SHB(GB)- Barefoot haters?!

dianchi

dianchi

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After being entirely in support of the association and their brave stance on the wearing of appropriate hats in hunter classes they have now lost my support.

I am looking to show my mare next year in novice hunter classes and possibly 4yo classes, however close examination of the rule book demands that she be shod.

She doesn't need shoes, neither sire or dam wear shoes and she has fab strong feet.

Now thinking that as this is a NOVICE class and no qualification to anything that this might be waivered so I contacted the office............

Response I got:

"Thank you for your email. The ruling relating to horses having to be shod all round relates to all SHB(GB) ridden Hunter classes. The reason behind it is mainly one of safety for not only competitors but also our ride judges who the Society has a duty of care towards. The rule was introduced as a result of feed back and concerns expressed by competitors and judges - grass rings in wet weather can prove slippery. The matter was given a great deal of thought before the rule was introduced as it is appreciated that some people do have unshod horses."

So I queried that the national show is on surface every year and would it be possible here?

"No, you would be disqualified for an unshod horse in any SHB(GB) ridden hunter class."

So in short us that choose barefoot as there is no need to shoe our horses are dangerous and not taking duty of care in the eyes of SHB(GB)

BSHA however have no such demands and will happily allow barefoot, as do IDSH(GB), BS, BD, BE, PC.............................

And as a final point at the bottom of their email...........

"Currently there are no plans to change this ruling"

Bye Bye SHBGB- looks like my 4yo will be off to the HOYS classes then!
 
What nonsense: I don't believe "shod competitors" would express such an opinion ...... "barefooter competitiors" would not, shod would either have no opinion/experience, or if they believed it, they would want barefooters to continue so they would all fall over and be led from the ring in disgrace.


I would ask for a copy of the report and the numbers and so on, it sounds like the usual "this is the way we do it"

.................. I was placed last in an unaffiliated showing class, but judge was more concerned if he would kick or not [I could only say "he has never done it ............", [but I cannot guarantee it if you keep keep creeping silently round his rear end]
Anyway turned out that I need a double bridle and all the kit, I though "working" meant "dress as one would be to "work " ...... he is an endurance horse! Shoes were never mentioned.
 
Im sure unafill we would be fine, but I wanted her to get full experience at county level.

Stupidly though I can have no shoes for Sports Horse classes as judge doesn't ride?

So any judges on here that can shed any light? Is this a judge led motion?
 
It's absolutely ridiculous. I watched a competitor last year at Blair Horse Trials in the FINALS of their working hunter class (run under these rules) get eliminated AFTER she had just jumped a lovely clear round just because her horse had no hind shoes on! Total joke and very very unfair.
 
I heard about this a few months ago and was as enraged about it as I am now. Absolutely ridiculous, just because a horse has shoes on does not necessarily mean the person riding it will stud it up... which renders the shoes useless if they say they have enforced that rule to stop the horses slipping!
 
I can't shed any light on it but I remember the anger at Blair last year. What I will say is that personally I think it is daft as, from my experience, barefoot horses have more grip on grass than plain shod horses. Surely a horse that doesn't have suitable studs in for the ground conditions or no studs at all would slip more than a barefoot horse?
 
Ok so lets say they are "right" and shod horses are better on grass....................

Anyone explain the all weather surface argument please?
 
MagicMelon said:
It's absolutely ridiculous. I watched a competitor last year at Blair Horse Trials in the FINALS of their working hunter class (run under these rules) get eliminated AFTER she had just jumped a lovely clear round just because her horse had no hind shoes on! Total joke and very very unfair.
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I think that's fair enough though tbh, the rule wasnt new one and she should have known the rules, that's her responsibility no one else's. I expect as soon as it was noticed her horse was shod she was eliminated, just her bad luck if she thought she could get away with it indefinitely or she didn't read the rules. That said, I think the no barefoot rule itself is utterly utterly ridiculous, their rules though...I just don't like their rules and so it's enough to make me show elsewhere.
 
