Sensible advice/suggestions for this lads future please.

If you have neither the time or resources to take this stunning horse any further forward then the best option for all concerned would be to find him a nice new owner who has the time, commitment and resources to take him forward.

There is no doubt that some horses have a far better relationship with some people than others. It is a simple difference in personalities and temprement and in many cases if one does not get on with a horse then the best thing to do for all parties concerned is to find a nice new home for the horse concerned. There are some very dedicated and capable people out there and it is just a matter of finding them. Any trainer however good and well respected will have their failures and disasters and it is very much down to temprement and personalities. Find him a nice new home with someone that you can keep in touch with and then enjoy seeing how they progress with him. Good luck to both of you.
 
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have you tried Ian Waite (apologies if you have already). I don't know him very well, but have seen him work his magic on a few rude stroppy horses at my old yard, and he really is quite amazing.

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He is
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He is a very calm, gentle but firm rider and the only person I would trust to back a horse.
He backed Phantom and was brilliant to watch.
He also worked on a very highly strung mare I had who was a complete bucking bronco (although too highly strung for a RS pony)

Can't rate him highly enough.
 
May be worth looking at his diet as well - what are you feeding him? Some horses are incredibly sensitive and can demonstrate these kinds of behaviour with surprisingly small amounts of sugars/starches.
 
Stunning horse!! would be such a shame to pts but understand with the whole money thing. The only thing I can say is my friend had this issue with her youngerster last year, she sent him to NH person and well hes back home and she been riding him ever since. I went and watched the first time he got on him, needless to say I was amazed!!! he was there about 4/5 weeks.
 
I don't even really like spotty horses, but he is gorgeous!

Really hope you can sort something out for him, he really looks like he could be a very useful horse
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7 is still soo young so I think there is more than a glimmer of hope - sounds like he needs starting again from scratch to be honest with someone used to horses like this who is more understanding than maybe other professionals who 'break' horses in a more brute force/break them into submission type of way.

We bought my 14.2hh as a 7/8 yo and he was neurotic to say the least. He was bought as a jumping pony but to be honest his brain couldn't cope. He too was a very stunning looking pony so he appealed to people who then found him too much.

He almost came across as paranoid to be honest and would freak out at the slightest thing. Still, 15 years on we still have him! He is and always will be quirky but he is 200% calmer and mroe relaxed and we never went as far as trying to re-back him although he was sent away on a couple of occasions to 'professionals' (big mistake!).

Please don't have him PTS unless a very last resort. These days there are so many people out there with different approaches to horse backing etc I am sure you will find someone who can help. He is very nice and has a lovely head and an open sort of expression about him that looks honest just maybe a little confused.
 
TBH I think its worth a shot trying with the backing again. OK it might be harder that had it not been botched in the first place but with some patience I think you could turn him around. Rather than sending him away, could you not get someone in to help you and leave you with homework for a day or two before returning to progress?

Have you considered tying a weighted dummy to the saddle and seeing how he reacts? If he broncs and it's tied securely enough it shouldn't come off and he should learn that broncing doesnt mean rider hits the deck!...
 
Your horse is gorgeous please don't give up on him. I have 3 horses all who I have bought with problems. 1 had similar problems to what you are describing. If I didn't already have 3 I would love to buy him. There will be someone out there who will give him a fantastic home.
 
I know this is harsh but i'd PTS, what if he goes off to someone to be rebrokend and he hurts someone you'd never forgive yourself.
 
Give him to a rescue place (something like the blue cross, ILPH) as they will always have ownership of him which means he will never get passed from pillar to post and they have the resorces to help him in anyway posible. I know that a lot of theses places are over run with horses but i think that its worth a try.

Atleast with this you would have peace of mind that he is being looked after and that he cant fall in to the wrong hands.
 
I really feel for you - its such a worry when this happens. Out of interest, can I ask whether you do groundwork with him? If you have him in a halter, can you get him to move his feet with light cues? Will he move back easily with pressure, come forward without walking over you? Can you indicate with a look or gesture for him to move his quarters in a turn on the forehand type move, both ways. If you walk 'into' his neck/head area, does he move away?

