Severe Separation Anxiety

Spiderpig2009 said:
See below…you give them something else to do. It’s a real problem in racehorses, and the finding is that herringbone in a lorry due to the head partitions either side mean they don’t weave in lorries usually. It’s the same thing but in the trailer version

I think also given how stressed he is I would probably spend a few weeks giving him his dinner in the trailer and then taking him off again. Just build up the time in there so he becomes more used to it without going to a show. You can build up the time so that he isn’t coming straight off and he is used to being in there without anything else exciting going on
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The dinner thing is a very good idea. Weirdly he’s very happy going onto the damn trailer: he self loads and doesn’t try to come out again.

I need to add that he is a TB. I have owned them my whole riding career (going onto year 40 now) and have never had one that has had any of these issues. I find the TB’s so talented and misunderstood.
He came off the track at 7 and I have since found out that he he has always weaved and always had separation issues.
 
Spiderpig2009 said:
Ok I am going to give you some suggestions to try, if he were my horse- putting a horse to sleep would be last option.

He is a very stressed horse so always work one thing at a time. Weaving is an absolute bugger to stop once they start. Make sure you have the weave grill above the stable.

Stable:
Give him something to do so he can concentrate on that rather than weave or scream for others. Treat ball every day like a routine - you can even give him his dinner in a treat ball (if mix of pellets). Switches his mind to doing something, which relieves stress. Give him a new routine
Put a mirror inside the stable - you can buy them


Turnout:
Ok so I will go against the grain and say that individual turnout is what I would do as they can get so attached to each other. For me this isn’t a big deal as I only have mine individual anyway- my years of kicked horses and injuries bring me to that turnout decision.

Trailer:
Only travel alone
Get a lickit and hang from the front to give him something to do and not weave
Put a plastic mirror in the trailer on the other side to what he is traveling on so he can see another horse
If you have an ifor Williams get a head separator grill- he won’t be able to swing his head to weave

Tack him up in the trailer do not get him out and tie up. My own horse used to paw and call to get off at a shoe when I bought him. Now he knows he will be in the trailer for a while eating hay while I get him ready. He is 17.2hh and I have plenty of room to get him ready. Getting them off is a bad idea and they really get used to just staying in the trailer

Napping
Without fail have someone lead you to the ring for the next two months. We had a mare who we bought written off as unrideable. One of her issues was napping. Within two months of her being led to the ring each time with the rider on, she had forgotten all about napping

In a nutshell, you need to get that partnership - as when it’s just the two of you the horse looks to you. It’s going to be many little things you do. Plenty of encouragement and praise and repeat the same behaviours every day

Good luck
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This is terrible advice! Hes weaving to cope with enormous levels of stress. He shouldnt be going out competing. Its not benefitting him at all, and just adding to his stress.

You are suggesting ways the horse can be shut down and forced to comply. That isnt something that anyone horse should have to do
 
In your position I wouldn't dismiss the idea of turning away - I'd start with the winter to give both you and him time to decompress. Your replies sound very stressed and defensive, which I totally understand - you feel you have done everything you can for him - it's frustrating.

Few questions
  • you say he's in the best condition he's ever been, have you changed his feed recently?
  • you've moved yards, is the management routine different? (less/more turn out etc)
  • you've mentioned he is worse in winter, does he have hay in the field while turned out?
  • have you had a body worker look at him? I had one look at my lad that 'had nothing wrong with him' and the findings were interesting and gave answers.
  • how old is he?
From what you have said I think something is wrong somewhere and the anxiety is a behaviour, but from the result of trigger stacking.

On a race yard he would have done everything in groups so now living a solo lifestyle would be stressful for him. from what I've read i don't think he's PTS material but he needs a very different management style to help him cope. I'd suspect there are ulcers in the hindgut that aren't visible from scoping.
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
We have been asked to leave yards before because of his behavior and have tried a few set ups including me having my own yard for a year. This is the only yard that he has been remotely settled on. During the summer he was incredible. It all changed in winter.
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Erin is a bit like this at the moment, I suspect it’s just the fact it’s winter, as she’s been in more than usual, and not working as much. She’s also not away from Saus as consistently, so probably more anxious. They are being a bit dangerous to bring in/out of the field but I’ll be working on that over the holidays. I would be happy to let you know my plans for this on PMs, as it’s a bit long and convoluted for one post!

