Seriouly "wobble" about going barefoot

JEP

JEP

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Help! advise please. My 15.2hh coloured cob was diagnosed with arthritis in off side hock a couple of months ago. My vet suggested a low dose of Danilon which keeps in sound in walk but not 100% in trot. Had a highly regarded McTimoney pracitioner look at him and she strongly recommended going barefoot. Very unsure about it as my horses have access to their stables all day and my yard is rolled stone so quite uncomfortable for horse with no shoes but was assured this would'nt be a problem. Had his shoes taken off yesterday, was given a lecture by my farrier, who I get on well with, about avoiding barefoot trimmers although have arranged for one to look at him in a couple of weeks. When I turned him out for the first time without shoes my boy seemed a bit unsure what to do with his feet and this morning is obviously quite sore and a bit down. Think the hard ground is not helping. Already had words with OH for making his favorite horse suffer. Please should I stick with this, will it help in the long run or should I ring my farrier and get front shoes put back on. Have upped Danilon from half a sachet to one a day. So stressed if it was'nt 7.45am would be reaching for the red wine bottle!!
 
I think it's to be expected that he may be a bit sore, initially. And I can't understand why (if you continue) you wouldn't just get your farrier to trim the horse.

However, having had a horse a few years ago (well two actually) was barefoot - I can tell you that I only gave it a week before the shoes went back on the one. He simply couldn't cope - and this was just in the field as he was not ridden.

Also (sorry may sound a bit ranty) I simply don't understand people's aversion to giving a horse medication when it's needed. Danillon is perfectly safe to give in reasonable quantities to keep a horse sound and comfortable long term. So if the horse needs 1 or even 2 sachets a day to keep him happy - so be it.

I would not take the shoes off a horse that I was expecting to work. But, obviously, that's my personal opinion only.
 
My farrier did say he wouldnt trim any differently for going unshod than a barefoot trimmer so think I will strick with him as he's been great with my horses in the past. Thanks for you comment about Danilon as having never used it long term before not sure how much to give.
 
You might want to avoid me - being a barefoot trimmer! - but my advice is to give it time. Your set up sounds ideal for a barefoot horse. He's bound to be a bit footy at first - imagine if you took your shoes and socks off and started walking round outside. But equally you don't want him to be so miserable he stops moving around. Did your farrier recommend hoof boots? If not he should have done... they're essential for the transitioning period. They do need fitting properly though so if your farrier can't do it then a barefoot trimmer will have experience of them. Did your farrier also talk to you about diet? Again it's essential to having a successful barefoot horse. As for the trim, unlike your farrier I'm not going to say avoid farriers... there are great ones out there... but he may or may not trim the same as a barefoot trimmer would. Some do, some don't. I can recommend an excellent trimmer in your area who is extremely experienced and well trained (fully insured and accountable to her organisation) - PM me if you want her details. All my horses are barefoot and my two competition horses are very hard working. Barefoot certainly benefits arthritic horses - even just the fact they're not having nails banged into their feet is of comfort to them.
 
Thanks Mr Darcy, I have PM'd you but being a bit of a novice at this think I may have managed to cancel it without sending! Could let me know it not received.
 
What Mr Darcy says! Always very sensible.

You should expect him to be aware of his feet when the shoes first come off - one of mine was a bit tender for 3-4 weeks then bounced straight back and has been great barefoot since then. Just gave him a danilon when I thought he needed it, and used boots.

One of the others stepped out of shoes one day and just didn't notice!

Remember also that their feet may have had little or no direct stimulation from the ground in shoes - so it will take a little time for them to get used to it - they may well have a sensation like pins and needles at the moment - and there will be unusual feelings under his feet. When Link went barefoot he used to step on and off surfaces to "test" them. Often it can be psychological as much as anything - it just feels funny for them.

