selling my beloved pony gone wrong...help!!!

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flyawaynik

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hi all,
just wondered if anyone can give me any advice?
Around a month and a half ago i sold my beloved welsh pony who i have owned for nearly 2 years. We did everything together - showing, hunting, riding club, show jumped, dressage etc. and he has always lived with my other horses which over this period has changed a bit (due to having friends horses to stay on holiday, and anothers on loan etc) both mares and geldings. I have NEVER had any issues with him hes always been fab, and particularly the one horse i would put in with anything as he never cares.

Anyway due to new work commitments and financial reasons I had to sell him. this broke my heart but it was the practical thing to do unfortunately. I sold him to a lovely lady and her family who wanted him for pony club and for the daughter to play with- which i thought would be brilliant for him. I mentioned when i sold him the only time he gets a little grumpy is when food is involved, but just the same as most horses i know (ears back grumpy face) so i told her to feed him seperately.

Anyway a month passed and they loved him until i recieved a phone call saying he had "attacked" the ladys mare and had he done it before. obviously i was very confused and replied no. as like i said hes always been fine with mine and others. another week passed and she then said he had attacked her whilst she was feeding him.

I came to see what was going on as this is SOOOOO out of character for him and sure enough he ran down the field at me but then stopped when he realised i wasnt going anywhere. i worked on the ground with him for 15 mins also and he was absolutley fine!!

they are now trying to take me to court and said i sold them a dangerous horse.... which he IS NOT. and anyway how am i supposed to predict his behavior in a new environment???? how do i know what has gone on to make him behave in this way a month and a half into the purchase????

im deeply hurt and upset by this and if i had the money would take him back in a second. as im worried for his welfare.

any thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated, thankyou very very much
 
i'd hve a chat with a solicitor to get some real advice. porr you its sounds an awful situations. when i sold my mare i put her issues in writing and got the new owner to sign two copies, one for her and one for me. hope it sorts itself out for you xx
 
sorry i meant to say she is trying to say i said he is great with mares and gelding (which he always has been and always been turned out with) and he is great to handle (which he always has been) when he is in fact neither. im so stuck... hes never done this before and im not in the position to give a rfund or have the horse back. Im worried about going to court for obvious financial reasons but i dont see how she has a case??? thankyou
 
thankyou very much, you see i had no issues with him, so i wouldnt have thught to put any! iv got a reciept both myself and her have signed describing him and saying sold as seen having passed a five stage vetting too.
 
Tricky, but in your favour, you have gone up to see him and these new issues and not done the old not answering the phone trick.

Patches has had experience of this through a friend but it didn't turn out well for the honest owner/seller
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Can you get any witnesses to state he wasn't a problem when you had him? I loaned a pony out whose behaviour changed quite markedly when he got new company and became quite a silly pain. Got him back home and he was his old self. I wonder if they aren't being firm enough with him?

Do let us know how you get on.
 
thankyou for your support. yes i have a list at the moment of around 20 plus people that knew him and saw him at home and out at shows etc. proffesional people that u know wouldnt be worth them loosing their rep over i.e. head instructor of pony club, vets, riding club officials, hunt staff etc.
I myself am a pony club instructor and freelance and work locally riding and breaking racehorses, so again it is not in my proffesional interest to sell a dodgy horse! and i deal with lots of difficult horses daily with reagrd to racers- AND HE IS NOT ONE! lol is anybody a soliciter or has knowledge of the law at all. thanks for comments again
 
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sorry i meant to say she is trying to say i said he is great with mares and gelding (which he always has been and always been turned out with) and he is great to handle (which he always has been) when he is in fact neither. im so stuck... hes never done this before and im not in the position to give a rfund or have the horse back. Im worried about going to court for obvious financial reasons but i dont see how she has a case??? thankyou

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I have very limited experience of this due to a case involving a very good friend of mine who sold her pony in 2007. Hopefully she will come on later and give you more details about her case.

She advertised her accurately and the buyer was happy that she was suitable, having tried her out etc.

Same as you, the new owner made contact to say the pony wasn't as described...namely they said they couldn't hack her out alone (when she had done with my friend for the two years they'd owned her).