Unless I can work consistently for more than 3 days in a week, I don’t bother with riding because it’ll just be upsetting for both of us. I do still do groundwork and in-hand walking.

Competing isn’t really that important in the grand scheme of things (unless it’s your entire job). You and your horse will survive without going to a competition, so it might be worth taking a break until you can do more consistent work, and to smooth through these issues.
 
Few things you can do, depending on timing/budget/yard:

Get a bio-energetic hair test done. A lot of people will say it’s nonsense, but certainly helped one of my horses.

Use a horse communicator - there are some good ones about, and may give you some insights.

Rob Jackson (horseback vet) does chiropractic work, and I’ve found him very good with ex-racers. I’d also be looking at trying some equine touch/masterson method with him.
 
From a nutritional point of view I can understand where there may be a winter shortfall in nutrients, compared to summer, when you say he’s more stable in behaviour.

It sounds like the set up is the same - out to graze, individual paddocks, then brought in overnight, both winter and summer.
The main difference is grazing time out, and time extended in stable over winter?
Nutritionally, in summer, the grass is growing freely, which gives more nutrients that are lacking in most hays - mainly chlorophyll, magnesium + whatever profile the soil has in your particular area of micronutrients - but I’m just focusing on the macro for the moment.

Green grass has grams of magnesium in it. Grass growth in winter reduces in volume and quality considerably. As you’ve said he’s different between the 2 seasons, nutritionally this is the biggest difference = his electrolytes shift.
Also the massive difference in summer V winter is sunlight hours and strength of sun = vitamin D.
He’s on more hay in winter which generally has high calcium/potassium and low magnesium/phosphorus.

If you can mimic his summer diet in winter - by adding magnesium + vitamin D…or even just a general balancer, but bear in mind they generally have low magnesium levels, except forage plus, you could find he reverts to summer behaviour.

Stress uses up magnesium quickly. Magnesium itself helps vitamin D be absorbed - both nutrients do so many biological processes in the body an alteration of dose can affect behaviour and health.
Many balancers include vitamin D but not enough magnesium - the vitamin D will pull magnesium from tissues to be absorbed, causing a temporary mag deficiency in muscles/blood, increasing calcium causing stressy behaviours. As we give these horses balancers daily, the behaviour loops - and people then say “that balancer made him spooky”, understandably.

Don’t dump him on high dose magnesium immediately - correct the imbalance with low dose, slowly increasing week by week and observe any differences.

If you could get grass pellets, that are green - not hay pellets - they would be a natural alternative to get natural magnesium into him.

Electrolyte imbalances causes a stressy response, and behaviour can easily shift. I experienced something similar myself with a supplementing dose error, and was beyond myself with jittery sensations. If I was a half tonne horse, I’d have been classed as very stressy!

It’s something worth trying, as it’s the obvious difference nutritionally between summer and winter that I can see. He may want others around to help regulate himself. If they’re calm he can mimic and be calmer, hence their presence is very much more needed in winter.
The rushing round and being very energised when competing but weaving and planting when asked to be still, fits very much into the profile of electrolyte imbalance jitteriness as adrenaline momentarily acts like a pain reliever and energiser.

As you/re ‘at the wire’ with this behaviour, a slow low dose increasing slowly addition of magnesium/green grass nuts, I’d try personally, before thinking of more drastic choices.
If he’s on alfalfa in winter, maybe change that, as that’s high in calcium and will cause an even more imbalanced electrolyte state…needing more magnesium to balance it. Hay anyway is higher in calcium than grass, so that combined with lower magnesium intake from fresh grass, can tip the scales of electrolyte imbalance.
 
He sounds like a more severe version of my mum's tb.

