Semen. Fresh, chilled, frozen- How long does each last?

PapaFrita

PapaFrita

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And what are the pros and cons please?
How hard are each to 'keep'?

To cut a long story short, I've been offered frozen from a stallion I adore, but they're collecting for themselves as he's for sale and they don't have the equipment to transport it to me (I live 800km away) I could possibly get hold of fresh and go and get it and bring it back myself when PF is in season, but is this realistic or not?
I could also ship her to him, but the distances involved are discouraging and livery over there would be HIGH.
Other suggestions welcome
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Chances of success are lousy! Fresh it's just too far to transport - you can stick a couple of straws down your bra and travel for a couple of hours - but that's about it. Chilled would be ok IF it was properly extended and chilled and transported in a suitable container - but even then you're talking 24 hours - 36 hours. Frozen - unless it's SKILLFULLY handled and frozen will be less than useless.
 
Haven't got time for a full reply, will do that later... but frozen is NOT useless. If the semen freezes OK and has reasonable post-thaw, then when properly managed, it can acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen. You've clearly had a bad experience, but this is not the norm.

Back later.
 
It's not realistic to transport "fresh" semen over 800km. Chilled would be fine for 48hours (maybe more or less depending on the stallion).

My recommendation would be that you purchase a "Gyrotainer". It's a fantastic disposable frozen semen shipper that costs about 70GBP from IMV and its distributors. Then get them to send the frozen in this around the right time. The shipper keeps the semen at the right temp for about 7 days without any problems.

Alternatively, you can use chilled. Disposable chilled shippers retail at about 20GBP, and work very well. You'd have no problems with this, except I don't know how reliable the postal service is in Argentina.

I am a little surprised that they're offering frozen, but don't have equipment to transport it... are they freezinig it, or has it been frozen "professionally". Find out what the post thaw progressive motility of this stallion's frozen semen is. If it's 25% or higher, then you should be OK.

Can you give us more details about your vet and their repro experience? This will also alter whether or not you go for the frozen semen. Frozen has great pregnancy rates, when it's used by vets and repro technicians that aren't numpties
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Let us know some more info
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The gyrotainer sounds just what I need. I'll look into it.
They're not actually offering frozen semen; the owner is stockpiling (so to speak!) as the stallion is for sale. I believe they have regular couriers from Buenos Aires that the vets here in Cordoba use, so it should arrive fine.
The vet I'm using is excellent and is in fact a specialist in AI and embryo transfer so I have total faith in her. I'm going to ask her to have a chat with their vet and see what they can sort out.
Thanks for the advice; it's been very helpful and interesting
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Haven't got time for a full reply, will do that later... but frozen is NOT useless. If the semen freezes OK and has reasonable post-thaw, then when properly managed, it can acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen. You've clearly had a bad experience, but this is not the norm.


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I didn't say frozen was useless - just that it would be if not frozen properly! OP has said the stallion owners do not normally offer frozen - but are 'stockpiling'. For all we know that means they're whacking it in the home freezer!

I would NOT recommend that anyone use frozen UNLESS they know exactly how it has been handled and that it HAS been used successfully to produce pregnancies. Not all stallions' semen freezes well; many people who collect and freeze semen haven't a clue.

I'm perfectly happy to use frozen if I am sure of its source (I am a qualified AI technician) but a hell of a lot of frozen semen IS useless. And even the best frozen semen does NOT acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen.
 
Oh, I'm pretty sure they're doing it properly- this is a very valuable stallion and I'm leaving the whole inseminating business to my vet and their vet... assuming any of this comes to fruition.
Can I ask why some frozen semen would be useless? I mean, what would make it useless and surely if someone were taking semen for freezing they would make sure it wasn't?
 
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Oh, I'm pretty sure they're doing it properly- this is a very valuable stallion and I'm leaving the whole inseminating business to my vet and their vet... assuming any of this comes to fruition.
Can I ask why some frozen semen would be useless? I mean, what would make it useless and surely if someone were taking semen for freezing they would make sure it wasn't?

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Some stallions' semen doesn't freeze well - no-one knows exactly why - they just don't. And the ONLY useful test of whether a stallion's semen freezes well is whether it has been used and resulted in pregnancies. So - for starters - I wouldn't want to be the first user of frozen semen from any particular stallion.

2nd, even if a stallion DOES freeze well, the handling of the semen from the moment it is collected is crucial. Have a look at http://www.stallionai.com/pages/templates/general.asp?articleid=6&zoneid=5 - starting half way down the page with Collection of Semen. It details all the necessary steps - get just one of them wrong = duff semen.

Frozen semen has a very poor reputation in some parts of the world precisely because there IS so much duff frozen semen doing the rounds. Of course even if the semen is great, it still has to be thawed properly and every step of the AI process has to be spot on. Fresh semen will live in the mare for at LEAST 2 days - sometimes up to 4 - meaning the timing is not critical. Frozen semen needs to be used no more than 6 hours pre or post-ovulation for a good chance of conception.

The final problem with semen coming from Argentina is the health checks. You would need an import licence and - to get one - the stallion must have undergone quarantine and health checks in an approved collecting station prior to semen being collected and frozen.

