Sharp Shire!!!

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I have a very very sharp shire gelding, 17.3hh 4/5 year old. Brought him 2 years ago un-handled!! Oh we have had lots of fun along the way!
Long story and lots of great and definitely not so great moments! But need some advice please....
1st 6 month we owned him with lots of advance and retreat got him use to head collars, handling, feet, farrier, vets, teeth etc. He was always on edge but pretty much accepted it all.
Got to point where I was riding him round the yard bareback but he would panic when trying to get on him with saddle.
Back, teeth etc check and no difference so sent him away, he initially did really well with the guy, he did bit of lunging and long reining and then the guy sat on him a few times he was fab and started riding him round school, paddocks etc then out of blue he full on bronked him off, got back on and he was fine for a few more day. He then bronked him off and put him in hospital, couple of days off and the guy got back on him and came straight off again! He got back on and he was absolutely fine. He rode him the next day and again fine, we were always planning to turn him away from winter so left it at that point on a good note!
4 months turned out and he filled out and grew some more, he was handled daily so didn't go feral! Then his summer we started groundwork again, lunging was fab but long reining not great so I have really been focusing on that, now long reins out on hack up to 2 hours and is fab, odd spook but typical baby stuff.
He is amazing to handle, children can now catch and lead him round. He is fab to tack up, puts his head up for bridle so undo cheek piece and flick headpiece over the top but he opens his mouth for the bit. New saddle and re-fitted twice, back check and teeth done. He has really grown up and is a pleasure until you try and get on him and He full on panics the minute you even try and lean.
I can stand on chair next to him and play drums on his saddle , fling his stirrups round, wave arms all over his back but minute foot goes near stirrup he freezes and goes so tense.
When giving some a leg up he will let them lean (as long as someone else at head supplying him with treats!) but minute try and wiggle leg over he explodes and bronks on the spot!
I have thought about a dummy but I don't think I could get it on him before he goes and I certainly couldn't hold him so would need to get it on him in an indoor school or round pens and then just let him go but would this scare him more?
I am tempted to try bareback again but is he does would have no chance of staying on.
Any suggestions?
 
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I’m not very experienced in backing so hopefully someone better will come along. But my best advice is don’t be in a hurry just because he is a certain age. I had a panicer, I didn’t feel like I was in a hurry but in reality he wasn’t mentally or physically ready or in the right situation with the right herd support and I wish I had left him another year or more. I tried the dummy and regretted it instantly (he crashed through a fence and went beserk until the straps failed and the dummy was torn limb from limb). My poor horse. I nearly ruined him and i think the experience affected his whole ridden life after that. I’m lucky he is so generous. Now at 12 years old he is a joy to ride but still has his moments.

Other things I have learned is that the saddle I had fitted year after year by one of the best saddler fitters in the country actually didn’t fit him. When he was 10 i bought a different one and fitted it myself and the difference in my hollow tense stress-ey horse was amazing, he softened and relaxed immediately and it was the start of a huge transformation. This was after refitting the same saddle twice a year for 6 years!
 
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Haven't had a full shire but we did have a 3/4 one. When we bought him at 4yrs he was just a big foal really both physically and mentally.... he didn't really mature in either sense until he was about 8yrs.
I would wonder if he has a memory of a saddle pinching on mounting.
 
If I've read it right, you got him when he was 2 or 3 and backed him when he was 2 years 6 months or 3 years 6 months. I'd say that was very young for such a big horse. I'd have gone with handling, long reining, intro to lunging (big elliptical shapes), etc. With a saddle on if at the older end. Then turned away. Then back to remind of all and introduce the rider.
 
MrsMozart said:
If I've read it right, you got him when he was 2 or 3 and backed him when he was 2 years 6 months or 3 years 6 months. I'd say that was very young for such a big horse. I'd have gone with handling, long reining, intro to lunging (big elliptical shapes), etc. With a saddle on if at the older end. Then turned away. Then back to remind of all and introduce the rider.
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I was thinking the very same thing.
 
Another Shire in the wrong environment. People really need to realise that the lovely saying of 'Shires, are gentle giants' does not mean they are born sensible and biddable. They are highly intelligent, very forward thinking and willing horses and their formative education needs to be done carefully and by the right person.

If this horse is accepting all the ground work in a calm and trusting manner before losing the plot as someone gets on board it would suggest one of two possibilities, the first is that the horse is in pain as it takes any weight and/or cannot cope with chest/girth compression, the second is it has a fear of anything above and behind its neck and head.

OP, you need professional help in probably both veterinary and horsemanship. I have been exactly where you are now and despite having had horses for 40 years, I have learnt more from the Shire I have had since 2012 than all the other horses over 4 decades ever taught me about breaking and handling horses. Mine has just turned 6 and I am still learning how to handle and educate him.

Get help and don't get yourself hurt, being flattened by a panicking Shire isn't fun - I speak from experience - several experience's !
 
Very sound advice from AA, it's great to do things all yourself but sometimes you have to bit the bullet and get help. I think we have all been there at some point, perhaps someone could think of a different approach, it's always great to get another pair of eyes and another load of knowledge. :)
All the best OP let us know how it goes!
 
MrsMozart said:
If I've read it right, you got him when he was 2 or 3 and backed him when he was 2 years 6 months or 3 years 6 months. I'd say that was very young for such a big horse. I'd have gone with handling, long reining, intro to lunging (big elliptical shapes), etc. With a saddle on if at the older end. Then turned away. Then back to remind of all and introduce the rider.
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We were told he was 4 when we brought him and his passport agreed with this however both vet and dentist aged him at 3 last summer so 6 months post buying him. This is why not been in a rush and basically this summer gone back and done lot of groundwork, he has physically matured a lot in last 12 months. if his passport if right he is rising 7 although I suspect he is more like 4/5 now
 
AdorableAlice said:
Another Shire in the wrong environment. People really need to realise that the lovely saying of 'Shires, are gentle giants' does not mean they are born sensible and biddable. They are highly intelligent, very forward thinking and willing horses and their formative education needs to be done carefully and by the right person.