JEP - my horse has spavin, bilateral, and I have seen a significant improvement in his overall soundness since the shoes came off - two things, less concussion, and he can grow his hoof the way it needs to be to support the leg above it.

was given a lecture by my farrier, who I get on well with, about avoiding barefoot trimmers although have arranged for one to look at him in a couple of weeks.
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Oohhh....that really gets my goat - how would he feel if another hoofcare professional was going around telling horse owners to avoid these farriers! I bet he would be on to their governing body quicker than a flash complaining about it!!!

Good for you! Hope you get a lot out of the trimmer appointment, if it is a UKNHCP trimmer I am sure you will.

If your farrier has not addressed diet, talked about boots and discussed the support that may be required during transition then imho he is failing in his duty of care to you and your horse. Or, perhaps he just does not think that diet, booting and transitional support are important enough to discuss, and that gives you a different set of questions then!


However, having had a horse a few years ago (well two actually) was barefoot - I can tell you that I only gave it a week before the shoes went back on the one. He simply couldn't cope - and this was just in the field as he was not ridden.
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Amway...at that point I'd be asking myself a question - "If he can't even cope in the field without shoes, maybe that's a sign that that the horse is really compromised and has some significant underlying problems that are making him so sensitive" ?

That's not intended to be confrontational or "having a go" - I'd just be coming at that from a completely different angle.
 
My TB had his shoes off late last summer. He has had soundness problems in the past due to feet issues. He has benefitted hugely from it despite having very thin soles, flat feet & under run heels. The first few weeks were hard, but every day I notice how much more confident & sure footed he is. He stomps around happy as larry now :)
It is a fab feeling watching him do a beautiful extended trot across a rock hard field knowing he is sound & medication free.:)
I also use my usual farrier for a trim & he does a nice job. Have thought about a barefoot trimmer but dont see the need at the moment.
 
Amymay...at that point I'd be asking myself a question - "If he can't even cope in the field without shoes, maybe that's a sign that that the horse is really compromised and has some significant underlying problems that are making him so sensitive" ?

That's not intended to be confrontational or "having a go" - I'd just be coming at that from a completely different angle.
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Oh, he was hugely compromised - and was put down shortly afterwards.
 
Well, where do i start?

My best friend is a barefoot trimmer and maybe the one coming to see your horse. On that note, there are a few different types of barefoot trimmers and one imparticular you need to stay clear of. If you need some good advise then contact the UK hoof trimmers,

http://www.ukhooftrimmers.co.uk/

This is my friend Caroline and she will gladly talk things through with you on the phone if you are not in catchment distance. She will also travel.

I transitioned my chap to barefoot about 3 years ago as he is also arthritic. It is a long haul to do and patience really is a virtue. Your boy will be sensitive for a long while as he has just regained the feeling in his feet that he wouldn't have had having shoes on. This is because shoes stop the blood flow to the feet. To be honest, the best thing is for them to walk on gravel and will aid his transition. Imagine how we feel walking on a stone or shingle beach, of course if hurts. My chap was like that for a good 6 months but after that would be cantering around quite happily over the stones.

Keep at it with the barefoot and please ignore your farrier. Of course he's not happy as he's loosing a client and i think they are all aware that barefoot is the way forwards.

One last thing, think about horses in the wild. They dont have shoes and they travel over lots of difference teranes, rocks, mountains etc.

Oh and my horses arthritis is non existant and has not been lame for about 2 years!!!

Good luck.
 
Thanks to the encouraging advice I'm feeling a lot less wobbley" than I did this morning. Your friend Caroline has been recommended to me this morning by PM and I see she is based in Somerset, as I am, so will contact her, as the trimmer I have booked to come and look at my boy does'nt seem to be register with any organization. Is this something I should be worried about. Was just wondering if the trimmer I should avoid is in my area.
 
as the trimmer I have booked to come and look at my boy does'nt seem to be register with any organization. Is this something I should be worried about.
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Theoretically yes. In reality, they may be a brilliant trimmer and great horse-person. That's down to the individual, and you have to make up your own mind.

