go back with instructor for second viewing... Which never happened.
one my YO knew already and one I didn't even get on and was quite convinced was a bit dodge. The plan was always to go back with instructor for second viewing... Which never happened.
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
Going back to the original question, I think yes, both buyers and sellers have a moral obligation to get a good match .... an obligation to the HORSE they are buying or selling!
eahotson
Well-Known Member
After one purchase without sensible guidance I made myself a rule that I never went horse shopping without my instructor.I also made it plain that she had the casting vote,if she said no it was no.It saved me a lot of heart ache.To facilitate this though I never considered anything more than 2 hours away and in fact my last 2 were a out 1 to 1 and a half away.After my dad and husband had a 7 hour round trip to collect me from hospital in Portsmouth and drive my car home after a really silly fall trying a potential new horse (I thought he was going to stop at the jump, he decided to do it at the last second) I was banned from going further than an hour away. I did take a friend with me but she can't drive. I was not popular - especially when I said it was just a silly fall and I did want the horse. I think my OH was going to explode so I had to say no to him
Annagain
Well-Known Member
My favourite instructor actually lives about 90 minutes away from me - she travels down to our area about once a month. When I went to see Wig he was at a sales livery yard about 10 mins from her and I asked her if she could come but she was already booked up - judging dressage at a venue 10 minutes from me! He had done a lot of riding club stuff so I asked her if he was familiar to her but he was in one of the few clubs she doesn't teach for and seemed to only have competed on days or in classes she wasn't judging!
As it happened, as it was the hottest day in history (literally), I went to try him at 7am, so she could have made it and still judged the dressage but I'd already got my friend, who was an exceptionally good rider, to agree to come with me. She was ready to get on for me but having watched the seller ride him, I just knew he was the one. I was more than happy to get on him before her and frankly, once I was on, I didn't want to get off and let her steal any of my time with him. I can still remember the giant sigh of relief when she asked me how I felt on him and I just said "safe". I hadn't felt that for 2 years. She still hasn't had a sit on him.
As it happened, as it was the hottest day in history (literally), I went to try him at 7am, so she could have made it and still judged the dressage but I'd already got my friend, who was an exceptionally good rider, to agree to come with me. She was ready to get on for me but having watched the seller ride him, I just knew he was the one. I was more than happy to get on him before her and frankly, once I was on, I didn't want to get off and let her steal any of my time with him. I can still remember the giant sigh of relief when she asked me how I felt on him and I just said "safe". I hadn't felt that for 2 years. She still hasn't had a sit on him
.maya2008
Well-Known Member
Then there are the buyers who do not follow the warnings by the seller about management.
Son’s 12.2hh was sold with the warning that she needs constant work, to a home who said they would compete her a lot. They gave her ‘time to settle in’ then bought a saddle that didn’t fit and she quickly became dangerous on the ground.
Here, we have found their warning to be very true. Tired from long hacks isn’t enough, she needs to jump once a week to be happy. Keep her as she needs and she’s so lovely. She was friendly and happy today after yesterday’s jumping session - I even got a sweet cuddle! Yesterday morning she was cross, pushy and bored.
I sent one on loan once with dire warnings about feeding her alfalfa. Guess what the girl fed her? Back she came in a right state, stressed out of her mind. Just why?
Son’s 12.2hh was sold with the warning that she needs constant work, to a home who said they would compete her a lot. They gave her ‘time to settle in’ then bought a saddle that didn’t fit and she quickly became dangerous on the ground.
Here, we have found their warning to be very true. Tired from long hacks isn’t enough, she needs to jump once a week to be happy. Keep her as she needs and she’s so lovely. She was friendly and happy today after yesterday’s jumping session - I even got a sweet cuddle! Yesterday morning she was cross, pushy and bored.
