Serviceably sound ?

[Jericho]

So we are on the hunt for a new horse having faced reality that our current 7 yr old horse of a lifetime after 18 months of lameness issues is destined only to be a much loved hack. Luckily we have had a windfall and have the budget for a new horse and want one with experience at BE Novice and above to crack on with and have fun for the next few years. We have seen a few and favourite so far has been an 12 yr old mare who has competed at Advanced but more comfortable and successful at lower levels. She ticks most boxes and instantly clicked when ridden however she has been having 6 monthly hock injections and by the owners admission probably wouldn’t pass a vetting due to an old injury and would therefore be uninsurable. She has however competed for the last five years consistently and successfully at the higher levels without any major lameness. Her asking price is the high end of mid five figures so fairly substantial but negotiable. Is it too much of a risk? I believe this is called ‘serviceably sound’ in that the horse is sound enough to do a job but isn’t clean enough for vetting or X-rays? Head is def saying no having spent a fortune and maxed out insurance twice over with current horse who passed a vetting with flying colours 2 years ago but heart and a little bit of head is also saying her record speaks for itself and no horse is absolutely perfectly sound….

 

[Equi]

No. Injections will only work for so long and the issue they are getting them for will most likely be degenerative. They risk infection/higher risk of laminitis every single time. At 12yo i would not risk that.

 

[Bernster]

Nope

 

[Squeak]

I wouldn’t for that price and the job you’re looking for it to do.

Also if she passed a vetting with flying colours two years ago and now wouldn’t pass, she must have got a lot worse in those two years. And potentially with those years being Covid years too they wouldn’t have even been full competition seasons.

 

[TheMule]

I actually wouldn’t be put off her- buying a horse at that level that ticks all the boxes and has relatively minor management issues is a rare find. I'd want to see the vet history and would have a thorough vetting anyway as would want a bit more info for that money

 

[Errin Paddywack]

It was their current horse that passed the vet with flying colours but is now not sound not the one they are viewing.

 

[ihatework]

When you say high end of mid 5 figures do you mean 15k bracket or 50k bracket.

Im assuming 50k kind of bracket (because most people in that kind of market would jump at an advanced horse to step down to at 15k).

In the 50k kind of bracket which is what I suspect you mean, I personally couldn’t only because for me that is a massive amount of money for a couple of years experience and it’s money I don’t have to flutter away. However there are many parents who do pay those sorts of sums on horses needing vet maintenance to buy experience.

 

[Squeak]

It was their current horse that passed the vet with flying colours but is now not sound not the one they are viewing.

Doh! I’ll use the time of morning I replied as my excuse.

 

[VRIN]

You have one with lameness ... do you rally want to have that worry that something might go wrong??

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Definitely a no from me. You are buying another horse that has odds stacked against any long and meaningful career IMO. Do you really want to invest your horse buying budget on yet another hacking horse?

There are plenty of healthy and sound horses out there of the type you are looking for if you have the time and budget to find them.

 

[oldie48]

It would depend. How long has horse been having hock injections and which type are they, not all hock injections are equal. IME many advanced horses will have niggles from injuries and the level of work they have been doing but are happy working at lower levels and will give an inexperienced rider years of fun but they need maintenance. When buying a schoolmaster a lot of the value is in their temperament, proven ability and willingness to tolerate and teach a less experienced rider. I never underestimate how valueable this is. I'm currently riding an ex advanced eventer, aged 21 he is still keen to pop round a very decent track and does it easily (not with me, I hasten to add!) and would happily take a half decent rider round a BE 100 and probably Novice too. However, I doubt he'd pass a flexion test despite being sound on a tight circle. If I really liked the horse i would want the vet records to go to my vet and I'd do a vetting with the vet knowing exactly what I wanted the horse for. Any horse can end up as a field ornament but at least an older horse with a competition record has proven ability to stay sound whilst in hard work. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

[QUOTE="oldie48, post: 14778116, member: Any horse can end up as a field ornament but at least an older horse with a competition record has proven ability to stay sound whilst in hard work. Good luck with whatever you decide.[/QUOTE]

But the horse in question has not shown it has proven ability to stay sound has it? Just the opposite in fact.

It is having hock injections on a 6 monthly basis, so that is proof enough that there has been and still is a soundness issue. Nobody starts injecting anything into their horse,s hocks without good reason to do so.

I do agree that older schoolmasters are worth their weight in gold but only if they are still sound and have remained so without a huge question mark hanging over that soundness.

