Setting up a livery yard - advice pls.

James-Stephens2014 said:
Thank you everyone again. The farm is busy enough on the crops and this thread is making me concerned about the undertaking. Maybe a manager is a good idea... my house is big enough to offer live in etc as finding someone local may be tricky.... hmmm lot of thinking to do!

Still no dating PMs :p
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If you feel you may not have time to be a yard manager then def get one in, a yard runs more smoothly if there is someone actually there making decisions / getting stuff done / keeping the peace.
I'm on a DIY yard with a very 'hands off' YO. It can be frustrating when you hear nothing from them for weeks, then a flurry of snippy notes appear on the board.
Luckily we are a good bunch and generally just get on with each other and don't abuse the place....but the hands off style wouldn't work if a livery or two decided to cause trouble.
 
I've kept my horses on working farms consistently for the past 4 years between where I am now and my ex's farm. I think it's manageable DIY, so long as there is a bit of management on your part.

My ex had only a few liveries, and very much left them to their own devices. Great stables in a barn with electric and water with adequate grazing, however no real facilities as such. No school, lunge area, individual paddocks etc. They were low maintenance, had one field to use as they wished, fencing, riding etc. and had field margins to hack on. Personally I only had my horse there as she was out of work and at the time it was convenient, should she have been in work I would need the facilities. The liveries they had were good as far as I knew although I didn't ever really chat to them as my horse was on a different part of the farm, but I think the point I'm trying to make is I think those who aren't basing themselves somewhere with a school may be less expectant of you and facilities they want, so long as it is reflected in the price too.

Where I am now is a large working farm, arable, sheep, open weekends, shoots etc. and have been there consecutively for about 2.5yrs. It is a large DIY livery yard, but then it is a large working farm 4-5 farm staff members, plus a dedicated secretary. There are approx. 50 horses and we have 2 schools, stables dotted in different barns across the farm and hopefully (fingers crossed) we're getting another specific lunge pen and walker (there have been talks for a year regarding the lunge pen and the walker has been in parts on the yard for at least a year, I'm not holding my breath!). I think it's easily workable to be DIY, but with 7 stables, maybe wouldn't bring in enough revenue? We're all aware that yard maintenance will get put on the back burner when it's time to make hay/ harvest but the general routine still remains which helps. We can only have hay/ straw/ bedding from the farm, everything is ordered during the week and delivered on a Monday. If you forget there's a surcharge added to your bill. We clear the jump school of jumps on a Sunday and it's rolled/ harrowed on a Monday. It's all about keeping up your end of the deal to keep liveries happy I think. Honestly - and I don't think it's just because I avoid yard drama like the plague - I think the yard runs well, sure there are things I'd personally improve on, but I think that's the same with any yard. We all get along and we're never overly expectant as liveries as the standards have been set from the start, so we all know what to expect.

I'm rambling really but just wanted to put across my 2p re. the DIY option also. I could ramble more on the benefits of both to be honest, I'm sure we all could(!), so feel free to ask any more questions.
 
I'd let it as a whole to one person, let them throw down some sand on a small paddock so it drains better and let them ride in there - it would do for most of the year

Spending a lot of money on an arena that you will have to maintain is a hell of a lot of money to spend on people who in many cases dont look after it while still moaning that the livery is too expensive - I dont see how any DIY livery yard owner stands a chance of making their money back on such a large expenditure
 
James-Stephens2014 said:
Why does he have to be a farmer out of interest..?
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Well, I can't see myself being married to an accountant, let's put it that way. I'm attracted to young farmers, just my type I guess, I can't help myself! Plus, it would be my dream to live on a working farm and run an equestrian business from it, but I don't have the money to buy one and never will so the only solution I see is to marry into it :D
 
I'm another with a dream to run an equestrian business - perhaps you should advertise on here for your yard manager?! I'd relocate for the right 'package' (no double entendre intended!!) 😄
 
Thank you everyone. Renting the yard to one person sounds like a winner but how would there be money in that for them by the time they hve paid a rent?

Otherwise I am pricing up trying to fill it with part/full liverys, put in a outdoor school and then employ a manager. 75% horses and 25% farm work. Food and accom included... and I would actually treat them properly unlike these poor grooms that get the p*ss taken out of them!
 
James-Stephens2014 said:
Thank you everyone. Renting the yard to one person sounds like a winner but how would there be money in that for them by the time they hve paid a rent?