The only thing that has helped is starting with tiny amounts of separation (few minutes out of sight) and making it as pleasant for him as possible with a human standing by his head (because he will lick people when he's nervous), absolutely not restraining him from his stupid weaving, in an environment he feels safe (for him that is the stable with a haynet and bucket of food). But minimal fuss when the other horse is brought back like, 'ok, see, they went for a bit but they're back and everyone survived, it absolutely wasn't the end of the world'. I actually screwed up big time earlier in the year because I took my mare out for a walk not once but twice with him still in the field and no nice distraction (hay or food). And he's gone backwards a lot, I was really daft.
But he's retired in a stable herd without animals coming and going or the stress of travel/competition, so doesn't get very bonded to just 1 horse or constantly have horses vanishing from his life permanently. It also helps that I found out his whole history right from when he was a foal including talking to people who knew him in racing and am still in contact with the owners that had him before us, so know why he is the way he is. He's also been tested for Cushing's and had a lot of pain/lameness investigations plus had liver support for a bit a few years ago, then periodically retested until enzymes had been steadily normal - because pain/physical discomfort can make them insecure and on edge and whilst it's unlikely to produce anxiety as severe as your horse's on its own, could be contributing to make it worse.

In your shoes I would honestly retire your horse, he sounds miserable and fundamentally unsuitable for what you want to do. I don't think mum's gelding would cope anymore in a less stable setup, he's too neurotic and we've agreed if we lost our land for whatever reason and it was pts or move to a high traffic coming &going yard we'd probably pts. You could certainly improve your horse I think but equally it wouldn't be unreasonable or unfair to opt for euthanasia if retirement isn't an option or you don't think he'd cope with a move. (Probably get slated for saying that, but you've clearly tried a lot, and imo pts is for when an animal is suffering and further intervention might not help, but just prolong that suffering, and I think it should include mental suffering as well as physical).
 
tristars said:
How much work does he do and for how long

Would be interested if you could tell us please



Also what exactly is his diet
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He’s in work 6 days a week -
30-45 mins (including warm/cool) in the school or if hacking 45-90 minutes usually just walking as fields too slippy to do anything else so on the road and fields.

He’s on Saracens Releve, MSM and Glucosamine, brewers yeast and he gets electrolytes daily.
 
What area are you ? My friend had a very neurotic horse who sounded very similar , she had a natural horsemanship guy out weekly for several weeks, I don’t know exactly what he did but it worked!

Do you use a calmer? I had a similarly neurotic pony (he did have a health condition though ) I found keeping him hot helped and rig calm. What weight rugs are you using ?

What do you feed ?

Hope you get it sorted I know the dread of coming to the yard with anxiety , hoping I’m not about to be confronted with his behaviour stories.
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
He’s in work 6 days a week -
30-45 mins (including warm/cool) in the school or if hacking 45-90 minutes usually just walking as fields too slippy to do anything else so on the road and fields.

He’s on Saracens Releve, MSM and Glucosamine, brewers yeast and he gets electrolytes daily.
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Could you switch his feed to a non molassed one free from all the additives ?
 
I really feel for you as Rocky is a very stressy horse and his go-to is to weave like a maniac any time he’s triggered. It sounds like you’ve tried everything and if he’s as bad as you make out I would definitely be thinking about PTS if you can’t afford to send him to retirement livery.

@Spiderpig2009 your advice is a bit like saying to a person going through the worst morning sickness, “Have you tried ginger?”. I’m sure if the OP’s horse could be settled by a hanging swede they wouldn’t be posting on here at their wit’s end…
 
Are people just not accepting the fact that some horses are just too mentally damaged? I mean when does it become a welfare concern by keeping them going when they sound this unhappy?

You can try everything til the cows come home, you can exhaust every medical avenue, every livery set up and every turnout option.

As much as I would sympathise with any owner going through this I would not be happy as a person paying livery if I couldn’t do anything with my own horse because of someone else’s.

The OP seems to know what she has to do for this poor horse. He is just clearly too stressed and has too many triggers for this extreme behavior. I couldnt watch my horse suffer like this every time another horse moved or something changed. It honestly sounds like a miserable existence for horse and owner 😓😓 so so sad.
 
I would look at Warwick Schiller because he has some really good work on this. These are very old now and he has a lot more up to date stuff about helping horses to learn to relax and also keep their attention on you if stressed about the their mates.



Horses are herd animals and they have to learn to be comfortable round humans. Warwick really has some great stuff and I have used tonnes of his stuff over the years with tricky horses. Things like redirecting their thoughts and how to get relaxation.