Even if they are registered with an "organisation", you shouldn't let them handle your horse and do their feet if you are unhappy with their level of knowledge, experience and how they behave to you and your horse.

Belonging to an organisation, and even certification by an organisation is some protection and a certain level of assurance - but it is not foolproof.There are certified and qualified people I simply won't let near my horses!

Did you book this trimmer as the result of a recommendation from a friend?

Sent you a PM
 
Amy May, I think you & I feel the same about this subject!! Why would anyone come on here saying "Ignore your farrier he is just annoyed that he's losing a client" What a load of rubbish, makes me so cross. Seems only the barefooters come on here constantly justifying therir cause & trying to guilt trip anyone who has shod horses. Some horses can do without shoes, some cannot, simple. Meg, my old pony who is laminitic & has cushings is shod in front only with pads & heart bars, she is sound & happy, Kizzy has not recovered well from her DDFT surgery, so is turned out without shoes, funnily enough I didn't pay a trimmer a huge sum to talk me through the transition period, or buy some over priced boots, just took her shoes off, & hey guess what, shes fine. Fleur, new competition pony was always shod all round, farrier removed back shoes before turning out with the others, no need for an expensive trim & boots here either, she's in full work & feet are fine. Sorry, & breathe, rant over.
 
kizzywiz said:
Amy May, I think you & I feel the same about this subject!! Why would anyone come on here saying "Ignore your farrier he is just annoyed that he's losing a client" What a load of rubbish, makes me so cross. Seems only the barefooters come on here constantly justifying therir cause & trying to guilt trip anyone who has shod horses. Some horses can do without shoes, some cannot, simple. Meg, my old pony who is laminitic & has cushings is shod in front only with pads & heart bars, she is sound & happy, Kizzy has not recovered well from her DDFT surgery, so is turned out without shoes, funnily enough I didn't pay a trimmer a huge sum to talk me through the transition period, or buy some over priced boots, just took her shoes off, & hey guess what, shes fine. Fleur, new competition pony was always shod all round, farrier removed back shoes before turning out with the others, no need for an expensive trim & boots here either, she's in full work & feet are fine. Sorry, & breathe, rant over.
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I'm not justifying anything, I've no need to - if someone posts a question on the forum asking for advice then I try and answer based on my training and experience. I never guilt trip anybody - please point me in the direction of one of my posts if you think I do.

To take an issue though - you mention your Kizzy is doing fine without transitioning or over priced boots (which work out far cheaper over the course of twelve months than shoes btw!)... is she in work or just turned out in the field?

amymay said:
Well as my horses feet have not fallen off - I don't quite see how this can be the case.....
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Blood supply is reduced by around half to two thirds in a shod hoof - there's a great photo showing this... wish I could scan and post it here but it's copyrighted. Any farrier will tell you exactly the same thing.
 
This is because shoes stop the blood flow to the feet.
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This is a bit of a gross over simplification! Not sure that is quite correct :)

turned out without shoes, funnily enough I didn't pay a trimmer a huge sum to talk me through the transition period, or buy some over priced boots, just took her shoes off, & hey guess what, shes fine. Fleur, new competition pony was always shod all round, farrier removed back shoes before turning out with the others, no need for an expensive trim & boots here either, she's in full work & feet are fine.
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If only :D it were so simple! One of my three went straightforward like that, not quite so simple for the other.
 
MrDarcy, Kizzy is turned out in the field following a rehab from surgery that hasn't worked out as we hoped, she comes in daily for a check over though, a fair walk along a footpath, currently lumpy hard mud, & over concrete, she's striding out normally. Farrier did say that if she comes back into work, she won't be eventing & jumping, hacking & dressage on a surface if we're lucky, she would be fine barefoot as she has good feet. I didn't intend any offence about the guilt tripping thing, this certainly wasn't aimed at you personally, but some people do tend to go on a bit of a crusade about the whole shoeing/barefoot thing, whereas you don't seem to get farriers on here telling everyone that barefoot is the root of all evil etc etc. Perhaps I have just been lucky that both Kizzy & Fleur, my new one, have coped well immediately that the shoes have come off. Meg my old pony was fine too though years ago when I decided for safety in the field not to shoe behind.
 
