Selling a horse that has had KS OP

[Bustergirl]

I have a horse in my yard for an owner that would now like to sell him. Last July he had a KS op where they cut the ligaments between vertebrae under sedation. He was only 6 at the time and has now completed his rehab work and is ready to compete again at 100 and then Novice. So I'm wanting to know if anyone has sold a horse that has had a KS op and what would be its value?
He is now 7, qualified for BYEH final as a 4 year old, placed in 100 as a 5 year old and also in a Novice. I did not have this horse on the yard or know it before it had its Op so can only judge it now.
Any experience of sales after KS op would be appreciated to relay to the owner

 

[wench]

This one may possibly be saleable as has a least got some competing history. However I doubt you'd get much for it, and could be a long time before it sells

 

[be positive]

I have no experience of KS but would think that the best way forward for the owners would be to prove the horse can compete and get it out ASAP then if it goes well think about the value and putting it up for sale, it may be ready to compete but until it actually has I am not sure many people will pay sensible money on a gamble that has done nothing since it was 5, they have taken it this far they may as well run it a few times and if all goes well selling should be easier.

 

[Bustergirl]

Yes it is going to run in next couple of weeks so if this went ok what would its value be then, it is fairly valueless at the moment as unproven but even once competed what then as have no idea as have not had a KS horse post op let alone sold one. I nearly fell off the chair when the owner said what they wanted but have no base evidence for value

 

[be positive]

I have no idea of it's value but can imagine with the previous form the owners are expecting £££s and may not be realistic in that the value will have dropped considerably in the last 18 months or so since it went round the novices it would have been very valuable at that point, that said if it comes back to it's best it may still go on but whether anyone will pay good money until it really proves itself is anyone's guess, like any injury until it has been fully tested it could go wrong at any time.
There is also the insurance cover, or lack of, to consider it could have numerous exclusions which will be off putting to purchasers, you may be able to keep it for a while and enjoy competing until it finds a new home.

 

[popsdosh]

It will probably be valueless at any stage even if it competes successfully as who knows when the issue may return.

 

[Bustergirl]

I did have a client buy an advanced horse that had been on junior team that had vertabrae removed, I know how much they paid but that is a niche market with very proven record but want to here from anyone sold a quality but unproven horse 100- novice level if a person exists

 

[WellyBaggins]

I think if you can get him out again there will be a market I have seen one advertised ATM who is asking a normal amount of money for a horse running at 100 level it will just be a smaller market, having had a horse who has had KS surgery I would not be put off but a lot of people might. Is it a TB as this will affect value also, good luck

 

[DollyPentreath]

I don't think it will be 'valueless', maybe to some people but if you can get him out and if he does well then there will be someone out there looking for a comp horse on a budget, willing to take a risk (esp if you have a positive outlook from a vet?). Assuming you only do 100 level and he goes well (if he's qualified BYEH I imagine he's a well put together, nice stamp) then I imagine you'd advertise at the 2-3k mark and see how you go. If he does well at N you can prob up that 1-2k. Rough figures I know but people are very driven by BE results, a win at N will put a very different value on to an average 100 result!

 

[stencilface]

If he's out competing it might not affect the price too much, depending on his type etc. If he's safe and sensible and suitable for an amateur then that's pretty important. My friends horse post KS OP has gone from novice to advanced in 3 years, and will be aiming at 3* this year or next. Dressage isn't his forte, but that might be down to just him!!

 

[cptrayes]

I have one who has had the same operation. I think the problem is that there is no track record of horses with this particular operation returning to the level of competition that they were at before. It's a new operation, relatively, and it is believed to work at least partially by denerving.

It's well known that denerving in other areas of the body is often not permanent, and until it is established that this is a permanent cure, anyone who really understands the condition and the operation would be unlikely to pay much money for him.

I am guessing that the horse will also be uninsurable for not only its back, but a minimum of all sacroiliac issues and hind leg lameness, and possibly all four legs.

 

[popsdosh]

I have one who has had the same operation. I think the problem is that there is no track record of horses with this particular operation returning to the level of competition that they were at before. It's a new operation, relatively, and it is believed to work at least partially by denerving.

It's well known that denerving in other areas of the body is often not permanent, and until it is established that this is a permanent cure, anyone who really understands the condition and the operation would be unlikely to pay much money for him.

I am guessing that the horse will also be uninsurable for not only its back, but a minimum of all sacroiliac issues and hind leg lameness, and possibly all four legs.

That would then make the horse useless for BE as any form of denerving is forbidden.

