Severe and rapid weight loss

I've not read the replies, but you need to get your horse scoped immediately for stomach ulcers. These can be caused by the windsucking, and if he was doing this more and staying in more when it was snowing then it is highly likly that all these things have caused the ulcers to flare up. They also cause extreme weightloss. They are very very painful and i would suggest not riding or exercising your horse until the vet has scoped him.

Im only see this as I myself am just recovering from stomach ulcers and it is the most painful thing i have ever experienced, all i wanted to do was curl up in a ball and sleep, but i couldnt because the pain was so bad. Now i know how horses feel who have them :(
 
would def be worth getting bloods done to also test liver function as my mare was loosing weight , dull coat etc i got her scoped for ulcers but it turned out shes go a liver problem, shes doing ok nowv although still has a long way to go, as if its a liver problem you need a low oil , protein diet as only when i changed my mares died when we knew what was wrong she started to pic up so would def get a blood test if you can, as would also show up underlying infection etc
 
Today when the vet came out, he basically said that its deffinately his diet and that he wasnt going to scope him because he would need to refer? He did his teeth, basically said what he said last time and said whatever we are doing now hes puttingon weight so keep going with it. hes only putting on about 10 kg a week, so is this not enough or too much??
Although hes putting it on the weigh tape you cant see if that noticeably on him.
The ilph bloke basically said that he doesnt need to come back either coz we are doing everything the vet is telling us to and thats not a welfare case, and that if it were us not doing what the vet said then he would have to become involved. So thats good to hear, now he can go and report to the psycotic woman who sold me him that in actual fact i do feed him :)

Thanks for all your suggestions guys, il update with how hes getting on :)
 
Get it on some decent grazing, and your horse will probably improve incredibly quickly.

Didn't realise this had become a welfare issue.
 
If it turns out not to be ulcers you should mention chronic peritonitis to your vet. My tb had the same thing, suddenely off his food, fluctuating temperature, miserable, and severe weight loss despite him having plenty of pasture and feed given daily. Treatment depends on the type, but for finn he required antibiotic shots for 5 days (penicillin) and bute powder in his feed for about a week. The only definitive test is sticking a needle into the animals abdomen (i didnt have this done) as blood tests cannot really indicate it, but if nothing else is working it could be worth mentioning to your vet. Hope this helps.
 
Hi - My mare had got (and gets repeat episodes) of stomach ulcers. The first time we treated with Gastroguard after scoping and they healed well then all of a sudden she lost a huge amount of weight, became very lethergic and was clearly dehydrated which then triggered a colic reaction which then disguised the fact that the first problem was the weight loss. Took a while to figure out but we now believe and treat her like she has Inflamatory Bowel Disease (IBD), not sure wether this caused the ulcers or the ulcers caused the IBD, or indeed if totally unrelated considering how common ulcers are these days. Unfortuantely there are no good tests which can definatively check for this, so we treated for it (streriods) and she responded well so we can assume that it was IBD.

Ongoing this is a pain to deal with but manageable, I have her scoped whenever I can to check for ulcers but whilst in there we check for any swelling or discolouration around the bowel (the part that the scope can reach), I then give her steriods for a little bit and keep a very close eye on behaviour and habits for any other tell tale signs that I have learned over time.

May be worth looking into if you dont have any other explanation for the weight loss, hope you figure it out.
x
 
I bought a really poor TB a few years ago, nothing seemed to put weight on her and the more I fed, the more stressed she become. I moved her to a farm with very good grazing and within months she was a different horse.
 
We are looking for good grazing at the minute, not really anything near us available so we are asking about etc. He really needs a lot of good grass and where are yard is is really sandy so the grass doesnt grow all that quick or... hardly ever
 
Dray123.. I just noticed you dropped in there at the last minute that your grazing is very pooor and sandy??

Agree with what everyone else has said.. however! Low grade repetitive colic, weightloss etc these are signs of sand colic. If he is a poor doer, it is likely that as the grazing is poor he is hoovering up sand.

You need to get some Psyllium husks, should be available in feed shop (or they are sold under brand names, sand out, clear out sand -X etc)
Give him a big dose, then collect some of his poo and dissolve it in a clear plastic jug and let it settle. If you can see sand at the bottom, that means he has a build up of sand in his gut, which irritates the stomach lining and makes it difficult for food to be absorbed.
Its worth trying as its not expensive and at least you can rule out sand ingestion as a cause. PM me if you want any advice, I have unfortunately been through this many times.

Also second getting a worm count done, although these don't show encysted red worms or tapeworms.
 
I should have mentioned also, when a horse moves to sandy pastures, it takes around 12 weeks for sufficient sand to build up in their system before any symptoms appear.
Neglected/ poor doers always do worse on sand than other horses.

Don't feed psyllium everyday as it loses effectiveness. Should only be for one week out of four, try some bran mash on the weeks in between to help keep everything clear.
 
I have had quite a few skinny tb's.

