Shameful riding at Badminton XC

blueneonrainbow said:
I for one was very uncomfortable watching Ingrid Klimkes, Emily Baldwins and Karen O'Connors rounds. I felt there was very little communication going on between horses and riders - there were other riders who I felt did a considerably better job on the day but am I not entitled to say that because I didnt go round the course and have no interest in doing so myself?
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Nope, you should gush about them all with adoration or you'll appear a bitter, jealous, wannabe. :rolleyes:

I don't care how I appear and if I'd paid a bit more attention this year I'd have been happy to say which ones looked crap. ;)
 
blueneonrainbow said:
It would appear from some comments on the Badminton threads that unless your opinion is complimentary of the rider you are commenting, you are not in fact allowed your own opinion. I tried to count the number of "Well, we haven't seen YOU riding around Badminton, so you don't know what you're talking about" comments but I lost count between this and the other thread. Fact is, the users of this board may not be as talented, experienced, confident, and/or rich as those riding Badminton, but it doesnt mean that they are not entitled to put their views across on the way those who do choose to ride around Badminton went round the course. Some riders were clearly more sympathetic and therefore got a better tune out of their horses than others.
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Yep, totally agree with you.
 
I very unfortunately missed Badminton on telly this yr :(
People that are slagging off top event riders are obviously jealous!!:)
 
blueneonrainbow said:
It would appear from some comments on the Badminton threads that unless your opinion is complimentary of the rider you are commenting, you are not in fact allowed your own opinion. I tried to count the number of "Well, we haven't seen YOU riding around Badminton, so you don't know what you're talking about" comments but I lost count between this and the other thread. Fact is, the users of this board may not be as talented, experienced, confident, and/or rich as those riding Badminton, but it doesnt mean that they are not entitled to put their views across on the way those who do choose to ride around Badminton went round the course. Some riders were clearly more sympathetic and therefore got a better tune out of their horses than others.
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What some people seem to forget is that you can't JUST enter Badminton because you have the horse and the money! You have to qualify - and the qualification is quite hard and requires some VERY good performances. Only the 85 BEST qualified combinations are accepted - the rest go on the Waiting List and may get a run if one of the chosen combinations withdraws. When you consider that Lucinda Fredericks and Prada - who finished 16th - were on the waiting list - that SHOULD give an idea of how hard it is to get in. Cr*p riders just don't get there!

And - some horses REQUIRE a sympathetic ride - others NEED to be ridden in a more determined - even somewhat aggressive - fashion. The latter type may well fall apart - or throw in stupid stops - if ridden too 'sympathetically'. I doubt very much that riders change their style of riding JUST because they are at Badminton so chances are - that to get the necessary qualifications - they always ride THAT particular horse THAT way - because it's what he needs! Some horses need to be asked - some need to be TOLD!
 
You know you really do not have to capitalize every other word to emphasize your point - I'm not an idiot. I didn't say any of the riders were crap, and I appreciate it takes more than money to get a rider to badminton but the aggressive style of riding used by the above named to get their horses round obviously didn't do them much good as they fell off, whereas the more sympathetic riders, on the whole finished without too much incident. As I say there didn't seem to be a great deal of communication going on between the combinations I named which is why I assume they failed to finish.
 
friends of mine have in the past refused offers to buy horses from eventers, saying and i quote, 'they'd kill -------- eventing', i have also refused offers for horses i would prefer to have a safer lifestyle, its wrong to assume that because they are there at badminton that they have the best horses and are the best riders, they make the choice to contest such competitions, other people make the choice not to and not to risk their horses.

horses refuse for different reasons, not all of which deserve a reprimand, if a horse stops when it feels it is wrongly presented it has made the right choice and does not need to be hit, this will happen with all horses from time to time, and as badminton is the top level of eventing trying to tackle those elements when wrong could lead to fatal fall.
 
Mondy said:
Lauren Shannon's Zero Flight took his name seriously and refused at the lake.

