Session 29 hot hot hot

[DabDab]

The silhouetted horse is giving an example of a horse that is on the vertical but not through from behind, this causes extra stress on the back that can cause kissing spine.

Oh good, I'm glad I remembered what I had read on that site vaguely right - I typed the above response a little quickly without checking the site and I was concerned that I might have got sites mixed up (there have been so many mentioned on the Armas threads). TBH I don't think the silhouettes are that helpful except for illustrating the head position - I think the photos they use are far more illustrative.
That's interesting about Jiao, I've only ever seen pictures of him riding, but you'd think with a father like Nuno...
Anyone know of any good videos of Jiao Oliveira?

 

[DabDab]

Just thought it was time someone mentioned PK! He seems to get up a lot of noses in the dressage world, but you've got to admit it, he's doing something right. If Armas was mine... I'd get a PK-accredited trainer to work on softening his mouth and encouraging him to seek the contact rather than evading it.

I actually think his mouth is probably already pretty soft (I think that may be part of his problem), and tbh I'm not entirely convinced that he is evading the contact because that implies that there is a contact there to evade in the first place. If you look at the beginning of some of the more recent sessions there is a period of time when the rider picks up the reins but before she starts messing that Armas moves into the contact well and there's no evasion in sight. I think that he needs some quiet consistency in his mouth and that it may be a while before he can deal confidently with adjustment.

 

[Allover]

Oh good, I'm glad I remembered what I had read on that site vaguely right - I typed the above response a little quickly without checking the site and I was concerned that I might have got sites mixed up (there have been so many mentioned on the Armas threads). TBH I don't think the silhouettes are that helpful except for illustrating the head position - I think the photos they use are far more illustrative.
That's interesting about Jiao, I've only ever seen pictures of him riding, but you'd think with a father like Nuno...
Anyone know of any good videos of Jiao Oliveira?

I was just having a look on youtube! Not found any yet, I got side-tracked by videos of Nuno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ldUsniI_k

Here is a good example of some "crude" riding on Nunos behalf Note though how when he is teaching the changes his riding changes to suit the movement of the horse but the aids that he gives will be the same ones that will need little movement down the line. It kind of explains what we arguing/agreeing about earlier on

 

[elijahasgal]

I havent watched the other videos nor all the way through, just snapshots.

Impression 1, in walk. Walk hurried. needs to be encouraged to slow the rythum
Overbent, which wont help, as it drops them onto forehand, and doesnt engage back

trot same, hurried, and held in overbent, blocking the horse. Again think of slowing rythum and encouraging forehand lighter and freer.

Halt.....she doesnt do a clear halt in the bits I saw, and is quite cross with him.


From what I saw, if I was riding, I would be schooling halt first. getting a clear defined halt. focussing on rythum and clear not hurried hoof falls.

If he drops behind the vertical, I would be lifting my hands, and taking the bit into a light contact with his mouth, lowering them to normal when he reaches forward for the contact, which will be more comfy. this will also encourage him off his forehand.

I would let him stretch down and forward immediatly he asked first times he asked, and then start making him wait.

I would be doing several transitions, focussing on walk halt, walk trot, trot walk, not dropping onto his forhand.

when he had strength to carry himself more on his quaters and was thinking calmer slower, then introduce canter, just a few strides then trot, so canter doesnt become go go go wizz wizz in his head.

but thats me personally. it takes time, but he looks a kind horse to me

 

[DabDab]

I was just having a look on youtube! Not found any yet, I got side-tracked by videos of Nuno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ldUsniI_k

Here is a good example of some "crude" riding on Nunos behalf Note though how when he is teaching the changes his riding changes to suit the movement of the horse but the aids that he gives will be the same ones that will need little movement down the line. It kind of explains what we arguing/agreeing about earlier on

I think more agreeing than arguing as it turned out Yes that's a really good example of what I was getting at - a crude/over exaggerated version of the correct aids.

I feel I should comment (after all this discussion), that I didn't actually have any of your previous posts in mind when I made my original comment But if that video had been posted on this forum and it was an unknown rather than Nuno riding I am almost sure there would be some comments to the effect of 'why is he moving his body so much' 'why is he waving his legs around' etc.