I sent one on loan once with dire warnings about feeding her alfalfa. Guess what the girl fed her? Back she came in a right state, stressed out of her mind. Just why?
lme
Well-Known Member
I think LECs point 1) was why I struggled lat time I bought a horse. I had a decent budget but couldn't find a well bred 5 or 6yo that hadn't done age classes or been produced as a competition horse. Producers want to maximize value and producing a well bred horse as a nice safe allrounder won't do that. In the end I gave up and bought a 4yo that we've brought on ourselves.
misst
Well-Known Member
Many years ago a parent with more money than sense (a horrible arrogant man) bought his 15yo daughter a horse and brought it to the yard we were on at the time. A 5yo 16hh flashy WB who came from a very very well known local dressage rider. He arrived in an equally flashy new lorry. He'd been backed and treated and ridden by professionals all his life. He arrived on a tatty but safe DIY yard full of kids and teenagers. The girl was tall and strong but had had very few lessons and had ridden one xc course. She was about to join PC.
Day 1 he put her mother in hospital, she was leading him to the field, the horse "wanted to trot" so the lady ran along the track with him, she was found unconcious on the track. Week 2 girl goes to turn him out comes back from field with a bad facial injury from a kick. By this time no one on the yard wanted to help them and the idea of sending him back was poo pooed. We were apparently just jealous. PC instructor wasn't keen on him unsurprisingly. Trainers suggested he be sent back. After another handling accident he was sent to a dealer to be sold. They then bought a very suitable horse who was amazing but my goodness the rider who sold a novice family with no experience at all a highly strung WB as a first horse should have been shot! How no one was killed is a miracle. The horse was probably much happier elsewhere too! A tatty DIY yard must have been a nightmare for him.
The man always insisted his kids were much better at absolutely everything than anyone else and threw money and bombast at any problems.
The dressage rider is still out there compteting at a high level nationally. I guess if you just want to sell the horse and make money you don't care about the safety of horse or rider.
Day 1 he put her mother in hospital, she was leading him to the field, the horse "wanted to trot" so the lady ran along the track with him, she was found unconcious on the track. Week 2 girl goes to turn him out comes back from field with a bad facial injury from a kick. By this time no one on the yard wanted to help them and the idea of sending him back was poo pooed. We were apparently just jealous. PC instructor wasn't keen on him unsurprisingly. Trainers suggested he be sent back. After another handling accident he was sent to a dealer to be sold. They then bought a very suitable horse who was amazing but my goodness the rider who sold a novice family with no experience at all a highly strung WB as a first horse should have been shot! How no one was killed is a miracle. The horse was probably much happier elsewhere too! A tatty DIY yard must have been a nightmare for him.
The man always insisted his kids were much better at absolutely everything than anyone else and threw money and bombast at any problems.
The dressage rider is still out there compteting at a high level nationally. I guess if you just want to sell the horse and make money you don't care about the safety of horse or rider.
iknowmyvalue
Well-Known Member
I think another factor is when people overestimate their, or their child’s, ability. So what on paper, sounds like a good match may be totally unsuitable in reality. This is less of a problem if not buying unseen, but being able to competently try a horse in their home environment is very different to sitting spooks or dealing with the unexpected…
I was selling a big 16.3hh IDX a few years ago, he’d hunted with me and a teenage boy but he was extremely strong (this was clearly stated in the advert), had an agent repeatedly calling me wanting a man in his 70s to try him for hunting. I felt allowing that to go ahead would have been a huge mistake, and I’d have felt responsible for my whole life if anything had happened. I told her on the phone that if a fit and strong, 6ft, 18yo boy found him strong, I didn’t think her client who wanted to canter along at the back was going to be suitable! Yet I still got repeated phone calls and messages!
Said horse was not sold to a hunting home, and as far as I know was still pottering around dressage and polework clinics 3yrs after I sold him to a much more suitable setup
I was selling a big 16.3hh IDX a few years ago, he’d hunted with me and a teenage boy but he was extremely strong (this was clearly stated in the advert), had an agent repeatedly calling me wanting a man in his 70s to try him for hunting. I felt allowing that to go ahead would have been a huge mistake, and I’d have felt responsible for my whole life if anything had happened. I told her on the phone that if a fit and strong, 6ft, 18yo boy found him strong, I didn’t think her client who wanted to canter along at the back was going to be suitable! Yet I still got repeated phone calls and messages!
Said horse was not sold to a hunting home, and as far as I know was still pottering around dressage and polework clinics 3yrs after I sold him to a much more suitable setup