Unsurprising, considering the strides towards the jump did not fit in any way - yet, the rider responded by heavy-handedly sawing his mouth before taking the reins in one hand to leave the other free for whipping the horse. It was a very ugly spectacle, made even clearer for the viewer's pleasure by the subsequent replay in slow motion.

In Denmark, such behaviour would have seen her eliminated and given a hefty telling-off. Maybe I'm culturally damaged in that way; I'm used to a mode of thinking that does not tolerate punishment, and certainly not punishment for an error that belonged to the one on top.
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This did not sound like the rider I know, but didn't see the lake so I've been on you tube and found this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvpi6KWVk5Y you can see Laurens stop at about 2.40. I see no 'heavy handedly sawing his mouth' she turns away from the fence and shortens her rein which she's let slip and flexes him right as he is getting his knickers in a twist to bring him back under orders. The only time I can see on the video she used the whip is on the second approach in a totally appropriate way. Do you have the correct rider and horse?

I know Lauren, she is a friend of mine and she would NEVER do ANYTHING to harm or endanger her horses. She adores them and has produced both Louie and Delphi up through the levels herself, Delphi totally from scratch. She is a sympathetic, intelligent, quality rider as evidenced by her two top twenty placings in her first two 4* and the fact that she has produced Delphi so well that she can be ridden round a 4* in a snaffle and a plain nose band. (I own up to being a bit bias!)

I'm not in the habit of responding to posts commenting on others riding, because I don't feel it's appropriate unless someone has specifically asked for CC but I don't think what you've said was fair of justified and I wouldn't want other people to form an incorrect opinion based on your post.
 
tristar said:
horses refuse for different reasons, not all of which deserve a reprimand, if a horse stops when it feels it is wrongly presented it has made the right choice and does not need to be hit, this will happen with all horses from time to time, and as badminton is the top level of eventing trying to tackle those elements when wrong could lead to fatal fall.
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And do you not think that maybe the likes of Mark Todd might actually be aware of this?

Tristar, Jennyharvey, Over2you et al -

I have said it before - if you choose to ride and attempt to educate a horse without the use of artificial aids, that is your privilege, but I do not believe you would get round Badminton, and I actually think that the honest position is this - if you are anti discipline, then you are anti eventing.

So therefore, it is superfluous to bang on about the riding at Badminton being not to your liking, it is just Badminton that is not to your liking, and having said that, you could move on.

If you start from a position that eventing is a good thing, and Badminton is a morally acceptable event, then it is different - some people have said for example that in Emily Baldwin's case, the smacks were delivered too late.

I also think that saying:
'unless your opinion is complimentary of the rider you are commenting, you are not in fact allowed your own opinion.' blueneonerainbow, is a bit daft, as you are stating your opinion, if you don't like the fact that someone disgrees with you, you are saying they are not entitled to theirs! Just because someone enters into robust debate with you does not mean they are not allowing your opinion.
 
I have said it before - if you choose to ride and attempt to educate a horse without the use of artificial aids, that is your privilege, but I do not believe you would get round Badminton,

Why wouldnt u get around badminton? I dont think we need gadgets to train a horse. I guess u believe that because no one has actually gone round badminton without gadgets. Just because it hasnt been done, doesnt mean its not possible.
 
Jennyharvey said:
I have said it before - if you choose to ride and attempt to educate a horse without the use of artificial aids, that is your privilege, but I do not believe you would get round Badminton,

Why wouldnt u get around badminton? I dont think we need gadgets to train a horse. I guess u believe that because no one has actually gone round badminton without gadgets. Just because it hasnt been done, doesnt mean its not possible.
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Gadgets? We were talking about a whip!
When I was a lass the 'artificial aids' amounted to whip, spurs and martingale, I'll have you know!
I don't 'believe it because it hasn't been done' plenty of people have gone round without what I would call gadgets. I think it would be foolhardy to attempt it without a whip.
I would just like to clarify your position. Do you now think that equestrian sports such as three day eventing are fine, and that people could get round them in a way which is acceptable to you, ie without the use of whip or spurs or presumably without the horse looking over tired, which you referred to before?
Or do you think they whole thing is a wrong thing to be doing with a horse?
 