 

[cptrayes]

That would then make the horse useless for BE as any form of denerving is forbidden.

I agree with you that it's an issue. I'm not sure the authorities understand that this particular operation denerves. I have written confirmation that my own horse can compete BD again when he is ready.

It would seem a bit unfair though, if horses with the dorsal process completely removed (and the nerves along with them off course) can compete and those with a ligament slice can't.

There is a difference, too, in that the denerving in this case allows the process to move apart and the problem stops. In hoof and psd denerving, the effect is to remove the pain and the problem continues but can't be felt.

 

[Broodle]

In addition to what cptrayes has said, another issue is that horses that have had this op need to be kept in work so that their back muscles stay in shape. Time off (because of owner's circumstances or horse having an unrelated lameness) may take the ks issues back to square one. This is what I was told by my vet when considering the op, and tallies with the published advice from the vet who pioneered the op. Future owners would need to be aware.

No idea about market value, sorry, but the above would make it valueless to me (and probably many/most other rc/grassroots one horse owners). Sorry to be negative!

 

[Bustergirl]

Thanks guys some really intetesting comments and advice anymore Would be appreciated as I dont know an awful lot about prognosis etc as wasnt involved in original diagnosis with vet

 

[DonkeyClub]

There is absolutely no de- nerving in KS op's and they've been doing this operation for as long as colic surgery has been around. There are many success stories of horses returning to a high level of competition and doing well, just as equally as there are many bad stories.

 

[Booboos]

There is absolutely no de- nerving in KS op's and they've been doing this operation for as long as colic surgery has been around. There are many success stories of horses returning to a high level of competition and doing well, just as equally as there are many bad stories.

I think you may be referring to the old style operation, not the new style which originated very recently in France and is now offered at Cotts in the UK (as well as other practices by now I imagine).

OP there is no way of knowing other than letting the market determine the value. Get as many points as possible on the horse, get confirmation from BE that he can compete despite the op, decide on a price and see what happens. If the price is too high you'll know about it very quickly. If it's too low then you'll get a lot of interested buyers.

 

[Bustergirl]

I obviously dont want to look silly as a professional advertising a horse for way over what people would pay as it is my reputation and also dont want an inexperienced owner to be disillusioned about its value post op. So if it is competing again at Novice level happily for atleast half a season do you think people would baulk at 5k? This is very much lower than owners thoughts at present time not having competed at all!

 

[Bustergirl]

Im also thinking about a lease scenario then owner gets money but leaser is not committed long term? Not sure owner would be keen but just musing with options

 

[BeckyC]

I dont know enough about the new procedure for KS but I have a horse that had the old surgery for KS since ive had him and he's such an angel I would have bought him after the surgery anyway. It does lower the price but definitely still a market i think. I saw this advert on the BE website which may help you http://www.britisheventing.com/classifieds/Details.aspx?pid=6005&?page=3&colour=

 

[cptrayes]

In addition to what cptrayes has said, another issue is that horses that have had this op need to be kept in work so that their back muscles stay in shape. Time off (because of owner's circumstances or horse having an unrelated lameness) may take the ks issues back to square one. This is what I was told by my vet when considering the op, and tallies with the published advice from the vet who pioneered the op. Future owners would need to be aware.

No idea about market value, sorry, but the above would make it valueless to me (and probably many/most other rc/grassroots one horse owners). Sorry to be negative!

I have been told the same, which is why my horses current layoff due to a skull fracture is extremely worrying. The operation still has repercussions even if the horse is well when it is bought.


I would say that the right amount would be about 50% of the value it would have been, but I don't insure, and it may be worth much less than that to someone who insures.

I think leasing, pending it proving itself over, say, two years, would be a very good idea.

 

[cptrayes]

There is absolutely no de- nerving in KS op's and they've been doing this operation for as long as colic surgery has been around. There are many success stories of horses returning to a high level of competition and doing well, just as equally as there are many bad stories.

Nerves run between one process and the next, in the gap between the two. In removing the process, the nerve is also removed. In slicing the ligament instead, the nerve is also sliced.

Both operations denerve, but the process removal is so very invasive that no-one mentions the denerving, it's just a small side issue.

And the gap left is so huge that rejoining is presumably completely impossible.

With the ligament slice, no-one knows yet; the operation is too new. There are times I wish that I had opted for the process removal instead, because I have to admit this preys on my mind a bit.

I am personally unaware of a single horse which has gained affiliated points after the ligament operation. I'd love to hear about them if anyone knows one .