The best thing I can advise is ad lib haylage, four feeds a day of alfa-a with oil and a conditioning mix (1 scoop alfa/1/2 conditioning mix) in each feed, and oil.

Also lots of turnout.

If the vet has said there is nothing wrong you need to asses your management.

Good luck - if you want further help let me know.
 
get his teeth rechecked
get an egg count and bloods for tape worms done- re-worm him with something like equest promax.
chat the the vet about scoping for ulcers.
having him out is probably the best thing but he needs decent grass as well as hay. does he stress in the field? is he out on his own? is he cold at night?
feed wise- concentrated energy feed is great- like the oil based products- little and often is best.
but it does sound like its an underlaying issue not do to with lack of feed...
 
Just to update you all :

We called our old vet out and he did a glucose test. The results came back today and they were 5.1 at starvation and 5.9 after the 3rd hour. According to the vet on a "normal horse" they should of been at least 10.5.

We are not sure of the cause of this atm, it could be something to do with his pancreas, small intestine or damage caused by the severe worm burden. The vet is doing some more investigating and I'll keep you updated as to what happens.

After all of this it's not about his feed at all. The vet we had before we went back to our old one is a plonker and does not know what he is talking about! He gave us a diagnosis of : its us feeding him wrong, and we should contact D&H - said without examining my horse, taking unneccessary bloods and costing me a fortune!!


So happy we finally are getting somewhere now! :)
 
dray123 said:
Just to update you all :

We called our old vet out and he did a glucose test. The results came back today and they were 5.1 at starvation and 5.9 after the 3rd hour. According to the vet on a "normal horse" they should of been at least 10.5.

We are not sure of the cause of this atm, it could be something to do with his pancreas, small intestine or damage caused by the severe worm burden. The vet is doing some more investigating and I'll keep you updated as to what happens.

After all of this it's not about his feed at all. The vet we had before we went back to our old one is a plonker and does not know what he is talking about! He gave us a diagnosis of : its us feeding him wrong, and we should contact D&H - said without examining my horse, taking unneccessary bloods and costing me a fortune!!


So happy we finally are getting somewhere now! :)
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Wasn't this linked to another thread I commented on a wee while ago?
So I take it that the horse has malabsorption: I'll be interested to know results of further workup!

Good luck.
 
Just to update you all again on this thread too :

Starting this Monday we are trying him on a 2 week course of steriods with our fingers crossed he gains weight or improves somehow.
The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows?
Im a bit baffled by the fact that the lady who sold me possibly couldn't of known about this somehow, I only had him 8 weeks before he lost all the weight and this whole nightmare started. Anyone know if there is anything that can be done with regards to the owner essentially selling me a ill horse although saying there wasnt anything wrong with him?

Il update you again in two weeks
 
dray123 said:
The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows?
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I had a pony diagnosed eventually with this.:(
A steroid injection that he had once made his diarrhoea worse. I hope this isn't the case with your fella. Watch out for gingivitis aka gum disease.
Thinking of you and sending strength.

Just to say my fella was/appeared normal and well and suddenly developed severe diarrhoea. Maybe a coincidence but he started soon after we moved to a rented farm.
 
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Have treated a few horses with same in recent mths. All had good outcomes (except one who was PTS for unrelated veterinary problems diagnosed at the same time). Hope you get a good response to tretment.
 
amandap said:
I had a pony diagnosed eventually with this.:(
A steroid injection that he had once made his diarrhoea worse. I hope this isn't the case with your fella. Watch out for gingivitis aka gum disease.
Thinking of you and sending strength.

Just to say my fella was/appeared normal and well and suddenly developed severe diarrhoea. Maybe a coincidence but he started soon after we moved to a rented farm.
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Could you tell me a bit about it? Completly new thing to me, I've done a little bit of research about it but didn't find much. Is it a fatal condition or will Jase's treatment of steriods "cure" it or is it not that simple?
 
dray123 said:
Could you tell me a bit about it? Completly new thing to me, I've done a little bit of research about it but didn't find much. Is it a fatal condition or will Jase's treatment of steriods "cure" it or is it not that simple?
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I'm afraid I can't. I had the same problem researching and the vet wasn't much clearer so I made the assumption it was a sort of 'only thing left' diagnosis.
I don't know if it's fatal and from glenruby's post it isn't.:We had no choice but to treat him symptomatically vitamin B injections etc. depending on his bloods which began to show liver damage and anaemia as time went on.
Tbh I'm not 100% certain the diagnosis of my boy was correct more that it was all the vet was left with as a possible cause. In view of steroids seemingly the treatment my boy may well not have had protein loosing enteropathy.

Sorry if I've caused confusion but this was my experience. I'd have a word with your vet about prognosis but it does sound that most have a good outcome.
 
dray123 said:
Just to update you all again on this thread too :

Starting this Monday we are trying him on a 2 week course of steriods with our fingers crossed he gains weight or improves somehow.
The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows?
Im a bit baffled by the fact that the lady who sold me possibly couldn't of known about this somehow, I only had him 8 weeks before he lost all the weight and this whole nightmare started. Anyone know if there is anything that can be done with regards to the owner essentially selling me a ill horse although saying there wasnt anything wrong with him?

