Severe Separation Anxiety

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CluelessShowjumper

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Genuine SOS.

We have consulted vets. He’s been on Prozac and potassium bromide. Nothing worked.
This is also not a new thing. I’ve had him for 4.5 years and he’s been like this from the beginning albeit not as bad.

My horse has the worst separation anxiety I have ever seen in a horse.

He is so attached to two particular horses in his barn that he cannot go out in the winter paddocks next to anyone else because he fence walks for hours. If one of those horses leaves their stable even to be tied up in the barn right in front of him he weaves constantly until they are back in their stable.
On a hack he naps and goes backwards (we have gone backwards around a whole field as every time I turned him to go forwards he tried to nap again), spins and rears if I am on my own (this only seems to happen in winter).

Yesterday I took him out competing and it’s the worst he has ever been.
He weaved the whole way to the show in the trailer (I have a camera).
He was fence walking the trailer when we took him off, literally walking the length of it and turning back rinse and repeat.
Calling every horse that passed. It took 3 of us just to tack him up!
I couldn’t even turn around and get something out the boot of the car for fear of him trying to snap the tie and bugger off.
Once on and in the arena he napped in both classes and rushed around so fast.
Then back at the trailer once loaded he was calling anyone that would listen, weaving so terribly that the whole trailer was moving and trying to rear inside the trailer.
As soon as we got back to the yard and let down the ramp and undid the bars, he shot out like a rocket before I could even move out the way and galloped off into the sunset (literally) towards the fields (no horses there as they were all in).

I love to compete. But I cannot take him out if he is going to be this bad every single time. He is bad enough as it is, but yesterday I would have paid someone to take him home to a home that wasn’t his….😔

He is getting progressively worse. In summer he is somewhat ok but this winter is the worst I’ve ever had him.

It’s not fun and I’ve totally lost all patience with him as there is absolutely no rhyme or reason for it.

Do I give up and full loan him from the yard (I can’t sell a horse like this and I won’t let him leave as he is not easy to deal with)? Do I PTS as this to me screams very unhappy horse. Do I keep trying?

(We cannot take a companion to a show as he naps to get back to the trailer).

If anyone has any ideas or help please please share it. I may have tried it but any help is appreciated.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
He sounds so stressed and barely coping so being removed from his friends tips him over the edge. I'd get a full vet workup and scope for ulcers.

Is he on individual turnout? It really doesn't suit some horses.
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As said at the top, he has had the vets out. We have tried him on Prozac and potassium bromide.
It is not ulcer related. He has been like this since I got him and has become progressively worse.
He cannot go into a herd/with a friend as he becomes even worse.
In the summer he is better but the winter he is worse and this winter has been genuinely the worst I have ever had him.
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
As said at the top, he has had the vets out. We have tried him on Prozac and potassium bromide.
It is not ulcer related. He has been like this since I got him and has become progressively worse.
He cannot go into a herd/with a friend as he becomes even worse.
In the summer he is better but the winter he is worse and this winter has been genuinely the worst I have ever had him.
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So you've had a full workup and scoped him?
 
To be honest if this is purely behavioural it's a question of severe insecurity which the individual turnout is probably worsening.
He might get worse in the short to medium term, but I'd be inclined to bite the bullet and turn him out in a herd (perhaps turn away for 6-12 months) and see if you can get his stress levels back down to a point where you can usefully work with him. It sounds like he's constantly at capacity right now, so the chances of being able to reschool him to be less nappy are pretty slim unless you can reduce his general stress levels significantly.
Unfortunately turning them out with only one other can make them overly attached, but a (stable) herd means they are less likely to attach themselves so closely to one other horse.
I appreciate that livery yards make stable herd turnout very difficult, but I think you'll have an uphill struggle trying to fix this as it stands.
 
From what you’ve described he sounds borderline dangerous to himself and others to box up and compete. Some horses just aren’t mentally built to be competition horses.

It sounds like he’s out on individual turnout, which personally is not something I would do with a horse that suffered from separation anxiety.

You sound at breaking point with this horse, in your position I think I’d chuck him out for winter in a herd and revisit in spring, for both your sanity.
 
If he were mine, I'd ditch all ideas of competing him, find somewhere he can be turned out with a herd and let him decompress and just let him be a horse. I don't believe you can productively work with a horse that is in a constant state of anxiety. You need to find a place where he can chill and breathe before starting to do anything else with him.
Have a look at TRT. It has a big focus on teaching the horse to find relaxation.
 