JanetGeorge said:
What some people seem to forget is that you can't JUST enter Badminton because you have the horse and the money! You have to qualify - and the qualification is quite hard and requires some VERY good performances. Only the 85 BEST qualified combinations are accepted - the rest go on the Waiting List and may get a run if one of the chosen combinations withdraws. When you consider that Lucinda Fredericks and Prada - who finished 16th - were on the waiting list - that SHOULD give an idea of how hard it is to get in. Cr*p riders just don't get there!
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Cr*p footballers don't get into the premiership, but they sometimes do deliver cr*p performances and some deliver cr*p performances more frequently than others.

Sometimes some combinations going round badminton look like a fall waiting to happen. If the same combination were doing a riding club dressage, yes they would probably look great, but compared to their competition peers and doing the tests set for them at that level, a few always end up looking cr*p and out of their depth.
 
tristar said:
horses refuse for different reasons, not all of which deserve a reprimand, if a horse stops when it feels it is wrongly presented it has made the right choice and does not need to be hit, this will happen with all horses from time to time, and as badminton is the top level of eventing trying to tackle those elements when wrong could lead to fatal fall.
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That's very true - but it's also true that if you come into one of those fences on a fading horse and DON'T wake it up, you'll fall. No-one has commented on Mark Todd's use of the whip - can't remember which jump now but horse had lost all impulsion and was heading for a fall. Toddy gave him 3 good cracks - in perfect balance - and off he went! If he hadn't used his whip at that point, not only wouldn't he have won - but he almost certainly would have fallen.

There was one girl (whose name I forget) who DID need a good smack as she turned her horse away after a stop and then whacked it - that's totally pointless and a sign of spoilt brat temper. Doesn't mean she's not normally a good rider - just that she lacks self control on the big occasion - and needs to learn it!
 
skewbald_again said:
Gadgets? We were talking about a whip!
When I was a lass the 'artificial aids' amounted to whip, spurs and martingale, I'll have you know!
I don't 'believe it because it hasn't been done' plenty of people have gone round without what I would call gadgets. I think it would be foolhardy to attempt it without a whip.
I would just like to clarify your position. Do you now think that equestrian sports such as three day eventing are fine, and that people could get round them in a way which is acceptable to you, ie without the use of whip or spurs or presumably without the horse looking over tired, which you referred to before?Or do you think they whole thing is a wrong thing to be doing with a horse?
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Im not a big fan of high class competition. Mostly because it takes a lot out of a horse, both mentally and physically. Its a demanding lifestyle, with pretty intensive training. I think its pretty well known that a lot of competition horse's suffer from stomach ulcers, and some even say that 100% of racehorse's have them. Not to mention stable vices such as cribbing and weaving(mostly racehorses). It can also be a very stressful lifestyle, not just with the amount of training involved, but also the travelling too. Lots of time spent in a horsebox, going to new places, even being in aircrafts too.

I just think its a very hectic lifestyle for these horse's, obviously a lot of people dont have a problem with intensive training or travelling a horse around the world to compete, but i do. Hence why i dont support top class competition.

If there was more regulations about tack, especially for young riders, maybe i wouldnt have as big an issue. But unfortunately people can just ride in whichever bit (or gadget) they want, and nobody goes to check to make sure they can actually ride well with this piece of kit.
What bothers me most is children who ride in spurs and whatever bit they want. There is a picture in H&H recently with a child riding in a long shanked bit, possibly american gag, which i think is wrong because someone at her age might not be a good enough rider for such a bit.
 
