Sharing a horse?

[Wheresthehoofpick]

Tell me what I need to know. My horse - I have been let down by a loaner. So suddenly left with decisions.

He is on a very expensive but completely brilliant full livery yard where he is very happy. Anxious type. Amazing facilities etc.

I worked out the basic cost of keeping him there. Livery. Feed. Shoes. Insurance. Vaccs and wormer. It's £26 per day!! Don't tell my partner ?. Obviously that doesn't include saddle checks or kit repairs etc. I clip him. Or teeth etc etc.

Is the truth that when you share, you the owner end up paying huge amounts and the sharer pays a token contribution?

I have another horse coming on loan and can't afford to heavily subsidise someone else's hobby.

I've said he can go on loan. Move yards etc.

He can also go and live (rent free but will probably be bored!) with my parents. If he went there I would just be paying for shoes, feed and insurance.

I only started looking for another as someone was desperate to have him. I can keep him. So I am just totally confused.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I'm not sure what you mean by owners 'end up paying huge amounts' - as far as I know their costs don't change but depending on the agreement they may get a contribution towards those costs. Some owners just want help with chores or even just the horse getting exercised so don't ask for contribution on top. I previously paid £10/day for share and went 2 or 3 times per week, plus all DIY jobs on my days.

 

[fredflop]

Your post doesn’t really make sense, all I can say is financially never rely on a sharer to make ends meet to fund the horse

 

[ArklePig]

I'm not really sure what you mean, but if it helps, I've just started a share and I pay half the horses shoes and a token cost per week. The owner covers everything else, he's her horse. If you're not riding the horse you might want to think about a full loan-if you do a full loan than traditionally the loaner pays all the costs and the owner may continue to pay the insurance.

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

Yes. That's what I thought.

I had a confusing conversation with the potential person. I was offering a full loan where he would move to the yard convenient to her. Therefore taking on all costs.

She then asked about sharing him at his current yard. I now understand that means paying a token amount that doesn't in anyway fund his upkeep.

I've only owned or fully loaned so had no experience of the idea of "sharing". Really it seems that it is helping out with exercising and some chores if you need support. Not actually taking the horse on as their own.

 

[ArklePig]

Yeah exactly that, I have mine 3 days a week for riding and do his jobs those days. I'm not in a position/ready to commit to my own horse yet. It gives the owner some time back and helps her out a small bit with cash but I couldn't imagine it makes too much of a dent in his upkeep costs (he's a very pampered boy, best of everything, I'd say he costs her a fortune). She makes all the decisions on his care and management and I follow her spec. I think that's the way most shares work. Can be confusing if they're not common around your area-I'm from the Republic of Ireland and they're not much of a thing, here in the North of Ireland slightly more usual but less popular still than in parts of Britain!

If it's a full loan you're looking for your horse I'd suggest maybe readvertising and being clear about what you need and weeding out people like that! I'd recommend continuing to pay the insurance yourself though and draw up a contract if you loan him out.

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

I find myself in a very different situation with horses on livery. When I had a little herd at home I was happy for people just to come and ride as the horses needed more exercise and attention than I could give!! I didn't expect anything in return just grateful if they turned up reliably. Not all did!!

 

[EchoInterrupted]

Here's my thoughts, hope this helps a bit!

The way I see it there's two types of arrangements - part-loans and shares. This in my mind is the differentiation...

Share pays a set amount per day or per month and it's a smaller amount (I recently paid £60/month to ride twice a week, but was very restricted in what I was allowed to do, due to the horse), but what is allowed to be done is very much in control of the owner. If owner says hack for 45 minutes and take X route, that's what happens. Owner can set restrictions on what time the sharer is allowed to come, move sharer's days around, showing isn't necessarily an option, etc. (I should say here that if the owner is looking for someone to school their horse in a specific way/work on specific things, they should really be looking for an exercise rider whom they will pay, rather than trying to find a sharer for that purpose. I mean "owner is in control of rides" when it comes to the share as in saying "no, I want to jump on Friday so you can't jump him they day before" and things like that)

Part-loan I see more as an arrangement where the rider is genuinely contributing to owner's costs, but also on their days, it's pretty much their horse. They can take lessons on it, hack it, jump it, etc (within reason obviously and taking into account horse welfare). They can attend fun rides and shows, etc. The owner makes space in the tack room for the part-loaner's things, it's a long term committed partnership. Obviously the owner needs to be in the loop about what the part-loaner is doing with the horse, but I would not pay half of a horse's keeping costs to be told what to do during my ride daily I currently pay £175/month for a part-loan that was supposed to be 2 days/week, but because they want someone hacking him out more than he was getting, the arrangement ended up changing into me schooling/jumping twice per week and hacking him out an additional 2 days/week because no one else was available/wanted to hack him and I was happy to come out extra to do so (with no increase in what I pay).