Otherwise I am pricing up trying to fill it with part/full liverys, put in a outdoor school and then employ a manager. 75% horses and 25% farm work. Food and accom included... and I would actually treat them properly unlike these poor grooms that get the p*ss taken out of them!
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I rent a similarly sized setup (but including a house), and am under no illusions that I do it to pay for my own horses, rather than as a super-profitable business, and I think that's how many people see it. If I were you, I'd make sure that any takers (if you decide to rent it as a whole) have a viable business plan/existing business, and the acumen to run a business properly. Someone like this will be more likely to pay their bills, look after the horses in their care properly, and look after your yard. There are a lot of dreamers out there, who will jump in with their eyes firmly closed, and end up making a mess of things. Formal qualifications aren't the be all and end all, but they are an indicator of someone's experience, as is previous experience of running a yard successfully.

Just be aware that if you choose to employ a manager, you will also be inundated with people with stars in their eyes. It wold probably be wise to get someone very experienced to assist you with the interview process, so that they can ask the questions that wouldn't necessarily be obvious to a non-horsey person, but will effectively rule out anyone who isn't up to the job. Sole charge management is pretty easy when things are going right, but takes a special sort of person when it comes to the tricky stuff - like telling an owner that their horse needs to be put to sleep on welfare grounds, or getting tough with non payers, or sorting out yard battles! Offering live -in accommodation is great, but with it not being a separate house, you're more likely to get youngsters than the sort of older, vastly experienced people that you actually need. There are young people out there who could do it, but they are few and far between.
 
James-Stephens2014 said:
Thank you everyone. Renting the yard to one person sounds like a winner but how would there be money in that for them by the time they hve paid a rent?

Otherwise I am pricing up trying to fill it with part/full liverys, put in a outdoor school and then employ a manager. 75% horses and 25% farm work. Food and accom included... and I would actually treat them properly unlike these poor grooms that get the p*ss taken out of them!
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Sounds an absolutely perfect job for me...I'm young vivacious, a fellow farmer, know my beans around horses, and would love to be treated proper.... you sound perfect for me...are you ugly?....:)
 
Not sure who is being serious and who isn't here..... in all seriousness i have spoken to my accountant/advisor to put together a employment package for someone as Described above and also spoken to my land agent about possible rental value. See what the cash flow forecasts look like!
 
James-Stephens2014 said:
Not sure who is being serious and who isn't here..... in all seriousness i have spoken to my accountant/advisor to put together a employment package for someone as Described above and also spoken to my land agent about possible rental value. See what the cash flow forecasts look like!
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How rich are you?? In relation to my first question it might not matter too much dependant on your answer? By the way I'm 6'2", long legs, built for shearing sheep, oh and male..... but my border collies love me! :)
 
Lammy said:
If it helps I've just moved to a farm situated livery yard and this is what we have:

For £130 a month:

New internal stables in an airy barn with 2 spare for tying up
Outdoor concreted tie up area
Free unlimited straw included
Old container converted into a feed room so plenty of room and keeps the mice out!
Secure tack room with plenty of space, a kettle and a fridge
Lovely outdoor school
Good turnout only 2 minutes walk from the stables and plenty of grazing
Amazing hacking, bridleways everywhere and his own 400 acres which we're allowed to use as long as there's no livestock in there.
A toilet :)
Excellent security - all gates locked once he's finished on the farm and he does a late check before he goes back inside.

And we're trying to convince him to get us a warm horse shower for the winter :D

It's really lovely and I feel very lucky, the farmer does all the land management and keeps the fields looking well and his wife is a very good and experienced horse woman who offers assistance when needed and holiday cover. This might be why it's worthwhile for you to have a "designated yard manager"? If you can find the right people.

And also just to warn you, he's already had to ask two non-payers to leave and he only opened his gates in February! So be picky with who you invite onto your land.

Also forgot to mention we're only in Northants so not overly far from you either so I shouldn't think pricing would differ too much? Hope this helps! :)
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£130 a month seems incredibly cheap for that!!
 
James-Stephens2014 said:
Not sure who is being serious and who isn't here..... in all seriousness i have spoken to my accountant/advisor to put together a employment package for someone as Described above and also spoken to my land agent about possible rental value. See what the cash flow forecasts look like!
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Rental value in general is around £25/box a week depending on facilities and then if they need acc thats on top. From a fellow farmer that did it think very carefully it can interfere to much with the core business unless it is well away from your main yard and not worth the aggro. Not sure you are truly getting the hassle involved . Certainly dont do it yourself and employ a manager for many reasons as many things will haunt you . Let it(let the Land agent deal with it) and let somebody else take the entrepreneurial risk. In our case we had 35 boxes it accounted for less than 4% of our income but took up 25% of our time it was one of our best days when the last one left. All your liveries will take over the management of your core business! However having loads of women about in tight jods may give you beer goggles as far as the overall business is concerned.
 