ETA - silly me - just noticed that you are IN Argentina so the health checks probably wouldn't apply UNLESS there are equine STDs in one part of Argentina and not another.
 
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...and I'm leaving the whole inseminating business to my vet and their vet... assuming any of this comes to fruition.
Can I ask why some frozen semen would be useless? I mean, what would make it useless and surely if someone were taking semen for freezing they would make sure it wasn't?

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Well, the fact that you're leaving it to the vets is a good sign. Is your vet from CRIA or a similar place?

I am assuming that the semen being sent out is of adequate quality. I've yet to come across frozen semen in this country that has been sent out and is not of adequate quality. Post-thaw motility of >25% is good enough for me in most cases. And locally, a pregnancy with a dose with PTM in single figures has been acheived.

JG - I'm afraid the fact that you're a qualified AI tech does not mean that your inseminations with frozen are the golden standard. Low dose inseminations by the papilla of the oviduct on the size of the dominant follicle are necessary to acheive high pregnancy rates with frozen, and these inseminations can only be carried out by very experienced techs or vets using rectal palpation or endoscopes to guide the long catheter.

If these people are freezing in the wrong way or storing it in their freezer, then obviously, the semen will be no good. But I would say that, in general, people who would make these mistakes don't even attempt to freeze semen. Home freezing is perfectly viable.

Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. While the latter may help, basic equipment and some care will produce viable frozen semen in a lot of cases.

PF - definitely investigate if the semen has produced pregnancies, but don't be scared off. A good vet will produce a well timed season using PG, hCG/GnRH, and will be able to inseminate the frozen semen at the right time and give you a really good probability of getting a pregnancy.

Hope that helps.
 
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And even the best frozen semen does NOT acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen.

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Well, based on international averages, you are correct. Current statistics suggest that pregnancy rates using frozen semen are approximately 10% lower than with chilled. However, the most modern techniques have improved timing, improved freezing of semen, and improved post-insemiation treatment of the mare to the point where pregnancy rates from AI with frozen semen are effectively equal to AI with chilled.

I think I quotes some stats on here some time ago from a 2006 American paper on inseminations with chilled and frozen semen. The pregnancy rates were 81.2% for chilled and 80.6% for frozen using a double insemination, low dose protocol. Fair enough, not EXACTLY the same, but it's pretty close! Things will only improve, and we can expect this pattern to be repeated at reputable breeding establishments across the world over the next few years.
 
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JG - I'm afraid the fact that you're a qualified AI tech does not mean that your inseminations with frozen are the golden standard.

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I don't inseminate with frozen! I stand a stallion and it's only his daughters who will be AI'd - and the one we plan to use frozen with will go to Twemlows.

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Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. While the latter may help, basic equipment and some care will produce viable frozen semen in a lot of cases.

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Tell that to hundreds of breeders every year who spend a small fortune trying to get their mares in foal with frozen, doing everything right their end, and failing! And if I want to freeze a stallion, I'd sure rather it was done at Twemlows - with extensive expertise and the best equipment rather than taking the risk that I may not be the lucky one who falls into the 'lot of cases' category.
 
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I don't inseminate with frozen! I stand a stallion and it's only his daughters who will be AI'd - and the one we plan to use frozen with will go to Twemlows.

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Fair enough... I only mentioned it because you said you were a qualified AI tech when justifying your disapproval of frozen semen. Have you had any problems with frozen semen using vets?

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Tell that to hundreds of breeders every year who spend a small fortune trying to get their mares in foal with frozen, doing everything right their end, and failing!

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Tell that to the thousands of breeders every year who get their mares in foal with frozen semen.

Doing everything "right", according to who? ... well, having dealt with a number of vets who say that they are experienced with frozen semen, and then seeing and hearing about what they do when AI'ing with frozen... I'm not sure that many people in the UK actually know what is "right" when it comes to using frozen semen.

The number of vets who think that post-ovulation inseminations are "the only way" with frozen semen is terrifying. It is globally accepted that fertility decreases exponentially with every hour after ovulation. There are a couple of excellent protocols that can be used for insemination with frozen semen, but very few vets in the UK are even aware of them, let alone use them.

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And if I want to freeze a stallion, I'd sure rather it was done at Twemlows - with extensive expertise and the best equipment rather than taking the risk that I may not be the lucky one who falls into the 'lot of cases' category.

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70% of stallions have semen that will freeze and have acceptable to good post thaw motility. The equipment makes no difference, other than it is slightly labour saving. The centres and manufacturers would have you believe the you need a controlled rate freezer and other expensive, hi-tech equipment to freeze semen... but it has been shown over and over in scientific studies, that the standard "vapour freeze" method using less than £100 worth of equipment produces frozen semen of the same quality as that frozen using one of the machines that costs £7k-£20k.
 
Well being a studfarm that this year used natural covering, chilled semen and frozen semen, the best results we got were with the natural and frozen semen.

Everybody is very willing to blame everything on the semen, and as AP says, much more comes into it than that.