Of course there are grey zones and most people will use the terms share and part-loan interchangeably. In my current area £10-£15/day is pretty typical for a share/part-loan where you can more or less do what I mentioned in the "part-loan" description, maybe with a bit more rules/restrictions from owner. Good, reliable sharers/loaners are like fairy dust, so you really want to hang onto one if you have one.

To be honest I think you will struggle to find a part-loaner for £26/day. Ultimately, if the rate for a part-loan in your area is not £26/day, it's not really the loaner's problem because they can find something else, especially if they have no control over whether he is kept on DIY/assisted DIY vs full livery. Even in London, most part-loans seem to be around £15/day range based on a quick google (not sure where you're located, but I've been keeping an eye on yards in London as I'm moving soon). Maybe the cost/day for loaner could be reduced by their days being assisted DIY livery and they do the yard chores? Most people who part-loan aren't in a position to afford their own horse and would therefore likely prefer to pay less and do their own yard chores (not everyone of course - some just don't have the time or desire to have their own horse and may prefer not doing chores).

I know you say you don't want to heavily subsidize someone else's hobby, but it kind of goes both ways. They know they can't take on the financial responsibility of horse ownership, which is why they haven't bought a horse. At £26/day they could easily be taking one high quality private lesson per week (or potentially up to 2 group lessons per week) instead of loaning your horse 2/3 days per week. I think the cost of a part-loan also depends on the quality of the horse to be honest - if the horse is an amazing high quality schoolmaster that they can learn a lot from/do a lot with, you could probably get away with £26/day on full livery. If it's a regular decent allrounder, it will be much more difficult. If the horse has limitations on what is allowed to be done with it (eg no jumping), you'll find it nearly impossible to find a part-loaner for £26/day (unless he's a dressage schoolmaster or something). I think if you want to keep him on full livery and you struggle to find someone to part-loan him at £26/day which would include insurance and shoeing, it might be reasonable to for example have them pay their "share" (2/7 or however many days of the week) of the full livery costs, but then not have them pay towards shoes or insurance. Unless you're on DIY (at least for the part-loaner's days of the week) it'll be unlikely that you'll "break even" with a part-loaner, if that makes sense. On DIY it should be pretty doable to have them pay their full share of costs. Hope this helps a bit!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I find myself in a very different situation with horses on livery. When I had a little herd at home I was happy for people just to come and ride as the horses needed more exercise and attention than I could give!! I didn't expect anything in return just grateful if they turned up reliably. Not all did!!

These happen too, some shares just want the help with the jobs and exercise, and others ask for contribution only with no jobs.

Unfortunately the share I had didn't work out but I was made so welcome by the yard (included in things, never a problem to ask a question, or nosy at things going on to learn more!) and made myself useful in addition to doing share jobs. I've been offered to ride on a couple of other horses for free in exchange for the odd bit of poo picking, helping with haynets, emptying wheelbarrow etc).

 

[EchoInterrupted]

Just saw your post about having another horse coming - if you were planning on full loaning him out and someone dropped out, I would definitely recommend just readvertising for a full loaner! Sounds like that might be the best arrangement for you at the moment since then the full loaner is taking all costs and has full control I think there's quite a demand for full loans that are allowed to move yards, so might be easier than what you're currently considering (as long as it's something you're comfortable with).

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

Yes. I think full loaning him is the way to go.

It is my choice to be on a super expensive full livery yard. My life is complex with children with health care needs. We live a fair way from decent riding. I moved to this yard because it is amazing even though it cost a fortune.

I would like whoever has him to treat him like their own. She wants to teach her children on him etc. He is a super horse with great potential and a heart of gold. That doesn't seem to me to fit the sharing model as I now understand it.