If you can entice a pro eventer/sj/Dressage type I'd think that would be your best bet... although they are likely to want accomodation with it
 
It's only seven stables there's no way that will support you paying someone a wage .
Much better rent it as a whole it's a small yard you will get pros starting out and families wanting to be freed from DIY livery hell if you are flexible you might get two or three friends sharing .
The land agent will tell you the going rate for the area .
There's plenty of grass so I would expect you will be overwhelmed with interest .
 
only_me said:
£130 a month seems incredibly cheap for that!!
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I get the same but ad lib haylage, and it really is ad lib but not bedding for £140 a month about 15 miles away on the other side of town. All year turn out, off road hacking from the yard, my own tackroom although its only about 6ft x 10ft, its still mine. And hes even let me store my cart in the barn, he even took the wheels off for me the other day when I didnt know how to do it. The man is obsessed with maintenance as well, so the place is so well kept. Its only flaw is its 7.5miles away in the wrong direction for work, but its worth it for me :)
 
Goldenstar said:
It's only seven stables there's no way that will support you paying someone a wage .
Much better rent it as a whole it's a small yard you will get pros starting out and families wanting to be freed from DIY livery hell if you are flexible you might get two or three friends sharing .
The land agent will tell you the going rate for the area .
There's plenty of grass so I would expect you will be overwhelmed with interest .
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A businessman bought a successful yard near me a couple of years ago, having seen the books looked good, on paper he thought it was a way to make money, he soon found out that employing a manager took all of the "profit" and sold it on before he lost even more, a decent wage going out every month will leave the owner with nothing but they still have the bills to pay, if a livery leaves it will probably run at a loss that is assuming you can even get the yard full of full liveries in the first place.

Most people wanting full livery will expect a lot of facilities, they will be prepared to pay for a good service ad will want it 7 days a week which will mean another staff member to cover the managers day off, someone renting the whole lot will expect to do 7 days a week it will be a lifestyle choice not a job.
 
I am going to wait and see what accountant comes back with regarding a employment package. Someone doing the horses and also farm work would be good. The funds are there for a school and I have room for more stables/turnout and loads and loads of private hacking on the farm. It's the economy of scale that's the question.

It would also give me a outlet for hay, straw and haylage.

It's whether employing someone live in is going to cost £20k or 30k or 40k etc. That has a big impact. But I know that grooms don't get treated very well and the right person given the opportunity to really run a yard starting with a blank canvas should appeal to good people. Also being treated like a human regarding holidays, pay etc.

If I put 7 more stables up in other side of the barn and add a bit more grazing, and get full liverys at £120pw that's 14 x £120 which is good. That will cover financing the school and give a good return per acre on the grazing. Plus it uses up the barns that aren't suitable for grain.
 
James-Stephens2014 said:
I am going to wait and see what accountant comes back with regarding a employment package. Someone doing the horses and also farm work would be good. The funds are there for a school and I have room for more stables/turnout and loads and loads of private hacking on the farm. It's the economy of scale that's the question.

It would also give me a outlet for hay, straw and haylage.

It's whether employing someone live in is going to cost £20k or 30k or 40k etc. That has a big impact. But I know that grooms don't get treated very well and the right person given the opportunity to really run a yard starting with a blank canvas should appeal to good people. Also being treated like a human regarding holidays, pay etc.

If I put 7 more stables up in other side of the barn and add a bit more grazing, and get full liverys at £120pw that's 14 x £120 which is good. That will cover financing the school and give a good return per acre on the grazing. Plus it uses up the barns that aren't suitable for grain.
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Sounds like you've got your head screwed on right - and done right, it could be a super yard.
If you have 14 full liveries - your person isn't going to be able to work on the farm too. To do a horse well on full livery, incl mucking out, turning out, bringing in, grooming, doing feeds, and so on takes around an hour a day per horse - and that's if the horse doesn't also need exercising. 14 full liveries is a lot for one person - I'd be looking at one full timer and one part timer for that many.
 
Thank you so based on your hourly workings - There are currently 7, so that's 7 hours a day... 7 x £120 = £840pw... that's reasonable! And cheap!
School will cost me around £10k as have a digger myself and am decent at driving it, also have loads of clean stone and drainage pipes. That's a decent investment return.

Just need figures back from accountant and then try to find the perfect employee!!! That's the hard bit I suspect.
 
Sorry OP just to burst your bubble its not that simple . Paying one and half people ,feeding ,hay and bedding for seven horses you wont see any excess to pay back the investment . I was starting to be fooled into thinking you were for real! You can make £175 clear a week with no input!
 
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James-Stephens2014 said:
Thank you so based on your hourly workings - There are currently 7, so that's 7 hours a day... 7 x £120 = £840pw... that's reasonable! And cheap!
School will cost me around £10k as have a digger myself and am decent at driving it, also have loads of clean stone and drainage pipes. That's a decent investment return.

Just need figures back from accountant and then try to find the perfect employee!!! That's the hard bit I suspect.
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Not sure why you need figures back from an accountant as you can do it on the back of a fag packet. LOL
 
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