I have just had my own stallion have his semen frozen at Twemlows, with quite good results PM. Tullis told me that as long as they can ship out the frozen at a minimum of 35% PM then it means that the person doing the AI'ing cannot fully blame the stallion semen.

A lot has to do with the person doing he insemination, and the internal makeup of the mare.

Each year you can get different results using the same semen, the same person doing the AI'ing and the mare. Breeding is a lottery.......not any different to humans or any other animal breeding.... sometimes it works and others it does not.

I would have no problem using frozen and if it is good quality semen then at least you know its there for when your mare is in season. With fresh or chilled you have to make sure you have a bloody reliable shipper.....otherwise it makes no difference if you use the best AI expert in the world....

Our biggest waste of money this year was with chilled semen...huge bill for a mare being away for a few months with nothing at the end of it, and with semen arriving on time etc....

Last year we had mares go into foal with no problems at all. This year they were given about every drug under the sun to make them cycle and ovulate.....all I got was very high bills and one of my mares not in foal. This was using the same people we did last year....who do around 120+ inseminations a year. I am certainly not blaming the stallion semen because the frozen was excellent quality.

We have even had problems through natural covering and the semen being excellent quality...so with no handler in the middle....it can only then come down to the mare...either not being the right time, or some other reason etc....
 
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Ooooooooooooo for a night of naughties with enrique
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.................ha ha ha!
Look you...........you are such a bad influence Tinsel Bum, how many times have I told you i am going to bed at 9pm tonight and what time is it now??
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Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. While the latter may help, basic equipment and some care will produce viable frozen semen in a lot of cases.



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Mmm - just one more question. What makes the information on the Twemlows site any more unbelievable than the claims on http://www.equinereproduction.co.uk/index.html

other, of course, than the fact that Twemlows have 17 years in the business and a totally proven track record? When your company has that sort of track record, you may be a little pi**ed off if some relative newcomers suggest YOUR site is misleading.
 
Just a cautionary note check the rules of the breed/type registration to make sure that they can still sign off the covering if they have sold the stallion. Some organisations don't allow a previous owner to sign off on covering certificates etc once the horse is sold on.
 
JG - I think you completely missed APs point and that is, that it need not be so expensive to freeze semen.

For a very long time the semen freezing business has been contolled by a few centres in the UK but now there are alot more places opening up and more competition which is healthy for the industry because they are doing the same as 'the big few' but showing it doesn't have to cost so much..

A word of advice - just because you feel you are losing a debate, in which other people are expressing their opinions that may not agree with your own, does not mean you then launch a personnal attack on someones business, this board is for discussion and not everyone is going to share the same view points.
 
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I see the terrible twins are lowering the tone of the debate again!
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Htobago......you know us so well......
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LLT2 - What on earth time were you up at this morning........!
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PF - Glad you are enjoying our banter.....welcome to our world in the breeding forum...
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JG - I agree with HG, all AP was trying to say was that freezing semen need not be expensive. He has never advocated his own business on HHO, so think that is a little unfair on your comment, as it was you who pulled that into the conversation.
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JG - I think you completely missed APs point and that is, that it need not be so expensive to freeze semen.

For a very long time the semen freezing business has been contolled by a few centres in the UK but now there are alot more places opening up and more competition which is healthy for the industry because they are doing the same as 'the big few' but showing it doesn't have to cost so much..

A word of advice - just because you feel you are losing a debate, in which other people are expressing their opinions that may not agree with your own, does not mean you then launch a personnal attack on someones business, this board is for discussion and not everyone is going to share the same view points.

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No - I think YOU missed it. I referred the OP to information on the Twemlow's site to give some background on the way the industry leaders do things. It was BrAndyPandyButter who said:

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Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise.

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That sounds rather like an attack on someone's business to me!!

It MAY be that freezing semen CAN be done cheaper - and be successful. If so, that's great - although I'd personally want to see some proof of success rates before I tried. But I'm actually not interested in 'winning' this debate - I WAS trying to give the OP useful background information so he/she would know some of the potential problems in what can be an expensive and disappointing process.
 
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I WAS trying to give the OP useful background information so he/she would know some of the potential problems in what can be an expensive and disappointing process.

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And I thank you and the other posters for your imput. I might know what the vet's talking about now
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I see the terrible twins are lowering the tone of the debate again!
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Ooh, are they? It's all absolutely fascinating though
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By Terrible Twins I mean Horsegroupie and Anastasia - not JG and AP!

It is all fascinating, though, I agree. I only wish that more vets would be willing/able to use frozen semen - it would mean much less wear and tear on my little stallion!

AP you mentioned ages ago a method of inseminating with frozen that does not require the usual scans every 6 hours (which put a lot of vets off using frozen, especially if they are inseminating at the mare's home)! What is happening with this new method - is it becoming more widely known/available? And does it have a name?

I'm asking partly because one of the breeders who used my boy last year now has a very enthusiastic/competent vet who is happy to use frozen semen. The breeder would like to use frozen this year (purely out of concern for my boy, bless her) so I would like to tell her and her vet about this new method, to save them some trouble if possible!
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