Personally (and I'm not getting started on barefoot Vs Shoeing again) I would give him some more time to get used to being shoeless. It takes 6-12 months for the entire hoof to regrow and it will obviously take more than a couple of days to harden up the sole. I'm not sure why you have already made an appointment with a barefoot trimmer when you seem to be happy enough with your farrier?
 
"It is a long haul to do and patience really is a virtue. Your boy will be sensitive for a long while as he has just regained the feeling in his feet that he wouldn't have had having shoes on. "


Ummmm, I can just imagine the people who think we are barefoot nutters having a field day with this one :) It is certainly the case that he could be sensitive on tough surfaces (and if the stone outside your stables is not flat, that will be one) for several months, but if so he should not be exposed to them for any serious length of time. You do not need to let him be sore, but you do need to manage carefully what he is exposed to and keep it to what he can cope with. I would not personally use pain relief because it might allow him to damage himself because he does not feel the pain of what he is doing.

It is not always, though, a long haul. I've had several where the haul was so short neither I nor the horse noticed we'd got on the plane. I've had others that took over six months to work on the road without boots.

"whereas you don't seem to get farriers on here telling everyone that barefoot is the root of all evil"

Surely the reason some barefoot people rant against shoes and farriers don't rant against barefoot is that even good shoeing produces unwelcome changes inside the foot and it actually damages many horses (all horses if you count nail holes as damage) and good barefoot does nothing but good? It's very difficult to run down something that has no ill effects!
 
Farrierlover it takes about 4 months for a newly barefoot horse to grow its first full hoof. I have one which is 8 weeks in and the heel is on the ground and the toe is 50% there. I can send you a photo if you want to see it. The rate of growth in a working barefoot horse (roughly twice as fast as a shod one with the same feeding and work) is one of the things that convinces me that shoeing can't be good for a horse.

I'm ditto on the Farrier, OP. If he's supportive of you trying this, why not allow him to carry on?
 
When we first went barefoot with our 2 we were told to spray the hooves with cider vinegar to harden them up. We did this for about the first 6 weeks
 
From recent experience, unless your farrier is also keen on barefoot then there is likely to be a difference in the trim from him and the one from a barefoot trimmer. I was nervous when I first decided to get a trimmer, so I asked if I could go out with her for a day and watch her work on other horses. I had a great day doing it, learned a lot and was then very happy for her to come and do my horses feet. Might be worth you doing similar even if you do stick with your farrier in the end - it's really interesting!
 
That's a really good idea and will see if I can arrange that with the trimmer. Do'nt have too much of an issue with my farrier as he will not lose my business completely as I also have a TB who I would'nt consider going barefoot as he's such a "whoose" I could'nt cope with the fuss he would make, even a small amount of discomfit is a major issue with him! Have to say my coloured boy is already looking a bit more comfortable this morning so perhaps I was panicking unnecessarily which, even after 40 odd years of owning horses, I still do. (yes I know I should have put "Serious" not Seriouly in the title of this thread)
 
JEP said:
My 15.2hh coloured cob was diagnosed with arthritis in off side hock a couple of months ago. My vet suggested a low dose of Danilon which keeps in sound in walk but not 100% in trot. Had a highly regarded McTimoney pracitioner look at him and she strongly recommended going barefoot.
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Have you put him on a mobility-type supplement for his hocks?