If he does do this, but will not accept the backing process, it doesn't look too good. But if you haven't established some ground rules, for whatever reason and jumping all over you might be one good reason, it might be you could work on this and just change the physcological imbalance that appears to exist. I.e., he thinks humans are scary but not to be respected either!

Just a thought, hope you can sort him out as he's beautiful.
 
Just wanted to give another vote for Jason Webb. I sent my horse to him a few years back and was very impressed.

For those that are interested....I'd bought a just backed 4yo through a yard and a few weeks after I got him he completely freaked out as I was getting on. Unfortunately I was past the point of no return, but my butt wasn't quite in the saddle, he did his best rodeo impression and I hit the deck. After that he wouldn't let anyone near him. He'd be fine to tack up but if you moved towards him/the saddle he'd freak out. I did the physical usual checks, and it was my vet who recommended Jason. He worked with him for 4 weeks. He showed me different ways to handle him, from the ground, to mounting and to riding and we've never looked back.

Interestingly, he also told me in no uncertain terms that this issue was caused by a previous negative experience. At the time I wasn't sure, as he was a just backed baby, and TBH I blamed myself. However a couple of years on I heared on the horsey grapevine that my so called 'just backed' 4yo had actually put his previous owner in hospital...while she was trying to get on. All he did was re-live it with me.

Anyway, my point is he was very good at pin pointing a negative previous experience that I didn't know about and showed me how to move on.

Good luck
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Thank you all for your thoughts. Feed wise he lives out all year 24/7 with hay and a small feed when it's really cold. From memory the backing process went something like this: First session he was lunged and long-reined, as I said, his ground work was already very well established. Next day, guy lunged, then lent over and walked a few steps fine, then sat in saddle fine. 3rd day guy lunged, then got on went to walk off, one massive buck and he was off. Got back on and instantly trotted off round school 'keeping him going forward'. Horse looked worried but was fine for 2 laps before launching into his rodeo act. He looked exactly like the rodeo horses do on tv. Unless you were tied to the saddle, you were coming off. I was seriously impressed by how long the guy sat it, but eventually he flew into a fence and badly hurt his leg. I didn't want to leave it like that and wondered if he'd be better with me so did ground work again for 2 weeks (repeating leaning over etc) then got on. Again, the minute we went to move off, I was on the floor. He doesn't just buck, I can sit bucks, I've had plenty of babies buck with me. All four feet come off the ground and he twists. After 6 months, we tried again, same result. The problem is, he does all the preparatory work perfectly, even standing quietly for you to get on. I've sat on him a few times since, but not in the last year. This is, granted, all quite some time ago and it's not impossible he has matured since then. He's still a very nervous horse though. I'm not against the idea of trying again but I can only afford to do it once and if it fails again, the damage will be irreparable. It's very hard to know who to trust with this horse's last chance. I can't take things any further here as I'm on my own and have no school. I have advertised him for sale/loan before and had a lot of interest from people thinking they could fix him. When I got some of them to ride my dizzy arab, they were useless. Most of them only had as much experience as me, backing untouched youngsters which are much easier than one that has already been messed up. I'm reluctant to move him on as he is, as we all know, once they're out of your hands anything can happen. Thank you all again for your comments, they are helping me to focus my mind a bit.
 
I wish you loads of luck, I too have one who is unrideable, he is nine now and a field ornament ( but I have my own place so not a desperate issue ). My horse was bought as a youngster and was badly started by a prof SJer, he then went to someone who knew what he was doing but I think the rot had set in. They had asked too much too soon and he was only ever ridden in the school without ' fun' and he just said no.

He has had various trainers, all good, like yours he is lovely natured but he is just un predictable in the saddle. I think its insecurity but when he decides your coming off, your coming off. I've known of him go vertical four times ( in four yrs ).

He has other issues too in that he is the herd leader and becomes in flight mode if separated, galloping in what seems like a blind panic to get back to his friends.