 

[oldie48]

[QUOTE="oldie48, post: 14778116, member: Any horse can end up as a field ornament but at least an older horse with a competition record has proven ability to stay sound whilst in hard work. Good luck with whatever you decide.

But the horse in question has not shown it has proven ability to stay sound has it? Just the opposite in fact.

It is having hock injections on a 6 monthly basis, so that is proof enough that there has been and still is a soundness issue. Nobody starts injecting anything into their horse,s hocks without good reason to do so.

I do agree that older schoolmasters are worth their weight in gold but only if they are still sound and have remained so without a huge question mark hanging over that soundness.[/QUOTE]
I was speaking generally rather than about this horse specifically but didn't make it clear, however, the OP has not said the horse is unsound and that it has a five year consistent record at the higher levels. I know of a fair few older advanced horses that have their hocks injected with HA as part of their maintenance programme

 

[chaps89]

https://www.doctorramey.com/what-ev...RSLUzunYK6FLzoDOKgCRVOz8eG3RKZ_LIS1DOJcSEu57g

This might be a useful read for you.
I think my concern would be she’s 12 which isn’t that old and needs to step down. You also say she hasn’t had any ‘major lameness’ and the medication is from an ‘old injury’
If I was you and seriously interested I’d want a full copy of her medical reports, to understand the full extent of the original issue and any niggles since then.
If you’re happy to write off the purchase price, she’s currently fit and in full work and you like her and are happy to just enjoy her for a few years, accepting she probably won’t make old bones and might need some talc along the way, then why not. Horses are hard enough work at the best of times, you might as well have one that makes you smile!

 

[ohmissbrittany]

So we are on the hunt for a new horse having faced reality that our current 7 yr old horse of a lifetime after 18 months of lameness issues is destined only to be a much loved hack. Luckily we have had a windfall and have the budget for a new horse and want one with experience at BE Novice and above to crack on with and have fun for the next few years. We have seen a few and favourite so far has been an 12 yr old mare who has competed at Advanced but more comfortable and successful at lower levels. She ticks most boxes and instantly clicked when ridden however she has been having 6 monthly hock injections and by the owners admission probably wouldn’t pass a vetting due to an old injury and would therefore be uninsurable. She has however competed for the last five years consistently and successfully at the higher levels without any major lameness. Her asking price is the high end of mid five figures so fairly substantial but negotiable. Is it too much of a risk? I believe this is called ‘serviceably sound’ in that the horse is sound enough to do a job but isn’t clean enough for vetting or X-rays? Head is def saying no having spent a fortune and maxed out insurance twice over with current horse who passed a vetting with flying colours 2 years ago but heart and a little bit of head is also saying her record speaks for itself and no horse is absolutely perfectly sound….

It's 100% possible... A lot of people get hung up on perfect x-rays etc. It's a load of crap, X-rays can't guarantee everything. But the owners have been honest about her management, you've seen a show record with no unexplainable long gaps, she's doing much more than you currently want to do with her. There might be different types of insurance to cover you, like not full medical insurance but at least loss-of-use or mortality would give you money back to buy another one. I don't think mortality/loss of use cover gets too expensive til after 16 but it's been a minute since i've carried that type of cover on mine (I've got mares, they'll either go into a hole in the ground or the breeding shed if something major happens, and I keep a credit card with £15k limit as my "insurance" for all the other things...)

You could spend 5 figures on a horse and have it break a leg in the paddock the day you buy it. If you love the horse and are honest about your ability to manage/cope with health concerns... I would say go for it.

 

[J&S]

I am sure this ex advanced horse you have tried seems really nice, despite the possible hock problems. But........ would you not rather find a sound, honest, less experienced horse who can gallop well and jump enthusiastically and put some training and finesse into him/her? I realise you could not "crack on " immediately but you would have a horse who could go up in experience, training and value rather than paying so much money for a horse who is sadly going to depreciate through age and wear and tear.

 

[Orangehorse]

It seems an awful lot of money for basically an unsound horse. Yes, you can hopefully keep it going and you wouldn't be looking to resell, so you are writing off the purchase price. But I think the vendors are being rather hopeful - although I admit not knowing much about the eventer horse market.

 

[millitiger]

It doesn’t sound unreasonable to me- many, many horses at a high level have injections to keep them on the road.

it would depend on price but assuming you can get access to vet records and I would still have a full vetting, I wouldn’t discount the horse.

I bought a 3*** eventer with a much worse vet record than that, 2 years ago, and I don’t regret it at all.
The feel and experience he offers is absolutely worth it- and I say that with him currently fat and hairy in the field with a DDFT strain which has come back to haunt him. However, I don’t regret buying him at all for the jumping he has given me so far.