She took my friend to court. The upshot is that the judge didn't give two hoots what the pony was like prior to sale, only what she was like with the new owner. My friend lost her case, had to pay costs, have the pony back and also pay for the woman's upkeep of said pony for the six months it took for the case to come to court.

My friend collected the horse, which hadn't been ridden in ages, tacked her up and hacked her away ALONE from the woman's yard. She won the moral victory, even if she lost the court battle.

Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) does not stand in a case, even for private sales, when there is a dispute over fit for purpose or being sold "as described". My friend's case was lost because the sale advert said "hacks alone/company" and the new owners story that she wouldn't hack alone was taken over our own testimonies to the contrary. The judge wasn't interested in how different handling/feeding etc can affect a horse's temperament either. It was just a straight her word against my friend's.

I feel for you, but please do not assume that the buyer has no case because I'm afraid to have to inform you that she most probably does.
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EDITED TO ADD MORE
However, having read a few more of your replies......

Do you have lots of videos of the horse? Some where he is being handled in the field, led by children (always a good one) etc etc?

They would help your case I'm sure. Make sure you put them on to a DVD/CD that can be played in court. We had a video of my friend's horse (if I recall) but didn't think to take anything to court with us that would play the footage....wrongly assuming they'd have something there to view it with (well they do when you watch the court dramas on tv).



 
Well, that impressive CV should stand you in good stead! I'd buy one off you
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For his sake can you offer to have him back somehow and re-sell him on a contract type of basis to show you have good faith in him?

How big is he and where are you?
 
hes beautiful, hes 14.1hh and im in suffolk. god i just feel so upset now... im screwed.

thats awful about your friend patches. so in future when we sell horses we should say NOTHING about them in the eyes of that judge. what if we bouht a horse and it suddenly didnt jump having had it for a couple of years etc cuold we then go bak to the seller and have them for it?? what a scary world we live in.

also though is it still correct as he has been fine for a month and a half and then suddenly started this behaviiour. cos obviously i could completely understand where she was coming from had this happened straight away after purchase. but all this time after?? showing that the behaviour wasnt already there.

i just wish things were different :'(
 
i have LOTS of pictures of him in the field with my other horses. but no videos unfortunately. i also have all vets records of him and my others since having him proving he has never hurt any of them.
 
have they actually asked for their money back or you to take the horse back? I wonder if you did this it may help later in court if she declines at least you can say i did offer to do X, Y or Z and she declined. The judge may look on it favourably.
 
It does sound like an awful situation. A girl on my last hard had someone try to return a horse a year after purchase! So 6 weeks doesn't sound that long. Are you a BHS gold member? (£50 or £60 for the year) There is a legal advice helpline, which is very handy. Used them before and it's cheaper than an inital solicitors fees. Good luck, I hope it gets sorted without going to court!
 
God, what an awful situation. I think it's awful that people can so this these days to be honest. Of course a horse's behaviour can change and welsh ponies/horses are renowned for being pretty intelligent and soon work out who's in charge!

People seem to forget they are buying an animal not a car and expect it to do exactly as it says on the tin! Have they had any problems riding wise or just on the ground? If only on the ground then i would put it purely down to them not showing their authority over it. It would be a different matter if said horse was rearing/bolting etc when they were on.

Also, just because it has got on perfectly well with your horses doesn't mean it will necessarily gel with another. It may do after a longer period of time but some horses just do not get on and some just take a long time to work out their pecking order.

I wish people would just understand a little more about horse behaviour sometimes and not automatically blame whoever's sold it to them. We bought a 12hh pony many years ago for my sister (then 7) and the sellers never told us the pony actually hated small children and would attack them - yep run at them teeth bared when in the field (maybe he'd not done it with them) - my sister found this out early on and I still can see it now her running away from this scrawny little pony screaming her head off! lol.

We wouldn't have even considered returning him to be honest, we just got firm with him and he was actually a great pony when on board - you wouldn't go near him when he was eating though!! hehe

I really hope this doesn't end up going to court - def seek some legal advice. I def think the fact they had him a month and all was well would work in your favour anyway. Sounds like he's found his feet and has decided to try his hoof at dominance that's the crux of it. He needs to learn he is not top dog (horse!).