 

[Allover]

There's a picture of a perfect piaffe (the grey horse) at the bottom of this article by Philippe Karl. It's also an interesting read if you're not too put off by the dodgy translation and the baffling maths formulas.

http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/print.php?storyid=6&location_id=0&topicid=

I think it's obvious the difference between this and the silhouette on the Sustainable Dressage site.

You can also see PK performing piaffe right at the end of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbWh_VpIN8Q

IMHO - beautiful.

Just thought it was time someone mentioned PK! He seems to get up a lot of noses in the dressage world, but you've got to admit it, he's doing something right. If Armas was mine... I'd get a PK-accredited trainer to work on softening his mouth and encouraging him to seek the contact rather than evading it.

However Armas's owner doesn't seem interested in classical riding!

I'll go back to lurking now.

It is strange isn't it, Armas is the perfect horse for it too

I also suggested a trainer in France that would have been good for James to consider. Even if it is just to get an idea of why he is disinterested in the more classical approach and not poo poo it without having at least some understanding of it

Happy lurking. It is safer that way

 

[Allover]

I think more agreeing than arguing as it turned out Yes that's a really good example of what I was getting at - a crude/over exaggerated version of the correct aids.

I feel I should comment (after all this discussion), that I didn't actually have any of your previous posts in mind when I made my original comment But if that video had been posted on this forum and it was an unknown rather than Nuno riding I am almost sure there would be some comments to the effect of 'why is he moving his body so much' 'why is he waving his legs around' etc.

I know!!! What strikes me most about his riding is his hands, they are never backward. They are just "there" for the horse all the time and the horse is always forward, even when he is asking it to go backward.

I seem to have a thing about hands, I think it comes from my old trainer shouting "not with the hand"- in varying tones of frustration - at me for months I am more guilty now of being too soft with the hand which is almost as bad!

I have to say I have quite enjoyed these last few threads, I have not been thinking about this sort of stuff for ages for one reason or another so it has been good to go back and have a recap!

 

[Cortez]

There's a picture of a perfect piaffe (the grey horse) at the bottom of this article by Philippe Karl. It's also an interesting read if you're not too put off by the dodgy translation and the baffling maths formulas.

http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/print.php?storyid=6&location_id=0&topicid=

I think it's obvious the difference between this and the silhouette on the Sustainable Dressage site.

You can also see PK performing piaffe right at the end of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbWh_VpIN8Q

IMHO - beautiful.

Just thought it was time someone mentioned PK! He seems to get up a lot of noses in the dressage world, but you've got to admit it, he's doing something right. If Armas was mine... I'd get a PK-accredited trainer to work on softening his mouth and encouraging him to seek the contact rather than evading it.

However Armas's owner doesn't seem interested in classical riding!

I'll go back to lurking now.

The silhouetted horse is not performing piaffe 'tho; it's passage. And yes, PK's piaffe is lovely.

 

[DabDab]

I know!!! What strikes me most about his riding is his hands, they are never backward. They are just "there" for the horse all the time and the horse is always forward, even when he is asking it to go backward.

I seem to have a thing about hands, I think it comes from my old trainer shouting "not with the hand"- in varying tones of frustration - at me for months I am more guilty now of being too soft with the hand which is almost as bad!

I have to say I have quite enjoyed these last few threads, I have not been thinking about this sort of stuff for ages for one reason or another so it has been good to go back and have a recap!

Oh god me too - I have to force myself to look away from riders' hands. The instructor I had as a kid was forever taking my reins away: if I socked the pony in the mouth over a fence I would be jumping for the next 20 minutes without my reins and equally, if I used them to balance in a transition I would lose them. That instructor always impressed upon me how terribly precious a horse's mouth is and as a result I tend to get a little frustrated when other people don't seem to share that care for a horse's mouth.

When I bought my youngster last year he was a bit of a thug to lead and tended to either bomb off or stand up on his back legs. As I was training him in a head collar one day the yard owner asked me why I didn't just put a bridle on to lead him (unbacked, never had a bit in youngster), and when I replied that I didn't want to ruin his mouth by using a bit to haul him back or pull him down from rearing she looked at me as if I had two heads.

 

[Allover]

The only thing that annoys me more than bad hands is bad hands with draw reins!!! With regards to your youngster, you should have popped him in a chifney