You might never overcome it because it's so ingrained. Would be interesting to know what his foal to 3 years was like. I suspect you can make it a bit better though.

At horsemanship showcase a few years ago I did attend a Behaviourist talk about her own horse who has very severe desperation anxiety and she used a fairly common-sense approach to sorting. I didn't get any huge insights into anything ground breaking.
 
Has he always been on MSM? My normally fairly sensible mare turned into a quivering mess on MSM then went back to normal when not on it. Her paddock mate (who was the more neurotic one!) was absolutely fine.
 
CluelessShowjumper said:
He’s in work 6 days a week -
30-45 mins (including warm/cool) in the school or if hacking 45-90 minutes usually just walking as fields too slippy to do anything else so on the road and fields.

He’s on Saracens Releve, MSM and Glucosamine, brewers yeast and he gets electrolytes daily.
Click to expand...

The saracens is loaded with soya hulls, beans and oil - which for many horses in this forum triggers gut/behavioural issues. There is just intolerance to 1 ingredient to consider which can send some horses over the edge, especially if fed daily. Alfalfa is another trigger reported on here often.
Legumes can be a bit tricky for horses because of the way they are digested. Out in the wild their exposure to legumes are extremely limited, and their physiology hasn’t necessarily developed over the ‘relatively short domesticated’ years to handle such feed stuffs in fair bulk daily.

Also soya oil in saracens has a ratio of more omega 6 to 3 oils. When he was out at grass the omega 3 in that would have helped balance out the soya oil heavy omega 6 dose. But as grass consumption drastically drops during winter, the inflammatory omega 6 from Releve soy oil dominates their system, while anti-inflammatory omega 3 from grass drops significantly. In humans the brain effects from omega 3&6 are studied, and there’s a relief of depressive/headache brain states in some who increase omega 3.

The saracens also has a wonky electrolyte ratio - which if we consider hay also has a wonky electrolyte balance, and you’re adding extra electrolytes - let’s assume that’s a balanced mix for ease - it still could mean the electrolytes are out of whack….which only gets more pronounced as time goes on, which generally fits with owners declaring ‘they’ve got worse slowly over time’, accounting for ever increasing imbalance occuring.

If the horse is otherwise healthy, talented and everything you could have wished for despite this behaviour, I’d consider an equine nutritionist consultation to check and see every single thing you’re giving him is within tolerable ranges. It’s very easy with multi supplemental feeds to unknowingly feed imbalanced macro-nutrients, or be feeding 1 ingredient that particular horse just cannot tolerate.

Soya has dominated horse feeds now, because it’s so bloody cheap in bulk, and my own horses handle just a certain dose, and no more, or they are spicy.
Sometimes it’s not the feed per se, but the dose.
A nutritionist can help zoom in glaring obvious imbalances that feed companies just won’t ever admit to their products being imbalanced.

Sometimes, it’s recommended to strip the feed right down to hay/forage/grass, balanced electrolytes with balanced minerals + water. Get everything else out of their system and see what their baseline is, then re-introduce feeds slowly, to see if there’s a culprit to be identified.
As he is in regular work, those nutritional balances matter, and will become more obvious than a horse at rest/retired.
 
My mare who I’ve had since she was 6 has always had separation issues. She now has her own little companion pony to herself and I can remove her from her to bring into ride but can’t take companion pony away from her ever! That’s her only vice! She used to nap when we first her out hacking but with time and patience, she is now fine!
Is a companion pony an option?
 
PurBee said:
From a nutritional point of view I can understand where there may be a winter shortfall in nutrients, compared to summer, when you say he’s more stable in behaviour.

It sounds like the set up is the same - out to graze, individual paddocks, then brought in overnight, both winter and summer.
The main difference is grazing time out, and time extended in stable over winter?
Nutritionally, in summer, the grass is growing freely, which gives more nutrients that are lacking in most hays - mainly chlorophyll, magnesium + whatever profile the soil has in your particular area of micronutrients - but I’m just focusing on the macro for the moment.

Green grass has grams of magnesium in it. Grass growth in winter reduces in volume and quality considerably. As you’ve said he’s different between the 2 seasons, nutritionally this is the biggest difference = his electrolytes shift.
Also the massive difference in summer V winter is sunlight hours and strength of sun = vitamin D.
He’s on more hay in winter which generally has high calcium/potassium and low magnesium/phosphorus.