My conclusion is that he is a horse who just doesn't like being ridden and I don't know what to do with him. He has SJ lines and is a smart horse but I won't risk people being hurt so he stays at home and i'm hoping to do some ground work clinics etc not with a view to riding but just so I can have some small way of enjoying him.

Good luck there are no easy answers.
 
I'd vote for having him broken to drive, that way he has a job and potentially a secure future in a driving home. I would have thought a stunning looker like him would be a popular choice with driving folks.

It would be less of a risk to pay someone to start driving him as he hasn't already been messed up for driving and he already long reins well.

As long as you are honest about the riding situation when you sell him as a driving horse then he should be fine.
 
Just been out to feed and whilst waiting for the fast fibre to soak (seems to take ages in this weather!) I put a headcollar on him in the field and tried a few of those exercises. Quite impressed actually as he can be a sod to catch .He goes back, forward, sideways and round with the slightest touch, licking and chewing the whole time and looking slightly confused. Whether he moves his head and neck away depends on how softly/quickly you move into him.
 
I too had a beautifull nervous young horse. The breeder offered to have him broken for me before I bought him. She had a friend who had been a Monty Roberts student for 6weeks and thought she knew it all. Big mistake! He was a very friendly horse, and sending him away in a round pen totally unnerved him. No matter how long they chased him round, he would not submit, would not drop his head and didnt lick and chew. So they decided to press on and slapped a saddle on him. Again big mistake! He totally freaked and turned himself inside out and upside down. I said WHOA! and bought him there and then before they completely ruined him.

It took me months to get his confidence. He was frightened to death of everything, even the bit rattling in his mouth! Eventually, I backed him in a stable on my own using a stool and endless carrots. I used to guide him round the stable on a headcollar rope and then push the stable door open while still on him and he would walk out and round a concrete yard. The first time I rode him on grass, he freaked and bronked me off. He never did it on tarmac or concrete. (Obviously knew he may slip). It still was a fear/panic thing, but years later I am convinced it was also something to do with pain. He used to stand dozing in a field, then jump as though something had hurt him and he would bolt till he ran into something. Vets and physios could find nothing wrong. Eventually I found the only way to stop him broncing when ridden was to actually tie his head up so he could not put it between his knees to bronc. I used a strong headcoller under the bridle and a rope from the bit up through the top rings on the headcollar and tied it to the top of the saddle like grass reins. It cured him. If he had been a rearer, which he fortunately wasnt, I would have also had a strong rope on him like a tight martingale, to stop the head and neck going up. Sometimes drastic measures work, and when he realised he couldnt get his head down, he started listening to me and working through his moments of panic/madness. After about 6 months riding with the rope on him, I took it off and if ever he thought about broncing then, I was always ready to pull on one rein to twist his head round and up. (A horse can pull better against you if you try to pull him up with both reins.) He had got used to me riding him, so he was only very half-hearted about broncing again.

He never gave me a bad moment out hacking, it was always when schooling, so perhaps riding out gave him other things to think about and to this day, I much prefer riding any youngster out on the road than schooling in a field.

Everyone in that livery yard said I would never manage to break and ride him, but I did and I did it on my own as I had no one to help me. We hacked and did lots of pleasure rides and a few shows where I jumped him, but he was always a bit unpredictable.

If you have the nerve to try it, I would see if preventing him getting his head down to bronc works for you as he has got to be worth it, even if you have to invest in an air jacket first! It can still be done with kindness, gentleness and consideration for him, but he may get some confidence from it as he may start to depend on you if he feels you are in control. Good luck in whatever you decide to do with him.
 