Il update you again in two weeks
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The problem is with conditions like this that they are essentially "silent" in all clinical ways until it rears it's ugly head - possible due to a completely unrelated trigger factor.

I realise it's frustrating, but it is most likely the previous owner genuinely didn't know anything about any of this. Moving the horse into a new regime may have been enough to exacerbate the inflammation in the bowels that was ticking along ok until that time. Age related changes also occur and new environments will alter ongoing worm challenge - anything could have tipped the horse over the edge from subclinical to clincal...
Sorry, but I think you should probably stop focusing on whether the previous owner knew or not and where to lay blame and just focus on the horse and his current issue. I know you care a lot about this horse, but sadly the only thing you can do anything about is him, not the history. :o

dray123 said:
Could you tell me a bit about it? Completly new thing to me, I've done a little bit of research about it but didn't find much. Is it a fatal condition or will Jase's treatment of steriods "cure" it or is it not that simple?
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Protein losing enteropathy (PLE) is what happens as a consequence of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) or some other conditions which turn the bowel wall effectively into a colander. The lining of the gut wall is made up of lots of cells tightly bound together. When inflammatory cells invade the gut lining these bonds are weakened and protein can "leak" out of the gut. Eventually, water will follow the protein and will settle in the most dependent part of the body (i.e. sheath/under the belly). This shows up as a plaque of swelling under the belly or in the sheath and is known as ventral oedema. Not all horses show this. Some horses will also start showing diarrhoea to a greater or lesser extent, some may not. Most present with weight loss or often, failure to gain weight in the face of an increased feed regime.

The big question is what is causing the PLE?
There are many things - IBD being the most common group of diseases and lymphoma is possibly next most common. As I said before, without doing an intestinal biopsy of an abnormal and inflammed piece of the intestine, it is impossible to pinpoint this exactly.

It's quite an expensive and invasive test to get a specific diagnosis- especially when consider the treatment options don't vary in any case. All these conditions are not really "curable"; more "manageable".

The good news is they are often very manageable and horses often respond very well to dietary adjustment as well as steroids. The steroids reduce inflammation within the gut wall and in acute cases may be enough for a "remission".

This however sounds more like the vet is assuming there is old worm damage - I can't remember if you have had a tapeworm ELISA test run in all of this? I suspect it will be or was high.

If the cause of the PLE is from scarring due to mass emergence of worms at some point, the scarring will stay permanently, but may be well managed with steroids. I would recommend that you are ever rigorous with your worming protocol and always worm 2xyearly for tapeworm regardless of the poo count (unless the ELISA result was low!).

Obviously if there hasn't been a biopsy done, then scarring is the most likely, but not the only cause.
IF the treatment doesn't work, then you may be left with the vet re-examining the cause of the PLE - and looking more towards lymphoma. Please don't panic, most of these patients do cope on the steroids ok too.

The final thing to mention IMO is that while the vet has put the horse on a 2 week course to start with, this won't "fix" him in the most likely scenario. It should give you and the vet a reasonable opportunity to see if he responds - although personally IME I find where weight conditions are involved I need at least a 4-6 week course to really tell me anything. I suspect your vet will want to reassess in 2 weeks and then keep going for a longer period in any case.:o

I would be aware that this type of condition is often about the long term management, so be prepared for long term vs life long medication to be on the cards.

Hope that helps
Imogen
 
havent read all the replies, so sorry if im repeating.

BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP. If he's out, make sure he's rugged enough- get a worm count and try and keep him as calm as possible- if this means living out then so be it. The windsucking is a big issue as it brings on the threat of ulcers, to my knowledge a vet cannot rule ulcers out just by looking at a horse, surely he would need to scope? i stand to be corrected. i had my mare scoped and they didnt find anything. her weight loss is down to stressing when boxed- weaves and box walks. i avoid stabling her where possible and swear by good hay and ble chip.

if he crib bites, i bruch cornucresine (sp) on the gate/fence- no horse in there right mind likes the taste!

good luck x
 
jessandthegirls said:
havent read all the replies, so sorry if im repeating.

BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP. If he's out, make sure he's rugged enough- get a worm count and try and keep him as calm as possible- if this means living out then so be it. The windsucking is a big issue as it brings on the threat of ulcers, to my knowledge a vet cannot rule ulcers out just by looking at a horse, surely he would need to scope? i stand to be corrected. i had my mare scoped and they didnt find anything. her weight loss is down to stressing when boxed- weaves and box walks. i avoid stabling her where possible and swear by good hay and ble chip.

if he crib bites, i bruch cornucresine (sp) on the gate/fence- no horse in there right mind likes the taste!

good luck x
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We've found out whats wrong with him and hes got a malabsorption problem, so its a lot more serious that what we origionally thought and not that its a feed problem. Thankyou for the blue chip recommendation tho :)
 
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