Originally when I heard the term I thought ok. I could pay for 2 days a weeks worth of his keep to make it affordable for her. Then I broke down the cost and went ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

He is on a very expensive but completely brilliant full livery yard where he is very happy. Anxious type. Amazing facilities etc.

I worked out the basic cost of keeping him there. Livery. Feed. Shoes. Insurance. Vaccs and wormer. It's £26 per day!! Don't tell my partner ?.

I'm rather surprised that you think that £26 per day in such a good yard inc insurance, vaccs, shoes and wormer is expensive. Sounds like a bargain to me.

Have you compared it to boarding kennels and what they charge?

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

For me it is good value - but I have realised that with all the costs involved horsing is expensive when on really good full livery.

It was more when I saw that a sharer might expect to pay £30 for 3 rides that I realised that sharing didn't mean actually sharing the costs.

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

I have also said I am happy for her to try him at my yard for a few weeks to make sure they get on. I want it to be right for him - the she can move him to somewhere that works better for her. I've also negotiated with my yard owner and they are happy for her to stay at our yard as a full livery. So skipping all the waiting lists.

 

[Wishfilly]

Sharers contributions do vary, and in general, if there are less jobs and it's a nice horse, then the sharer will expect to pay more.

In general, though, sharers are more commonly used by people who don't have time for their horse than those who are struggling financially. If you think of it as someone paying to help take care of your horse, it doesn't sound like such a bad deal, does it?

Relying on a sharer financially is not a good idea, really.

It sounds like you need to advertise for another full loaner. Are you willing to let your horse move yards?

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

I'm rather surprised that you think that £26 per day in such a good yard inc insurance, vaccs, shoes and wormer is expensive. Sounds like a bargain to me.

Have you compared it to boarding kennels and what they charge?

I have recently been comparing my ponies costs to nurseries and good lord! OH now doesn’t think pony is as money guzzling as he thought.

Thank god we are moving up north because my current local nursery is £75 a day!

Agree though, when my pony was on a decent full livery (great hacking and school but fields were rubbish) I was averaging about £23 a day on livery, hay, bedding and feed alone. Once you added saddler, jabs, dentist, insurance, farrier etc I was waaaaay over £26 a day. (I’m SE, about 25 miles from London)

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

I think the real moral of this tale is not working out how much you actually spend on horses. ????

Thanks for your help everyone. I have had this horse for two years. Love him to bits but for many complicated reasons he is not "the one". It's so different when you have the funds to have one on livery instead of squeezing another one in at home.

The situation was that I was chatting it through with a friend and she said out of the blue. I'd love to have him on loan. If I could pick the perfect person in the world for him it would be her. So after a lot of sobbing I decided to let him go. I had thought I would end up gifting him to her. Then just as she was supposed to pick him up she sent me a message saying she couldn't take him.

In the meantime another friend offered me a lovely but very aged horse who sounds perfect for my kids if he can be brought back into work successfully. He is old and needs a genuine forever home I committed to take him as she is struggling financially and I don't want to dump her in it like I have been.

I can't afford two on full livery.
I can turn one away with my parents but both would prefer to work.

I am also reluctant to sell in this crazy market. My lovely horse is a gentle soul but sensitive. In the wrong hands he will have a hideous life. He doesn't deserve that.

 

[popletaa]

I think you just need to be clear that you're advertising him for full loan, not a part loan or share. So they'll take his passport etc. - it's up to them if they want to keep him at his current yard or move him but just be clear to them that they'll be financially responsible either way. It might be worth considering if you want to pay for insurance though, only because someone could just hand him back to you if he got ill.

Given the current horse prices, I don't think you'll struggle to find someone to full loan him - there must be a lot of people that want to buy but are priced out of the current market.

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

That's what I think too. In the current market he is an expensive horse.

Really good point the insurance I hadn't thought of that.

Thanks

 

[oldie48]

Definitely full loan but ask yourself if you would want him to come home again, if not sell.

 

[EchoInterrupted]

There are also TONS of people who would really appreciate a full loan with view to buy, so if you do feel he's not the horse for you and the reason you're not selling is because you're not confident you'll find the right person, a loan with view to buy could be a great way for both you and a future owner to make sure they're the perfect match for him. It may give you that bit of extra control over the sale that you're hoping for (though of course they could sell him on a couple years down the line and you would have no control over that). Good luck and hope you find an arrangement that works well for you!