Best of luck!
 
unfortunatly people dont tend to listen when they buy a horse, they stand there nodding away, but i swear they are thinking yeah yeah bla bla i know better.

i had the same with my mare, shes a cow in every sence but a very talented comp horse.

i sold her, on amonths trial (as much as i dont want to keep her i will always protect her future as shes so difficult.) any way, i spent a long time with the new owners, i put the mare in all the positions where i knew she would react badley so they could see her at the worst, then when i delivered her, id written pages of how to handle her.. dos and donts.. basically it was a case of listen or get kicked in the head.

i also told them not to do to much with her at 1st as it would blow her brain.

4 days later i get a call telling me to go and get her as shes had reared and flipped out.
it turned out they had taken her x country schooling then for a gallop.. exactley what i told them not to do.

i had the mare home and gave all their money back

if you cant afford to do this, and you actually think they are the right people for your chap, id offer to go and work with them more to sort the issues out.

or explaine that you cannot afford to buy him back, but if they are happy to pay livery you will take him back to resell for them,

JUST in case it goes to court, put it all in writting and keep a copy. it will go to show how much you tried and how genuine you were about the horse.
 
I am really sorry to hear what you are going through.

For what it's worth, i was once in a kind of similar situation when my horse went to stay with a friend when i went on holiday. We used to be at the same yard together and shared a field etc.

Anyway, aparently there was some incident in the field and she said that my horse kicked hers. He pony was badly injured and due to its age and the fact she didn't have it insured she had it pts. My horse had a hoof mark on her bum but was ok. Anyway, she took me to court for cost for the horse.

She had to prove that i have been negligent, i.e that i knew my horse was a kicker before she went to stay with her. This is very hard to prove (even harder when she has never kicked anything else in her life!) Basically it was thrown out of court. The judge told her she would have to get proof that i knew she had kicked before, like a letter from my vet, farrier etc. Well she knew she couldn't so that was the end of it.

Hope that helps you in some way...

Hope it all works out for you, i know how stressful it is.
 
I think it can take a while for a pony to settle in a new home - it is probably something that the lady has done that was different that has upset the pony.

Perhaps she has not been feeding the pony separately or the pony is hungry and getting defensive about his food or he is just does not like the other horse. Some ponies who have been starved at some point in their lives or attacked when eating are very defensive around food. When the pony attacked the lady was she pestering the pony whilst he was eating - could he have thought she was going to take the food away from him?

My pony at my last yard was a bit of a monkey and I called the people who I bought him from and they said they never had any problems with him and I contemplated selling him. However I eventually moved yards as a last resort as it got so bad (though he never attacked me) and from day one at the new yard he was a very different pony so it was something at that yard I was at before that was causing the bad behaviour.

Ponies can be tricky as they can be both sensitive but need firm handling. Could be something at the new place is upsetting the pony - and that is not your fault. It can take a while for a pony to settle into a new place and it could be that he is trying to find his place in the "herd" and that is why he is attacking the mare or perhaps the mare has kicked him and he is now defensive. My pony when at the old yard was beaten up by another horse in the herd for three weeks before he was allowed to join in with the others and I think that was what caused the bad behaviour.

If they do take you to court then it could be expensive - if the pony is as you described it and it just the wrong environment for him could you take him back and resell him or do you think selling him could be a problem if he has developed a bad habit?
 
hi thankyou everyone.
well he never has been a problem! and iv even just rang his 2 owners before me who both like me said he was an angel. especially his last owner who turned him out with up to 10 other ponies at a time!so i think there is something he doesnt like at the new place. but that isnt me fault, this is what i cant get my head around...

im so upset. I just rang the lady to offer my help and time a couple of times a week unpaid etc (as its a fair drive from mine) which she refused. she was saying she will put him down. what have i done?!
 
OMG that's terrible! It seems like a very extreme reaction on her part. Can you offer to take him back for a lesser amount?
 
What a shame, how awful to be so worried about the pony and a possible court case. I would speak to a solicitor and use the info you got from patches to explain the problem to him on your initial meeting. I say this, because it is probable that he hasn't had to deal with this sort of thing before. Either that or if you have BHS membership you can get legal advice. If not, speak to your horse insurance company and see if they can suggest a suitable law firm that you could use.