I've had lots of horses over the years that were classed as problems (its all I could ever afford) Most were success stories, and it was just overcoming bad handling. One such was a 17 hand ID X TB that I bought at Cambridge market. He was supposed to be backed and ridden away by a showjumping jockey. After I bought him, I was told that he had a broken back, which was rubbish because he moved so nicely. ( He was sold in a halter not under saddle) I always do everything without help, as I find the horse really has to listen and concentrate on you. I found when saddling this horse up, that he would go berserk and buck himself on to the ground. When I had a good feel about him, I found he had torn all the muscles between his front legs, which was probably done during the breaking. I am very careful how I girth up, but a lot of these SJing guys like to really make sure that the horse is cut in two! It took me 3 mths to get on this horses back, but once I got his confidence he was a fantastic ride, I could lead a racehorse off him on the stubble at a canter, and he was as steady as a rock. He finally went on to be a really good hunter for his new owner.
On the other side of the coin, I bought a Welsh D cob, 5 yrs old who had been broken by a pro, and first time his owner rode him, he bolted and threw her and she broke her leg. This horse would just take off in hand if he didn't like something, and run straight through anything that was in his way. I spent a year trying to sort him out, but he had a "flight" reflex that I couldn't cure. One day I tried to long rein him, and he went through 3 strands of barbed wire and took out 4 posts as well, and disappeared into the blue.
I decided he was a danger to himself and anybody who got in his way, and had him shot. I could have sold him at a sale as he was a really good sort, but I couldn't have it on my conscience what might happen to him or anybody who tried to ride him, so I know exactly where you are coming from.
Its not about having somebody who would love your boy and coo over him. He needs a very experienced, CALM, totally confident horseman, and they are few and far between. From what you have said about his breaking in, I would have gone over the same ground far longer before trying to ride him. I nearly always longrein them out and then when they are really used to it all, I just get on and ride home. (obviously, I have leant over, flapped about and sat on them many times in the stable, so they find all that part boring).
It sounds like your lad really needs de-sensitizing but he does need to build up trust in his rider.
 
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Gosh, he sounds sooo similar to mine (4 when I got him, 11 now). Big, sensitive and panicky. Thinks the world is a baaad place. My lad used to bolt.

What fixed mine was a one to one relationship, once he trusted me the panic stopped. And I was really novicey!

And he is an absolute diamond - I'm sure this one would be the same.

One thing that helped mine considerably was Wendall's herbs calmer.

Echo the thing about a nagsman. I have a fabulous one here but obv too far for you.

Such a shame I have one project on the go, or I'd have snapped him up.

Also, apols MrsM but I have seen Mickey Gavin in action with a VERY nervous horse. He spent a long time "sacking it out" and it tolerated it...but still bolted any time anyone got on to try it. I don't know what happened to it but that, once again, was a lovely horse.

I'm sooo not sure about the "NH" route - I went that way with mine initially, worse than useless. I really think with the "nervous breakdown at anything" types, a proper, no nonsense, experienced nagsman is what you need.

Gosh I wish you the best of luck - quite sure he could be a dream mount, if he can just be sorted out.

Do keep us posted xx
 
Please don't give up on him! I really think it would be worth going to a Natural Horsemanship person, someone who is does he monty roberts technique. maybe keep an eye out for when monty does his demo in this country!
 
I am no great horse person, but I would take your horse on for grass loan if I wasn't so far away and he wasn't dominant in the field (we already have two of those
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I think he just needs time, someone who gets him (not saying that you don't!
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) and more time to get used to the idea. I do think driving could be a good opportunity for him providing he wasn't flighty on the roads and scared of traffic etc.
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Trouble is it's going to be a very long job to get this horse safe enough to sell on, thus costing huge amounts, and thats if you are lucky enough to get a decent trainer.
RE driving - barry hook is reputed to be very good with this type of horse and he may well take to driving more readily than if you continue with ridden work.Don't know Barry at all but he has some great vid's on Utube - I'll find a link if interested.
He's still young though, and stunning...
Please don't PTS - if all else fails I would take him on as a long term project for as long as it takes. PM me to discuss if you like and I'll send a link to a video of my nut case horse. It took ten years to get him right and I wouldn't swap him for shergar
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Thanks all. This thread has been very helpful. I'm confused, but at least I'm thinking through all the options. LC, where abouts is this Barry Hook chap?
 
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