If you can mimic his summer diet in winter - by adding magnesium + vitamin D…or even just a general balancer, but bear in mind they generally have low magnesium levels, except forage plus, you could find he reverts to summer behaviour.

Stress uses up magnesium quickly. Magnesium itself helps vitamin D be absorbed - both nutrients do so many biological processes in the body an alteration of dose can affect behaviour and health.
Many balancers include vitamin D but not enough magnesium - the vitamin D will pull magnesium from tissues to be absorbed, causing a temporary mag deficiency in muscles/blood, increasing calcium causing stressy behaviours. As we give these horses balancers daily, the behaviour loops - and people then say “that balancer made him spooky”, understandably.

Don’t dump him on high dose magnesium immediately - correct the imbalance with low dose, slowly increasing week by week and observe any differences.

If you could get grass pellets, that are green - not hay pellets - they would be a natural alternative to get natural magnesium into him.

Electrolyte imbalances causes a stressy response, and behaviour can easily shift. I experienced something similar myself with a supplementing dose error, and was beyond myself with jittery sensations. If I was a half tonne horse, I’d have been classed as very stressy!

It’s something worth trying, as it’s the obvious difference nutritionally between summer and winter that I can see. He may want others around to help regulate himself. If they’re calm he can mimic and be calmer, hence their presence is very much more needed in winter.
The rushing round and being very energised when competing but weaving and planting when asked to be still, fits very much into the profile of electrolyte imbalance jitteriness as adrenaline momentarily acts like a pain reliever and energiser.

As you/re ‘at the wire’ with this behaviour, a slow low dose increasing slowly addition of magnesium/green grass nuts, I’d try personally, before thinking of more drastic choices.
If he’s on alfalfa in winter, maybe change that, as that’s high in calcium and will cause an even more imbalanced electrolyte state…needing more magnesium to balance it. Hay anyway is higher in calcium than grass, so that combined with lower magnesium intake from fresh grass, can tip the scales of electrolyte imbalance.
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Its vitamin e that is probably missing, magneiusm as well, but I wouldnt be feeding green grass to get magnesium. The UK is horrifically low in magnesium, esp in green growing grass. Theres plenty of cheap magnesium supplements and vitamin e can be fed fairly economically.

I'd stop the relieve, get him on something like grass nuts or sugar beet, add a high spec mineral balancer and if it helps, up the vitamin e and magensium to see if it continues to help. Bearing in mind too much of either can have the opposite effect so dont overload.
 
PurBee said:
The saracens is loaded with soya hulls, beans and oil - which for many horses in this forum triggers gut/behavioural issues. There is just intolerance to 1 ingredient to consider which can send some horses over the edge, especially if fed daily. Alfalfa is another trigger reported on here often.
Legumes can be a bit tricky for horses because of the way they are digested. Out in the wild their exposure to legumes are extremely limited, and their physiology hasn’t necessarily developed over the ‘relatively short domesticated’ years to handle such feed stuffs in fair bulk daily.

Also soya oil in saracens has a ratio of more omega 6 to 3 oils. When he was out at grass the omega 3 in that would have helped balance out the soya oil heavy omega 6 dose. But as grass consumption drastically drops during winter, the inflammatory omega 6 from Releve soy oil dominates their system, while anti-inflammatory omega 3 from grass drops significantly. In humans the brain effects from omega 3&6 are studied, and there’s a relief of depressive/headache brain states in some who increase omega 3.

The saracens also has a wonky electrolyte ratio - which if we consider hay also has a wonky electrolyte balance, and you’re adding extra electrolytes - let’s assume that’s a balanced mix for ease - it still could mean the electrolytes are out of whack….which only gets more pronounced as time goes on, which generally fits with owners declaring ‘they’ve got worse slowly over time’, accounting for ever increasing imbalance occuring.

If the horse is otherwise healthy, talented and everything you could have wished for despite this behaviour, I’d consider an equine nutritionist consultation to check and see every single thing you’re giving him is within tolerable ranges. It’s very easy with multi supplemental feeds to unknowingly feed imbalanced macro-nutrients, or be feeding 1 ingredient that particular horse just cannot tolerate.