Such a shame, I was jsut discussing this with a friend today, i was admiring her horse and she commented that he is great, no trouble, can do anything and take him anywhere. I said that that is because he is with her, or someone who has savvy around horses. If he was with someone who let him get away with stuff, he would be quite a different horse. Same sort of thing with your pony I think.

Also, a month is not time at all for a horse to settle in to new surroundings with new horses and people.
Could you not go down and ask to see what they are talking about and perhaps give them a wee lesson with him. oh, just read your last post. I doubt very much if they will put him down. Give them a day to calm down a bit and try again.

You haven't done anything wrong and I don't think he doesn't like anything there. I think that they are acting frightened of him and he is becoming top dog with them because they aren't standing up to him. Also, they haven't given him time to settle. He is in a new place and there is nobody there to trust as they are all beneath him in the pecking order.

They need to be sensible about this and accept your help.
 
That is terrible - it is strange as if you can help her fix the problem that that will solve the problem - maybe she does not want you to see what she is up to!

What does she want you to do?
 
I sold my horse 2years ago, i told the women that he Hated his mane being pulled, wouldnot hack out alone, be alone in the yard and you had to let him settle before touching him.

Well like said above people just dont listen!! i got a phone call less than 10hours later saying the horse had gone mad and was going to KILL the groom and the farrier! Not only had they got him home at 6pm and at 8am next morning started pulling his mane,while having the farrier (he had not had shoes on for well over a year!! they were told)

Anyway because i always say they can have a 2week trial even though i was private selling, i took him back and gave them their money,. The women said to me when delivering the horse "if you hadnt taken him back i would have had him shot"
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Im so glad i did take him back, there was nothing wrong with him, back seeing he came back lame i belive they more than likely tried jumping him and he didnt want to know, i did say let him settle for at least 3 days, but people just dont want to know. Half the time i think they think they know it all, when trust is they just DONT!!

It make me so mad and i feel so sorry for you and the pony,

ALL the best and GOOD LUCK!!
 
i sold my husbands horse.. total saint in all ways, the new owner even saw a car come up and hold hand on horn.. (i asked driver to do it)

yet 2 days later she tried to tell me the horse was a rearer and scared of traffic.

general opinion is shes pulling a fast one and wants her money back.
 
I agree with the above that something has gone wrong for her that isn't to do with the pony and now she wants her money back. The pts comment is ridiculous though, i'd have said 'well i will save you the trouble and have him back for free' Even grass livery somewhere would be better than him staying with them. Is that not possible?

Stupid woman.
 
It's very much in your favour, I think that you have two previous owners who had no problems with this horse.

Sadly, it happens time and time again. I spent 6 months getting a pony hackable alone and loaned him out for nearly 2 years after, when my circumstances changed. When the loaner wanted to return him, I decided to sell, telling prospective owners all about his history and giving the usual advice about not hacking alone for a while, walking him out alone before riding...when I got a buyer I even offered to go down there if they had problems and warned them not to ride for a few days/weeks, as he was nervy. Well, they rode him out the next day. Alone. Upshot is the cheeky b*tch and her lying father tried to get their money back from me, without telling me that they'd already sold him a week earlier, at vast profit, to a dealer, whilst simultaneously banding my name around the internet that I had sold them a dangerous horse that bolted (he never ever bolted!), was a dealer, had refused to take the horse back (complete lie, before I found out he'd been sold I arranged transport to go and get him - somebody on another forum filled me in that he'd been sold already and that they were pulling a fast one). They actually had the cheek to ask for money back, without telling me they'd sold the horse!

Sorry to say it put me off selling for life. I completely understand why people put horses to sleep rather than sell on. An awful thing to have to do, but if even your well behaved boy can turn into this poor confused creature, what chance do horses with previous issues have? Agree with above, people go through all the motions of agreeing to advice, nodding knowingly, then go home and think they know better, then get shirty when the horse proves them wrong.

Hope you get it sorted, OP. It would be very sad indeed if they carried out their threat. Is there anyone you know who could buy him on your behalf and you sell him again, to pay them back, or work off the money?
 
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