If you have had a full work up done from top to bottom and the vet has absolutely no health concerns what so ever then this does sound like a very unhappy horse. I couldn’t loan him in good conscience to anyone. He couldn’t even be a companion as he is.

If he’s not happy stabled and isn’t happy turned out and all he is doing is stressing himself out then I would honestly be considering pts if I had exhausted all avenues.

I’ve worked with nappy animals, I’ve worked with separation anxiety but not as bad as what you seem to be dealing with. If an animal is spending that much time of its day and is triggered by so much you have to think is this kind.
 
Going to agree with others, it sounds like his current setup is not working for him. A herd where he can have real social contact with other horses may make the biggest difference. Although many horses cope with individual turnout, some simply can't.

I would look to an equine behaviourist, they will be best placed to assess what needs aren't being met and advise on next steps. You can look at the ABTC register to find someone local.

I will also say that you can never rule out pain 100%. If you look on the forum you will find many many threads on here where people have "ruled out pain" or lameness, only to find pain later. I know several people irl who have been in the same situation and I don't know that many people!!
 
Unfortunately turning him out in a herd or with another horse makes him worse. This yard is wonderful and the only yard that has accepted him for who he is, the liveries don’t complain about his issues and they treat him as an individual.
In summer he was absolutely fine with the individual turn out and would come in to the barn happily on his own.

Come winter….its a whole different story. The paddocks are smaller and they are out for less time but he is actually much happier in than out.

I agree that he can’t compete like this and I agree that I cannot find a loaner even if kept at his current yard.

He is a very unhappy, stressed out horse and yes, he will become a danger to himself if I cannot help him.

4.5 years of this is a lot for any horse owner to deal with and deal with and try to help him I have as I adore him.
 
smolmaus said:
Going to agree with others, it sounds like his current setup is not working for him. A herd where he can have real social contact with other horses may make the biggest difference. Although many horses cope with individual turnout, some simply can't.

I would look to an equine behaviourist, they will be best placed to assess what needs aren't being met and advise on next steps. You can look at the ABTC register to find someone local.

I will also say that you can never rule out pain 100%. If you look on the forum you will find many many threads on here where people have "ruled out pain" or lameness, only to find pain later. I know several people irl who have been in the same situation and I don't know that many people!!
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I did a full lameness work up only 3 weeks ago as I was worried about something else. Vet looked at me like I was mad and had called them out for no reason. Horse was flexed, lunged, trotted up and ridden. Everything physically has been checked recently.
Short of scanning his whole body there is nothing left physically for me to check.

This is really a behavioral issue that is getting progressively worse as winter goes on.
 
Only speaking from experience but my horse is neurotic (though not to the extent of yours) and used to be a nightmare about other horses coming in from the field/leaving the barn etc. He was on individual turnout and very attached to the horses next to him, always had to be first in/first out. Couldn't stand in the wash-bay on his own without having a meltdown etc.

He moved at the start of summer to share a field with another horse who is not stabled near to him and has transformed into the most chilled out horse who handles 'life' much better. For the first few days he was still quite attached to his previous neighbours movements as he could still see them - would kick off if he saw them come in from the field, hang around by the fence closest to them etc. and I thought it's not going to work, he needs the emotional security of those horses. But then, he just got over it. He's now very happy in his new field, doesn't care if those next to him come in or even if his field-mate comes in during the day without him to be ridden. I'm not sure if it helps that his field-mate and neighbours aren't stabled near him so he hasn't developed such an attachment that they 'do everything together' or that individual turnout just didn't work for him and made him feel insecure in general, but it has been game changing for him and he is a much happier horse now.
 
VictoriaSponge said:
Just to clarify I think myself and others were suggesting having him completely turned away and living out in a herd, retirement style, so he’s not constantly having horse coming and going.
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Unfortunately if I was going to retire him; I think he would be better off being PTS.
But it was a good suggestion thank you.
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
I did a full lameness work up only 3 weeks ago as I was worried about something else. Vet looked at me like I was mad and had called them out for no reason. Horse was flexed, lunged, trotted up and ridden. Everything physically has been checked recently.
Short of scanning his whole body there is nothing left physically for me to check.

This is really a behavioral issue that is getting progressively worse as winter goes on.
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He's not been scoped. I can't understand why you're so convinced he's not got ulcers.

If you're not willing to turn him away for a period of time, scope, or get a second opinion re pain, it would be the kindest thing to pts.
 