Personally I encourage you to commit yourself to six weeks barefoot before calling back the farrier for a new pair of shoes (this should be enough time to see his feet hardening and an improvement in his comfort) and encourage you to keep going with the Danilon and start him on a supplement (personally Premierflex HA)... I am soooo confident that given a month you wont recognise your horse and will be a complete convert :D
 
i have had two horses go barefoot.
the first was very easy and was very clearly the right way to go as farriers were bending nails trying to get them into his rock solid dinner plate size feet, he was always loosing shoes and slips and trips were the norm. also a set of shoes cost over £100 because of his size and the fact the farrier had to make them himself! He has been barefoot for nearly two years now and at first he when we did his daily 15min walk he got footy towards the end but now we hack loads on the roads with no problems and we can go down the step gloucestershire hills without having to get off and lead!

The other was VERY different. he went barefoot as he had lymphangitus (sp) and mud fever and artritus but was very clumbsy wich caused him to knock himself all the time leading to flair ups of the infections. He was a nightmare to go barefoot and for months every time after his trim he would go almost into shock and look very sore for a couple of days but eventually he came right and we could hack loads. unfortunatly i couldnt keep him though so he went back to the rescue center (it wasnt his fault)

both the boys changed greatly in their transitions and became more happy and the second one was sound however i lost count of the amount of times i reached for the phone to get shoes put back on him (thank god my mum stopped me)
it will take time but should be worth it in the end.
 
On my vet's recommendation I have him on Cortaflex at the moment but would be grateful for any other suggestions. Thanks again for all the replies to this post and encouraging advice.
 
You know what? I spent a huge amount on Cortavet, and then on Cosequin thingy over 2-3 years. Was very precise about daily dosing.

I think it did not a blind bit of difference and is one great big cycnical marketing gimick - kind of where a controled study was done and it showed a "statistically significant" benefit.

I know a man who knows...My OH's Dad is a Statistics Professor - and he laughs at the whole idea of "statistical significance" and says many things are "statistically significant" but actually quite useless! Is a 6% improvement in lameness scores actually going be relevant.....?

I'm going to have the sciency types after me now!

Save your money! I switched on to feeding Charnwood Linseed at £25 a bag - and it has done more for him overall than the £120 tubs of white powder wee doing.

All you need is a picture of a horse on the tub, and it's suddenly worth twice as much!

My favourite film is "Crazy People" :D
 
Stick with it, your horse will be sore for awhile. If he has always been shod it is unlikely that he will have a tough calloused sole, this takes time to develop.

I switched my belgian warmblood to barefoot approx 9 months ago, due to having navicular and being advised to pts.

He was crippled at first, even on the grass, i stuck with it and now we have good hooves, a lovely hard sole and he can go on almost any terrain. He is showjumping and competing again!

I had my first barefoot trimmer come and see him the other day, my farrier has been great but still thinks he should have shoes on.... It was lovely to talk to someone who has really studied it, and was on my wavelength. Not once did she knock my farrier or any farrier for that matter. Any little niggles i had she explained and gave me reassurance i was going in the right direction.

Give barefoot time, and i can see big changes happening in the future, once it starts to be supported by more vets etc.

You don't need to be a scientist to realize the most beneficial way is too allow the foot to work naturally.
 
I think you should give it time. It can take up to 18 mths for a horse to adjust to barefoot trimmimg, so it probably depends on how much time you have to spare. i dont think, as much as i'd like my horses to be barefoot, that i could give up 18 mths, because i'd guarantee you that all of mine would take 18 mths to come sound on any terrain. I have a 25 year old mare that is still going strong, nobody believes me when i tell them how old she is, but i wouldnt even try her barefoot. I had a horse that had pedal degenerative disease, which they put down to bad shoeing(90% bad shoeing over the years). It broke my heart, but i had to have him PTS last november, as both pedal bones in his front feet had completely wrotted. Vet said, even with bute, it was like having a constant toothache, poor boy. If i had caught it early enough, i'd have given him all the time in the world to come sound barefoot. Do you have something else to ride while you wait? You could be lucky, it might only take a month. I'd give it 3 mths if i were you and see how it goes. Best of luck with it, no matter what happens.
 
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