If this horse is accepting all the ground work in a calm and trusting manner before losing the plot as someone gets on board it would suggest one of two possibilities, the first is that the horse is in pain as it takes any weight and/or cannot cope with chest/girth compression, the second is it has a fear of anything above and behind its neck and head.

OP, you need professional help in probably both veterinary and horsemanship. I have been exactly where you are now and despite having had horses for 40 years, I have learnt more from the Shire I have had since 2012 than all the other horses over 4 decades ever taught me about breaking and handling horses. Mine has just turned 6 and I am still learning how to handle and educate him.

Get help and don't get yourself hurt, being flattened by a panicking Shire isn't fun - I speak from experience - several experience's !
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Thank you for your advice, I would disagreed with wrong environment, he so loved and happy to handle from the ground that as long as he is happy I am happy. He has a home for life which is main thing, it would be nice though if we could get him ride able as OH would love to hack with me.

He has been checked by vet and physio. I have an amazing instructor who has been helping along the way with long reining etc. I made a mistake with yard I trusted with him last summer but this could have been done regardless of the type of breed he is.

His long reining is truly amazing now and we go out for hours and he is fantastic so he has regular mental engagement.

I do take your advice on board and I will be speaking to vet about xrays and maybe looking at yards that can re-back him for me but I am reluctant to send him away after last year
 
Shires are sharp! They are not the same as Clydesdales, ime. Clydies are much more phlegmatic, laid back and accommodating. The thing that stands out to me in OP is the phrase; "He was always on edge but pretty much accepted it all". The early training should have been slower and continued at each stage until he was comfortable with it and no longer on edge. It sounds to me as if the stress left over from each stage has built up until he can no longer handle something new, like getting on with a saddle.
Yes definitely have his back checked thoroughly, which might well include x-rays but really I advise getting someone who knows a lot about ridden Shires to take the horse back several steps and teach you how to deal with him. Of course the problem might just be that the saddle is a poor fit.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Shires are sharp! They are not the same as Clydesdales, ime. Clydies are much more phlegmatic, laid back and accommodating. The thing that stands out to me in OP is the phrase; "He was always on edge but pretty much accepted it all". The early training should have been slower and continued at each stage until he was comfortable with it and no longer on edge. It sounds to me as if the stress left over from each stage has built up until he can no longer handle something new, like getting on with a saddle.
Yes definitely have his back checked thoroughly, which might well include x-rays but really I advise getting someone who knows a lot about ridden Shires to take the horse back several steps and teach you how to deal with him. Of course the problem might just be that the saddle is a poor fit.
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They are very very different from Clydes.

I have already offended the op and this probably will too, are you sure the horse isn't training you to be cautious around him. I know it sounds stupid but my horse did this to me and I simply did not see it happening.

Mine was feral and incredibly nervous with a huge flight response and I had plenty of mishaps along the way. i was not frightened of him but he taught me to be very cautious around him and it turned into a vicious circle where neither of us trusted one another.

He went to a breaker who specialises in nervous horses and watching the breaker work with the horse I realised why I had come unstuck. Quite simply when the horse said he was uncomfortable I backed off, fearing he would explode and/or clear off. Therefore I was effectively encouraging him to be nervous. The breaker simply pressed on and expected the horse to accept and relax, when he did the pressure was removed. The horse was being taught to be confident.

I am not sure I have explained this too well but hopefully you see what I mean.
 
Don't underestimate how intelligent these draft horses are. As AA mentions, they are capable of training you and I regularly get lessons to support me with mine.

It's also far too easy to move your training on too quickly. They seem to pick things up so easily you can be tempted to keep extending the training (they quickly learn how to earn a reward) so you have to keep repeating and building.
 
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Never give up, get the right help and enjoy the end result.
 
AdorableAlice said:
They are very very different from Clydes.

I have already offended the op and this probably will too, are you sure the horse isn't training you to be cautious around him. I know it sounds stupid but my horse did this to me and I simply did not see it happening.

Mine was feral and incredibly nervous with a huge flight response and I had plenty of mishaps along the way. i was not frightened of him but he taught me to be very cautious around him and it turned into a vicious circle where neither of us trusted one another.

He went to a breaker who specialises in nervous horses and watching the breaker work with the horse I realised why I had come unstuck. Quite simply when the horse said he was uncomfortable I backed off, fearing he would explode and/or clear off. Therefore I was effectively encouraging him to be nervous. The breaker simply pressed on and expected the horse to accept and relax, when he did the pressure was removed. The horse was being taught to be confident.

I am not sure I have explained this too well but hopefully you see what I mean.
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I TOTALLY get this. It's how I was with Dave & now & again I catch myself at it again. I back off when I should be giving him confidence.
Again AA hits it right on the head.
 
Update......
Wow what a busy few months! I had been long reining him in tack for 6 weeks every couple of days, he then spent last 6 weeks at a very confident friends who was on him within a week and then spent the next 5 weeks hacking him out! Last weekend my hubby went and hacked him out and then today we boxed my pony over hacked together and brought both home, now just got to keep it up!
Friend discovered it’s not the mounting he hated but putting foot in stirrup to get on when vaulting from block he was fine, he’s now starting to get use to mounting with stirrup, once on he’s a completely sweetheart and very chilled :)
 
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