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Jennyharvey said:
Im not a big fan of high class competition. Mostly because it takes a lot out of a horse, both mentally and physically. Its a demanding lifestyle, with pretty intensive training. I think its pretty well known that a lot of competition horse's suffer from stomach ulcers, and some even say that 100% of racehorse's have them. Not to mention stable vices such as cribbing and weaving(mostly racehorses). It can also be a very stressful lifestyle, not just with the amount of training involved, but also the travelling too. Lots of time spent in a horsebox, going to new places, even being in aircrafts too.

I just think its a very hectic lifestyle for these horse's, obviously a lot of people dont have a problem with intensive training or travelling a horse around the world to compete, but i do. Hence why i dont support top class competition.

If there was more regulations about tack, especially for young riders, maybe i wouldnt have as big an issue. But unfortunately people can just ride in whichever bit (or gadget) they want, and nobody goes to check to make sure they can actually ride well with this piece of kit.
What bothers me most is children who ride in spurs and whatever bit they want. There is a picture in H&H recently with a child riding in a long shanked bit, possibly american gag, which i think is wrong because someone at her age might not be a good enough rider for such a bit.
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Actually there is a lot of regulation about tack for affiliated competition, and tack is regularly checked by stewards. I see more dodgy 'gadget' type bits at Unaffiliated, and let's face it even a plain bit can be fairly brutal in the wrong hands. I don't think you can make a judgement about the ability of the rider based purely on the age and a photograph.

As for the Ulcers/Stereotypic behaviours IMO that is related to poor feeding/weaning practices rather than a 'hectic' lifestyle, the high starch grain based diets have fallen out of favour in most disciplines now for exactly those reasons.

I can't speak for other disciplines but my background is in Eventing and the 4* horses I've cared for have only run two possibly three times a year at big events and probably the same number of 'training events' so they aren't really travelling/competing that much. I don't think 6 weekends out of 52 can be considered that intense even if they are travelling to get to events.

There are some horses who wouldn't deal with high level competition but equally there are those that thrive on it. Remember that you only see them at their most keyed up during their rounds, they are quite happy and chilled around the stabling for the rest of the competition and if you attend major events you'll see them happily hand grazing in the morning and evening. You just need to look at how long horses last at the top level now to realise the quality of care and careful management they recieve. Obviously some horses are unlucky and pick up injuries and the more challenging the level of competition the greater the risk but if it was taking a massive toll on them just to complete you wouldn't get so many in the late teens still sound and happily competing.
 
I also think that saying:
'unless your opinion is complimentary of the rider you are commenting, you are not in fact allowed your own opinion.' blueneonerainbow, is a bit daft, as you are stating your opinion, if you don't like the fact that someone disgrees with you, you are saying they are not entitled to theirs! Just because someone enters into robust debate with you does not mean they are not allowing your opinion.
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If you read the rest of my post, you'd see I was referring to the number of people who specifically said on both Badminton threads that other people didnt know what they were talking about because "we haven't seen you riding Badminton". I was simply posting an observation on the number of people who didnt like others opinions and were trying to stamp them down with a completely ridiculous argument.
 
falaise said:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

"Mark Todd, record breaking winner of his umpteenth Badminton, takes advice from H&H sofa-dwelling forumers"

Tee hee hee ;)
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Ah but I think that comes under the heading of :- one doesn't need to able to make a table to know whether one is suitable to sit at and eat one's dinner from.

Our Mr Todd et al may very well be god's gifts to equestrianism - but it's their public that will decide how far they want to go along with what they do.
 
well said 1stclassalan.

we are not offering advice we are talking here about whether or not it is possible to ride badminton without needing to use excessive force, and what amount of whip use is needed and most importantly when it is applied and why, hitting a horse who has stopped because he is wrong, or hitting a tired or less than keen horse to execute a jump that it may have half decided not to jump out of its own common sense, is really the issue,
 
Oh for goodness sake it was a joke.

A lot of people take these forums far too seriously. They are not fun to read or comment on, and apparently ANY comment made will be treated with disdain by someone or other! Tis a shame really.
 
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