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Re-advertise, but why would you not consider selling?

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

He has not actually been advertised at all. It's all word of mouth.

Selling - There is so much that is right about him. I am struggling to let go. This all only came about a few weeks ago. Initiated by someone saying they wanted to loan him and that being the perfect forever home for him.

It's just been a rubbish year for owning a horse. Kids constantly at home. 2 youngest with complex mental and physical health needs. One only diagnosed a few weeks ago. I need surgery too in a few weeks. I've worked so hard on him and he has come so far. I am worried that selling him right now when I am under so much pressure would be a knee jerk reaction to the chaos that this hideous year has brought.

 

[Chianti]

I have recently been comparing my ponies costs to nurseries and good lord! OH now doesn’t think pony is as money guzzling as he thought.

Thank god we are moving up north because my current local nursery is £75 a day!

Agree though, when my pony was on a decent full livery (great hacking and school but fields were rubbish) I was averaging about £23 a day on livery, hay, bedding and feed alone. Once you added saddler, jabs, dentist, insurance, farrier etc I was waaaaay over £26 a day. (I’m SE, about 25 miles from London)

Re your comment on nursery costs. I doubt many livery yards have to deal with the level of enforcement that nurseries do e.g. re staffing ratios, size of premises, level of qualifications, training requirements, Ofsted inspections, assessments and record keeping, SEN, etc etc. I'm a nursery teacher and have also worked on a yard. Believe me yard work caring for horses is a doodle compared to 2-4 year olds. I suggest you volunteer for a day and find out all the work that goes on behind the scenes before you complain.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Re your comment on nursery costs. I doubt many livery yards have to deal with the level of enforcement that nurseries do e.g. re staffing ratios, size of premises, level of qualifications, training requirements, Ofsted inspections, assessments and record keeping, SEN, etc etc. I'm a nursery teacher and have also worked on a yard. Believe me yard work caring for horses is a doodle compared to 2-4 year olds. I suggest you volunteer for a day and find out all the work that goes on behind the scenes before you complain.

It was quite obviously tongue in cheek. My horse is left unsupervised the majority of the day, I’m not expecting my then 10 month old to be left to eat a haynet on her own...

Also at no point did I complain. I live in Surrey, we’re moving to Yorkshire. The same service is £20 a day cheaper up there hence my joy that we are moving.

 

[Cob Life]

Yes. That's what I thought.

I had a confusing conversation with the potential person. I was offering a full loan where he would move to the yard convenient to her. Therefore taking on all costs.

She then asked about sharing him at his current yard. I now understand that means paying a token amount that doesn't in anyway fund his upkeep.

I've only owned or fully loaned so had no experience of the idea of "sharing". Really it seems that it is helping out with exercising and some chores if you need support. Not actually taking the horse on as their own.

Exactly that, I have acces to him whenever I want (although this is unusual) in exchange for looking after him on the days I go.

Unlike myself I know a lot of people pay a contribution and have set days

 

[Chianti]

It was quite obviously tongue in cheek. My horse is left unsupervised the majority of the day, I’m not expecting my then 10 month old to be left to eat a haynet on her own...

Also at no point did I complain. I live in Surrey, we’re moving to Yorkshire. The same service is £20 a day cheaper up there hence my joy that we are moving.

It's probably cheaper because wages and premises to buy or rent are cheaper. I doubt the profit margins are very different. It does irritate me when people do complain about the cost of childcare. I've known parents who pay £500 a month for 'doggy daycare' but think they're being ripped off by nurseries who are looking after their child.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Yes. That's what I thought.

She then asked about sharing him at his current yard. I now understand that means paying a token amount that doesn't in anyway fund his upkeep.

I've only owned or fully loaned so had no experience of the idea of "sharing". Really it seems that it is helping out with exercising and some chores if you need support. Not actually taking the horse on as their own.

Sharing means whatever agreement owner and sharer come up with.

Sometimes it’s cost full of keeping horse a day for number or days, sometimes it’s nothing for riding with maybe help with chores.

All arrangements exist according to supply, demand, location, quality of facilities, quality of horse, and how good a rider sharer is, and what sharer is allowed to do with horse e.g. jump, compete, etc.

 

[Spirit2021]

You should just sell him loaning so you can afford to keep him is not a good idea especially if they end a loan and the horse is returned to you.