Selling, or rather, reserving in utero...........with provisos.

[Enfys]

Have any of you sold a foal in utero?
Did the buyer have any provisos?

Just asking as I have two people wanting the 2008 foal from my paint mare (by a palomino for what it's worth) by the palomino QH!!!!!! With provisos.

They both say they will only take the foal if it is a palomino, a palomino paint, or a sorrel paint but NOT if it is a solid chestnut.

One person only wants a filly, the other only wants a colt! So that's those bases covered then.

They are asking me for a price............how on earth do I put a value on an unborn foal by a stallion with no stock on the ground as an idea of what he could produce? .......he could throw five legged donkeys (God Forbid!) the mare is a maiden so she's no help.

I have refused to take a deposit from either person, as far as I am concerned, my word that they can have first refusal (if the sex and colour is right) is good enough and they are happy with that. They do know that another party is also interested.

But..........what if one, or both, change their minds, and if the colour is right they still want the foal. Would it be advisable to get something on paper along the lines of.........Person A/B, has first refusal of a filly/colt foal by QH out of APHA etc?

Even if everything is right and one person is happy with the foal and wants to buy it and pays for it, in full, on say, Day one, who has the say over when the foal is weaned? Them as the owner, or me, as the Breeder in the interest of the baby. Is this something that should be agreed in writing also?

It seems a minefield to me, and I have suggested that they should wait until the foal hits the ground safe and sound and they can purchase it at an appropriate age for weaning........Not acceptable, both parties want ownership of the foal, as soon as possible after birth.

Advice, opinions, experiences? Thankyou

 

[Tia]

Our foal born last week had a buyer the minute it was conceived. The buyer was not bothered about sex or colour, however I gave her 2 prices; if the foal was solid and if the foal was tobiano or palomino; the latter was double the price at weaning than if born a solid foal. She agreed to both prices and now that Breeze is on the ground, the figure has been set but I am accepting no money until closer to weaning.

The buyer came to see the foal being born and has been up a number of times to see her. She is very very pleased with her and although she wasn't bothered whether it was a filly or colt, she says she is thrilled to bits that Breeze was born a filly.

To price in-utero, you need to cover several price ranges; solid or paint, filly or colt. Check your bloodlines and have an inherant knowledge of how much value is placed on your horses particular bloodlines. A solid APHA is of no great value so you will really be hoping for palomino or paint.

If you don't know these people well then I would suggest some sort of contract. I knew my buyer would not back out so I had no need of a contract.....the only problem with not having one is that I hope I don't back out of the deal LOL!!

With Breeze, she will not be leaving or be weaned until I say so and no money will change hands until this event as I want to keep control over what happens to the foal whilst she is here and also make the decision when to wean her.

Breeze is a very highly bred filly therefore her value may or may not be similar to the value of yours; anyway her two prices when I "sold" her in-utero was 1,200 at weaning if she was solid (purely based on her superb bloodlines, had these not been so good then she would have been about 600) and 2,500 if she was palomino/tobiano. Thankfully she is palomino so her price is 2,500 at weaning or 3,500 as a yearling.

Did you have some figures in your head as to how much the foal might be worth?

 

[Enfys]

Thanks Tia,

That is helpful. I have absolutely no idea about the value at all. I can see that I will have to trawl a few sales sites for ideas. As I thought, a solid Paint would be worth far less than a coloured or a palomino.

The lady that wants a colt has also asked if I would allow her to breed a mare to Zeus, and wants a price on that too

I had no intention of using him on outside mares so hadn't thought about that.

Pedigrees:
www.allbreedpedigree.com/outlaws+robin+gold
www.allbreedpedigree.com/dashbardee+jet

 

[springfallstud]

I would maybe take a deposit or just assure them they can have first refusal but i am wary of selling an unborn foal, someone i know has done this and twice has loss the mare and foal during foaling...ok prob nothing to do with the fact the foal was sold but i am highly superstitious and dont like to tempt fate.

 

[springfallstud]

Sorry reread your post and you arnt taking money yet lol i have no idea how you price it, what do you think in your head the breeding lines should be worth?

 

[htobago]

I'm involved at the moment in helping to negotiate the in-utero sale of a Tobago foal!