 

[TarrSteps]

I would agree, the horse needs to be out competing. If it's winning then I think you will have more luck getting a workable amount for it but I do think your clients should disabuse themselves of the notion they will get top money or even what the same horse would be worth without the op. As you said yourself, this is not the same situation as an older, proven horse on the downward curve.

If the horse is average or even tricky then they will have a harder time. I know you're contracted to sell the horse but at the end of the day it's their horse and they accepted the risk of depreciation when they bought it.

I'll be honest, the two horses I've known sold post op brought a fraction of the price they would have otherwise.

I've done 'lease to own' deals for horses with questionable vettings before and had it work out well BUT I was confident the horses were going to be fine and it was in a culture much more used to lease deals.

I think you have to have a real sit down with the owners. Do you want to be involved in a deal where the sellers have unreasonable expectations and are unwilling to invest in competing the horse to prove its worth?

Re BE status. The only way you will know for sure is to ask. I would bet you no one has asked the question because they are afraid of the answer!

 

[DonkeyClub]

Not sure the de nerving is correct at all as it's only excess bone that is removed- perhaps a vet could clarify this?

Re horses that have been successful at top level, there are many examples, but it's not made public knowledge- one example would be Chase the Melody - an advanced event horse that got top ten placings at 3 star level in the late 90's/ 00's following a KS operation . ( can see a noticeable improvement on his SJ results post op) This was public knowledge as the operation was well documented in Sue Bensons ( his owner) monthly 'diary' in eventing magazine at the time. As Sue was designing CCI courses at the time I think there would have been an uproar if her horse had been eventing with a denerved back! So I'm sure that these operations did not involve any kind of de nerving- there must be a new/different procedure out there.

 

[TarrSteps]

I believe the discussion is.re the relatively recent procedure of ligament resection.

The fact is there won't be a lot of hard data about long term prognosis because no one is collecting it. It also depends on how you define the terms. I recently read up on a popular procedure people have a lot of faith in. The success rate was 60% and was defined as a return to ridden work within 3 months. (No discussion of how horses had been rehabbed or treated in other ways.) Anecdotal evidence is worth very little in terms of hard questions like determining value.

Re rules, they always lag behind practice. If you want to use the definition of nerves cut during surgery then surely something like splint bone removal would count, too? I'm not saying the subject won't/shouldn't be addressed, just that it's actually quite a complicated conversation.

Anyway, in this case, in lieu of a specific decision, perception is the first issue.

 

[cptrayes]

Not sure the de nerving is correct at all as it's only excess bone that is removed- perhaps a vet could clarify this?

Re horses that have been successful at top level, there are many examples, but it's not made public knowledge- one example would be Chase the Melody - an advanced event horse that got top ten placings at 3 star level in the late 90's/ 00's following a KS operation . ( can see a noticeable improvement on his SJ results post op) This was public knowledge as the operation was well documented in Sue Bensons ( his owner) monthly 'diary' in eventing magazine at the time. As Sue was designing CCI courses at the time I think there would have been an uproar if her horse had been eventing with a denerved back! So I'm sure that these operations did not involve any kind of de nerving- there must be a new/different procedure out there.

Would you agree that if you amputate a person's foot, you denerve the toes?

You can't remove a spinal process without also severing the nerve that connects it to the next one, and allows it to feel the pain of the two clashing together.

 

[cptrayes]

I think the crucial point that you are missing DC, is that in the old established operation of process removal, the pain is removed because the bone is removed, not because the nerve is removed.

In the banned denerving operations, the pain would still be there if the nerve was there. The underlying problem has not been removed.

As far as I know, post rehab evidence is not being collected for the new ligament operation. I think it is possible that in some horses the pain would still exist if the nerve did. But it's so new that no-one in authority has caught up with it yet. When they do, I think it's a possibility that unless you can show x rays with clear space between the processes, horses which have had the ligament resection, and not the process removal or newer process shaving, will not be allowed to compete affiliated.

It'll be darned difficult to tell though. My own horse has no scarring at all.

 

[Bustergirl]

They are happy to pay for it to compete to prove itself that isn't an issue but I know longer term they want to get out of ownership so need to have an idea about the market acceptance of this as it may also impact on the way we campaign him. Really interesting about having to keep them in work for back strength I will keep this in mind. Hes a lovely horse so im hoping he now gets to show his potential either with us or a new owner

 

[cptrayes]

I really would recommend them to write to BE and get a specific agreement in writing that this horse by name is allowed to compete after a ligament resection. Then if anything changes in future rules, he should not be barred. I did this for mine with BD.

It will remove one reason for people to turn him down.