VictoriaSponge said:
Just to clarify I think myself and others were suggesting having him completely turned away and living out in a herd, retirement style, so he’s not constantly having horse coming and going.
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That was what I was thinking. Let them down, do nothing with them and let them find themselves. If a horse can't even enjoy turnout when there's no expectations, then a decision would have to be made for the future.
As the OP has said the horse has got worse, the current yard/set up is not right and maybe need to look at trying something different.
Good luck with him. Really hope you can find a solution.
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
I did a full lameness work up only 3 weeks ago as I was worried about something else. Vet looked at me like I was mad and had called them out for no reason. Horse was flexed, lunged, trotted up and ridden. Everything physically has been checked recently.
Short of scanning his whole body there is nothing left physically for me to check.

This is really a behavioral issue that is getting progressively worse as winter goes on.
Click to expand...
Calling it behavioural doesn't help him or you though. The behaviour is him communicating that he is unhappy.

If you're looking for social permission to look at putting him to sleep it is always a viable option if it stops suffering. I dont think anyone is going to tell you that without also advising other things though.
 
This behaviour being worse in winter is a huge indicator that orthopaedic pain is a contributing factor, you just haven’t found it yet, they don’t need to be lame to be in pain. I’d be imaging neck/back as a starting point.

Horses need other horses, you describe him as worse when out with others but I assume you mean worse for you to do things with rather than unsettled when actually out in a herd.

My first port of call would be to turn him out 24/7 in a settled herd that doesn’t change so the poor guy can decompress and start to feel some safety and security. He is extremely chronically stressed which is why he can’t cope with anything. He will have gut issues simply from the huge level of stress he is under. But the most important thing that will support him is sorting a living environment he feels safe in. He sounds traumatised.
 
I also had mine scoped and he was completely clear. Not that I'm saying don't rule it out, but I spent a long time looking for a medical issue I could fix when I think all his issues stemmed from his environment not suiting him and a few small tweaks have made the world of difference - so I would definitely move mountains to find the right set-up for him before writing him off. You can't underestimate how much that low-level anxiety of being unhappy runs through everything they do - he wouldn't stand on the box at shows, flipped out in warm-ups when any of the horses left to go in the ring, bolted out hacking. I had trainers tell me he was too sharp, erratic, I could never expect him to behave like a 'normal' horse, he was a 'problem child' through and through. He is now one of the easiest horses on the yard.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
He's not been scoped. I can't understand why you're so convinced he's not got ulcers.

If you're not willing to turn him away for a period of time, scope, or get a second opinion re pain, it would be the kindest thing to pts.
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Where did I say that he hadn’t been scoped? This was talking about a lameness work up.

He was scoped for ulcers before I moved to this yard 7 months ago as he had lost weight and become impossible to deal with.

He was clear.

He’s actually in the best condition I have ever had him in.

Again…this is behavioural. He has had separation anxiety since I got him 4.5 years ago and it’s become progressively worse.

He was turned away for 6 months in a small herd and it didn’t make a difference. In fact it made him worse. Hence why I said I would rather PTS.

How dare you insinuate that I haven’t done any vet investigating/question what I have done/that I’m not willing to help and investigate my horse.
I have come on here to ask if anyone else has dealt with anything like this as an online forum and community is my last resort just in case I have missed something tiny that neither myself nor numerous vets have picked up in the past 4.5 years.
 
AWinter said:
This behaviour being worse in winter is a huge indicator that orthopaedic pain is a contributing factor, you just haven’t found it yet, they don’t need to be lame to be in pain. I’d be imaging neck/back as a starting point.

Horses need other horses, you describe him as worse when out with others but I assume you mean worse for you to do things with rather than unsettled when actually out in a herd.

My first port of call would be to turn him out 24/7 in a settled herd that doesn’t change so the poor guy can decompress and start to feel some safety and security. He is extremely chronically stressed which is why he can’t cope with anything. He will have gut issues simply from the huge level of stress he is under. But the most important thing that will support him is sorting a living environment he feels safe in. He sounds traumatised.
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Being out in a 24/7 herd made him worse. He wouldn’t let anyone in the herd leave and when the vets and farriers came he rounded up the herd and made them run. I have videos of this. We tried this for 6 months.

I have X-rays of neck and back. He has no changes. Again I’m not just saying this. I have investigated until the cows come home and I’m now looking to see if anyone else has dealt with a horse like this before I make the decision.
 