Soya has dominated horse feeds now, because it’s so bloody cheap in bulk, and my own horses handle just a certain dose, and no more, or they are spicy.
Sometimes it’s not the feed per se, but the dose.
A nutritionist can help zoom in glaring obvious imbalances that feed companies just won’t ever admit to their products being imbalanced.

Sometimes, it’s recommended to strip the feed right down to hay/forage/grass, balanced electrolytes with balanced minerals + water. Get everything else out of their system and see what their baseline is, then re-introduce feeds slowly, to see if there’s a culprit to be identified.
As he is in regular work, those nutritional balances matter, and will become more obvious than a horse at rest/retired.
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Thank you for this.

It makes perfect sense.

However regarding the soya - he was on full fat soya (pure) before when he lost a lot of weight due to the stress of a yard move and he don’t show any of the signs he’s showing now.

Also very interesting as the Releve is promoted as a gut friendly feed….how can they promote this if it contains far from ideal content (food for thought).
 
Dave's Mam said:
What a tough time you're both having. I haven't dealt with anything this extreme, but I hope you find a solution. It must be exhausting for both of you.
Does he lie down & sleep properly, do you know?
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Thank you for your kind words. He does lie down and sleep like the dead. My yard owner often sends me photos of him having a flat out snooze.
 
Ali27 said:
My mare who I’ve had since she was 6 has always had separation issues. She now has her own little companion pony to herself and I can remove her from her to bring into ride but can’t take companion pony away from her ever! That’s her only vice! She used to nap when we first her out hacking but with time and patience, she is now fine!
Is a companion pony an option?
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He actually used to have a companion pony when we had our own yard and she used to come everywhere with us, including shows. And yes, he was much much much much better. It was also never a problem to go out hacking.
But then again in summer it’s never a problem for us to do most things (except the shows where he still doesn’t stand tied but he doesn’t stress like he does in winter).
Unfortunately as he’s on full livery and I need this as I can’t do DIY with work, having another horse or a companion pony is not an option.
 
I'm Dun said:
Its vitamin e that is probably missing, magneiusm as well, but I wouldnt be feeding green grass to get magnesium. The UK is horrifically low in magnesium, esp in green growing grass. Theres plenty of cheap magnesium supplements and vitamin e can be fed fairly economically.

I'd stop the relieve, get him on something like grass nuts or sugar beet, add a high spec mineral balancer and if it helps, up the vitamin e and magensium to see if it continues to help. Bearing in mind too much of either can have the opposite effect so dont overload.
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Unfortunately he needs to be on a proper feed, else he loses weight.
Again, this hasn’t happened to this extreme in summer. So I don’t disagree that it may have something to do with the minerals. And something I hadn’t thought about.

I will order some magnesium and get a vits and mins supplement.
 
You could try changing to a natural diet

I only feed what I think is natural and the minimum

Then add a complete vit and min supplement, my stress one also needs extra vit e

Look into herbs to add

Nervous systems respond good and bad to the diet. You are what you eat, and whilst neurotic ways could be caused by many things including the physical problems, I'd start with the diet, and if in light work only minimum feed on top of fiber, it's so easy to overfeed and what you need is for him to relax not boil over

I have restrain myself now we have a cobby one, for his own sake

If he is good to ride and hacks out nicely its a weird one

But overstimulating diets or vit deficiencies play havoc

I'd change the diet and give him a good lunging, put up a few jumps, up the work find interesting distractions, I have ridden horses I felt were going to chuck me off but when distracted and using their intelligence suddenly forgot to be naughty, ie using lateral work, before any final decision

It was with good reason tb horses had stable companions in the old days, a sheep was good one
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Could you switch his feed to a non molassed one free from all the additives ?
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I would stop the glucosamine, too. I had a big IDx who reacted very badly to feeds with it in. It usually comes from shell-fish which horses aren't evolved to digest. I would also treat as if he has hindgut ulcers. But it sounds as if he needs (and I use the word advisedly) the opportunity to relax in a herd and reset. That doesn't mean permanent retirement but it does mean letting him have consistency for at least 12 months and then bringing him very gradually back to getting used to horses coming and going without him.
 
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