I've never done this before, and had a pig of a time trying to persuade any of the breeders with mares in foal to him to sell, but finally one breeder with 3 mares in foal to him agreed to part with just one of them.

Fortunately, both the breeder and the buyer are exceptionally nice people and have been amazingly generous and kind to each other - so it has been a real pleasure to be involved in bringing them together.

Re 'provisos' - I asked around and apparently it is normal for the contract to stipulate that if the foal is born dead or dies before weaning, the sale is void and the deposit is returned. Same applies if the foal is deformed or unsound.

Other provisos can be included in the contract as well - such as yours about colour. But providing these conditions are met, the buyer cannot simply change their mind on a whim, or if the foal's quality doesn't quite live up to their expectations from its breeding. They are obliged to complete the purchase (usually at weaning) or lose their deposit.

The price of an in-utero foal is usually somewhat lower than one already born, to reflect the risk that the buyer is taking in buying 'unseen'. I think it's usually about 75% of the price the breeder would normally ask for the foal.

So although it is a bit risky, it can be a good way for a buyer to get hold of a very well-bred foal that they might otherwise struggle to afford. From the breeder's point of view, it is nice to have a 'guaranteed' sale - saves all the trouble and expense of advertising and so on.

IMO if the buyers start stipulating too many provisos and conditions, it becomes rather pointless - and not worth the breeder's while to sell in-utero.

Weaning should be at the discretion of the breeder - as it would be if one took a deposit on a newborn foal. The deposit secures the foal until weaning - it doesn't give the buyer the right to dictate timing of weaning. But best to include a statement to this effect in the contract if you are concerned about it.

 

[Tia]

I can't really help you with your stud fee price - you'd have to research prices of comparably bred stallions. I had a number of people wanting to make bookings for my guy however I turned them down as I didn't want outside mares running with him. Had I done so, the figure that I had in my mind was the same as these people were offering and it was 500 for a live foal (plus board costs). Once again this was purely because of his very rare bloodlines (and temperament) which aren't readily available in Canada, let alone over this side of Canada.

Zeus has the better breeding out of your two so I would base the price on similarly bred stallions prices, plus taking in mind the climate of the market in your area.

If you do take outside mares, make sure to check that they have had all their tests before you allow the mare on your premises. I presume the mares would run with your stallion, therefore you might want to make arrangements to accommodate her away from your other horses.

Htobago has made some very valid points too. Good luck Enfys!!

 

[Damien]

Hi

My outlook on selling in utero is, create a written agreement stipulating the terms and conditions of reservation to each person interested.

I would not request any form of deposit or payment however I would agree a price and request that this be paid in full at 31 days of age and request that the foal then be insured for the full sum of purchase by the buyer at their expense, thus should anything happen both the seller and the buyer do not loose financially. The insurance also covers any eventual accidents, surgical treatment or illness of the foal so everyone can sleep safely at night!

The reality is that in utero you have nothing to loose as even if everything goes pear shape with either of the buyers pulling out you still have plenty of time to find another home for him/her so would not request a deposit.

I disagree that the price should be lower however, the reason these people wish to reserve in utero is because the foal has something special that they desire, thus strike a happy agreement with the buyer before hand, the reality is that if that foal really is THAT desirable so much so they feel the need to reserve in utero then there are going to be lots of other people wanting the foal too, high demand increases the value of any foal.

Anyway this is how we sold one of our foals in utero this year and everyone has been happy all round with the agreement, and both parties are happy with the knowledge that the little one is insured and the buyer knows that should anything happen her finanical investment is secure.

Hope this helps.

 

[Enfys]

Thankyou everyone.

I am quite happy just to give people first refusal and leave it at that for now. Except........I will have to have some sort of contract/agreement that A wants a filly and B wants a colt, someone will be disappointed (both if it is a solid coloured) and I don't want any mud slinging with me in the middle. If they change their minds after all, well, as has been said, so what? If it is a good foal then someone else will want it, I may decide I want to.

As for taking in outside mares.........hmm. That needs a long chat with my Vet, I don't know the tests that mares etc should have over here. Anyway, the intention is to see how the foals (all being well) turn out, and how the horse himself turns out. He is just being started now, a total sweetheart, but he's only 3, so hormones could get the better of him and I could decide he will make a better gelding than a stallion, so the question of outside mares won't arise anyway.