 

[Alibear]

If I had a yard that could match his current regime in daily care, exercise, and rider skill level. Correct regular schooling keeps a lot of these older horses sound, change to a novice doing most of the work, and the wheels fall off, also, with vets who have experience of keeping these sorts of horses on the road. Then I'd consider it. But that can be quite hard to find outside of Pro yards.
The question is, why are they selling it now, sometimes it's because they know that although it's been manageable to this point, things are starting to get worse, so sell before that happens. Then you end up in a bad situation.

 

[Nicnac]

Yes but price would need to reflect ongoing vet needs. So many horses have their hocks medicated - some every 6 weeks - who are competing at a high level. Speak to any vet who treats competition horses and some of the things they'll tell you are rather eye opening for the amateur owner.

It wouldn't bother me but I have experience of a couple of horses with these needs. @Alibear makes some good points - are they selling as they want to continue to progress whereas the horse is now more comfortable at the lower levels?

There are horses out there at Novice level who are sound but may go lame tomorrow. It's a risk we take with any horse purchase - depends how risk adverse you are.....

 

[millikins]

Replying to this with no experience at all of higher level competing but I feel you are buying an animal with the ability to help you move up the levels whilst the horse is only ever going to move down them.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think 6 monthly hock injections for a 12 year old is not the normal I think its a lot and I wouldn't touch it personally.

I have a 16 year old that has hock arthritis and in 3 years his been medicated twice.

 

[ihatework]

I think 6 monthly hock injections for a 12 year old is not the normal I think its a lot and I wouldn't touch it personally.

I have a 16 year old that has hock arthritis and in 3 years his been medicated twice.

Is your 16yo competing at advanced Eventing???

Trust me, the about of vet maintenance needed to keep many event horses 100% comfortable and performing (like any top class athlete) is huge. It’s all about margins.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Is your 16yo competing at advanced Eventing???

Trust me, the about of vet maintenance needed to keep many event horses 100% comfortable and performing (like any top class athlete) is huge. It’s all about margins.

No his not but if I had a 12 year old that was and needed 6 monthly injections I would rather not compete the horse at that level.

But I suppose that is a different thread entirely ?

 

[ihatework]

No his not but if I had a 12 year old that was and needed 6 monthly injections I would rather not compete the horse at that level.

But I suppose that is a different thread entirely ?

Yes a completely different debate!

 

[rara007]

I wonder how many horses at that level don’t have that level of maintenance behind the scenes…
I’m not and never will be in (any time soon!) the market for a mid 5 figures horse. I really think you need the advice of trainers as well as people that know the horse. It’s undoubtedly a big risk.

 

[SO1]

By mid 5 figures you are looking at 50k for a horse that won't pass a vetting and needs careful management and can only compete at lower levels. If you already have one written off due to injury to a avoid the same disappointment you would be looking at a horse that would pass a vetting.

My understanding of hock injections is that there is a limit to the number of times they can be injected so you might want to know how many times they have been injected so far and if there is any other management issues. Arthritis normally gets worse over time so vet would need to be clear about the level of risk and level of work horse could stand up to and for how long.

What is the old injury that would stop her passing a vetting and what is the risk of it reoccurring.

 

[oldie48]

IME a good many 12 year old horses would benefit from having their hocks injected but their owners aren't aware of it because they are not asking their horse to collect and sit to any degree and horses are excellent at compensating for minor niggles, that's the benefit of having four legs rather than two. I said in an earlier post, it does depend why the horse is being medicated and with what and I think the assumption that a horse is "crocked" or lame because it's joints are being medicated is just not true nowadays. I am, of course, a bit biased as I know quite a few advanced horses (dressage and eventers) that are giving their riders a lot of fun and enabling them to ride safely and confidently at a higher level, which is great for bringing on their riding, most have some maintenance which can be expensive. The horse I am riding was retired from eventing as a 14 year old following a serious injury that put him completely out of action for a year, careful rehabbing and here he is 7 years later still going strong, whereas Rose, my own horse, who has had her joints done with HA is a field ornament with a hock injury, sustained in the field, that won't recover. I had her hocks x rayed for her vetting and fwiw they were absolutely clear. Horses are always a bit of a gamble!

 

[Bernster]

Such a shame about Rose ?

 

[Reacher]

Someone once told me only to spend on a horse the amount you could afford to write off.
If you (OP) spent your windfall on this horse and it went lame and had to be retired, can you afford to lose the money, ie what sort of money do you have at your disposal to get another horse if you wanted to?