KikiDee said:
I also had mine scoped and he was completely clear. Not that I'm saying don't rule it out, but I spent a long time looking for a medical issue I could fix when I think all his issues stemmed from his environment not suiting him and a few small tweaks have made the world of difference - so I would definitely move mountains to find the right set-up for him before writing him off. You can't underestimate how much that low-level anxiety of being unhappy runs through everything they do - he wouldn't stand on the box at shows, flipped out in warm-ups when any of the horses left to go in the ring, bolted out hacking. I had trainers tell me he was too sharp, erratic, I could never expect him to behave like a 'normal' horse, he was a 'problem child' through and through. He is now one of the easiest horses on the yard.
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We have been asked to leave yards before because of his behavior and have tried a few set ups including me having my own yard for a year. This is the only yard that he has been remotely settled on. During the summer he was incredible. It all changed in winter.
 
Ok I am going to give you some suggestions to try, if he were my horse- putting a horse to sleep would be last option.

He is a very stressed horse so always work one thing at a time. Weaving is an absolute bugger to stop once they start. Make sure you have the weave grill above the stable.

Stable:
Give him something to do so he can concentrate on that rather than weave or scream for others. Treat ball every day like a routine - you can even give him his dinner in a treat ball (if mix of pellets). Switches his mind to doing something, which relieves stress. Give him a new routine
Put a mirror inside the stable - you can buy them


Turnout:
Ok so I will go against the grain and say that individual turnout is what I would do as they can get so attached to each other. For me this isn’t a big deal as I only have mine individual anyway- my years of kicked horses and injuries bring me to that turnout decision.

Trailer:
Only travel alone
Get a lickit and hang from the front to give him something to do and not weave
Put a plastic mirror in the trailer on the other side to what he is traveling on so he can see another horse
If you have an ifor Williams get a head separator grill- he won’t be able to swing his head to weave

Tack him up in the trailer do not get him out and tie up. My own horse used to paw and call to get off at a shoe when I bought him. Now he knows he will be in the trailer for a while eating hay while I get him ready. He is 17.2hh and I have plenty of room to get him ready. Getting them off is a bad idea and they really get used to just staying in the trailer

Napping
Without fail have someone lead you to the ring for the next two months. We had a mare who we bought written off as unrideable. One of her issues was napping. Within two months of her being led to the ring each time with the rider on, she had forgotten all about napping

In a nutshell, you need to get that partnership - as when it’s just the two of you the horse looks to you. It’s going to be many little things you do. Plenty of encouragement and praise and repeat the same behaviours every day

Good luck
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
Being out in a 24/7 herd made him worse. He wouldn’t let anyone in the herd leave and when the vets and farriers came he rounded up the herd and made them run. I have videos of this. We tried this for 6 months.

I have X-rays of neck and back. He has no changes. Again I’m not just saying this. I have investigated until the cows come home and I’m now looking to see if anyone else has dealt with a horse like this before I make the decision.
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I have worked with horses like this in a professional capacity. Finding a stable herd where his friends don’t need to be taken out of sight (think walk-in barn/stables so horses can be trimmed etc right next to the herd, perhaps a retirement livery) and then working within that environment with a behaviourist (look for a qualified clinical animal behaviourist not a horsemanship trainer who calls themself a behaviourist, he does not need groundwork, DM me your area and I can guide you) to start with some counter conditioning around his friends leaving would be where we would go. I would not even consider trying to ride this horse for a very long time. His stress bucket is overflowing and every time he is taken away from other horses it is pouring.

Obviously I haven’t seen him in person but I meet so many horses who have been cleared for pain who I am convinced are in pain, so we go for 2nd/3rd opinions and we find things, very often neck/spine/congenital stuff that has been missed when their behaviour is extreme like this, usually paired with gut issues.

There is so much more to this than just turning him out, but it’s too much and too detailed to put into a post. We’d be looking at reducing his allostatic load as much as possible, which means absolutely anything in his life that is contributing to his stress load.
 
Spiderpig2009 said:
Ok I am going to give you some suggestions to try, if he were my horse- putting a horse to sleep would be last option.

He is a very stressed horse so always work one thing at a time. Weaving is an absolute bugger to stop once they start. Make sure you have the weave grill above the stable.

Stable:
Give him something to do so he can concentrate on that rather than weave or scream for others. Treat ball every day like a routine - you can even give him his dinner in a treat ball (if mix of pellets). Switches his mind to doing something, which relieves stress. Give him a new routine
Put a mirror inside the stable - you can buy them


Turnout:
Ok so I will go against the grain and say that individual turnout is what I would do as they can get so attached to each other. For me this isn’t a big deal as I only have mine individual anyway- my years of kicked horses and injuries bring me to that turnout decision.

Trailer:
Only travel alone
Get a lickit and hang from the front to give him something to do and not weave
Put a plastic mirror in the trailer on the other side to what he is traveling on so he can see another horse
If you have an ifor Williams get a head separator grill- he won’t be able to swing his head to weave

Tack him up in the trailer do not get him out and tie up. My own horse used to paw and call to get off at a shoe when I bought him. Now he knows he will be in the trailer for a while eating hay while I get him ready. He is 17.2hh and I have plenty of room to get him ready. Getting them off is a bad idea and they really get used to just staying in the trailer

Napping
Without fail have someone lead you to the ring for the next two months. We had a mare who we bought written off as unrideable. One of her issues was napping. Within two months of her being led to the ring each time with the rider on, she had forgotten all about napping

In a nutshell, you need to get that partnership - as when it’s just the two of you the horse looks to you. It’s going to be many little things you do. Plenty of encouragement and praise and repeat the same behaviours every day

Good luck
Click to expand...
thank you!

Unfortunately he weaves behind a weave grill and doesn’t play with toys but I do have some of those plastic stable mirrors in my Ifor so I will take them out (as they don’t make a difference in there) and try them in the stable. Although he is in a barn stable with bars and not walls so he can see everyone at all times. Maybe he just needs to see himself. He won’t eat a lickit but will borrow a treat ball from him neighbour before I buy one and see if that works.

I didn’t think about putting my head partition in the trailer to stop the weaving. Will try that. Thank you.
How do you manage to tack up in the trailer? He’s 17.2 aswell. He has to travel with the partitions (we tried the single bars and it was too much space and he was awful). Please let me know your tacking up tricks in the trailer.
He paws and shouts and rears and kicks out if left on, so any ideas welcome. We go out for lessons, hacks, to the beach so not just shows.

Actually yesterday I had to be lead in and the same at the previous show. So will continue with this. He also naps towards the gate for instance the first fence yesterday was towards the gate and I just about managed to keep him in and circle so I could jump the 2nd fence.
 
Spiderpig2009 said:
If you have an ifor Williams get a head separator grill- he won’t be able to swing his head to weave
Click to expand...
From personal experience I’d be very cautious with this, as you’re stopping the behaviour but not addressing the cause. The weaving is a coping mechanism for an overwhelmed horse, I’d be very careful about denying him this outlet in a confined space like a trailer. The last thing you want is him to panic and create more dangerous behaviours.
 
Yes determined weavers will find eventually anywhere to get their weaving fix - so you need to give him something to take his mind off it.

The grills in the trailer will mean he can’t get the swing in his neck weave but you must give him something else to fill the need for his mind. If he won’t have toys you could try a Swede with a hole drilled through the middle and tied up with baler twine. They can bite it and a smaller one they can eat with no ill effects. You can hang it in the trailer.

I have an Ifor also - I travel mine in the left side because he prefers the padding on the left wall. I also have the partition in. I just put the saddle on from the right hand side and just squeeze down the left to do the girth up. The bridle I put on from the front, but I don’t have the head divider in you may need to remove that or just find a way to get the bridle on

Without fail be led to the ring every time when you go into a class. Over time I have found they just forget. When hacking get someone to lead you out the yard. I wouldn’t bother hacking on your own for a while until you have got a bit more trust between you
 
VictoriaSponge said:
From personal experience I’d be very cautious with this, as you’re stopping the behaviour but not addressing the cause. The weaving is a coping mechanism for an overwhelmed horse, I’d be very careful about denying him this outlet in a confined space like a trailer. The last thing you want is him to panic and create more dangerous behaviours.
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See below…you give them something else to do. It’s a real problem in racehorses, and the finding is that herringbone in a lorry due to the head partitions either side mean they don’t weave in lorries usually. It’s the same thing but in the trailer version

I think also given how stressed he is I would probably spend a few weeks giving him his dinner in the trailer and then taking him off again. Just build up the time in there so he becomes more used to it without going to a show. You can build up the time so that he isn’t coming straight off and he is used to being in there without anything else exciting going on.

It sounds like he is lacking in confidence all round so just take your time with him and build that partnership. Possibly don’t go to any shows for a while until he is more relaxed in the trailer and you will both have a better experience when you go to shows as well
 
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