starry23 said:
I can't shed any light on it but I remember the anger at Blair last year. What I will say is that personally I think it is daft as, from my experience, barefoot horses have more grip on grass than plain shod horses. Surely a horse that doesn't have suitable studs in for the ground conditions or no studs at all would slip more than a barefoot horse?
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This is my thinking too, it seems barmy! I know if I had a choice of riding a barefoot or a fully shod horse on grass , I would choose the barefoot one everyday of the week. I even fret when riding mine who is only shod in front. I wonder how many people in these classes actually stud up as well?! I used to groom for someone who showed show hunters so saw a lot of classes, and I never noted one horse that was studded!
 
I'm a fairly conservative person so if it was me, I'd just shoe my horse... I wear a snaffle for dressage because it is the rules, too, despite the furore about bitless dressage.

Do I think it's a stupid rule? Yes, probably. But equally I'd follow the rules to compete.

I agree if you are not happy, show with another body that allows barefoot, and then you will make your ire known.
 
be positive said:
I think it was brought in following the case where the judge was badly injured, link below, it had nothing to do with being shod or not but was obviously part of a big health and safety review, probably involving the insurance companies who would be paying out in the event of any injury, if a horse fell due to slipping then who is liable?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/showing/judge-injured-at-dublin-horse-show-settles-out-of-court/
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One could argue that shod horses, and studded in particular, pose a greater risk of injury than unshod, to people on the ground and other horses. In racing no studs or raised nails are allowed, and lets face it they are galloping at 30-40mph on grass, jumping hurdles and fences at speed. There are a few barefoot, and no one thought it was a safety issue.
 
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khalswitz said:
I'm a fairly conservative person so if it was me, I'd just shoe my horse... I wear a snaffle for dressage because it is the rules, too, despite the furore about bitless dressage.

Do I think it's a stupid rule? Yes, probably. But equally I'd follow the rules to compete.

I agree if you are not happy, show with another body that allows barefoot, and then you will make your ire known.
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I cant show in Novice classes as it would appear only SHBGB run these. However if BSHA are going to keep running HOYS hunters hopefully they will branch out! Not really appropriate to put a 4yo in an open class to start with but what can you do?

However if this is there argument slipping etc, why cant I show on all weather surfaces?
 
Bonkers2 said:
One could argue that shod horses, and studded in particular, pose a greater risk of injury than unshod, to people on the ground and other horses. In racing no studs or raised nails are allowed, and lets face it they are galloping at 30-40mph on grass, jumping hurdles and fences at speed. There are a few barefoot, and no one thought it was a safety issue.
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I am not starting an argument as it has no effect on me one way or another but in a hunter class there are no people on the ground or other horses at risk from one that wears studs, or there shouldn't be in normal circumstances, in racing horses fall regularly, many slip on the flat or when landing, the risk to a fallen jockey or horse is immense which is why studs are banned, falling is part of racing and the jockeys know the risk, being well insured and paid to do the job.

I think the rule was probably brought in as an overreaction, there was as far as I remember a fairly big debate at the time, many people involved with showing hunters would have been consulted but it is more than likely it was something they could easily implement to reduce the risk to the judges, the other option would possibly be for the judge to refuse to ride an unshod horse if they felt the ground was slippy and they were at risk by riding in the conditions, that may be more fair to those that want to be unshod but leaves the judge open to criticism if they decline to ride, which they are at liberty to do if they feel a horse is not safe but will rarely do so.
 
dianchi said:
I cant show in Novice classes as it would appear only SHBGB run these. However if BSHA are going to keep running HOYS hunters hopefully they will branch out! Not really appropriate to put a 4yo in an open class to start with but what can you do?

However if this is there argument slipping etc, why cant I show on all weather surfaces?
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Ok, no Novice classes elsewhere is a bummer.

I had a similar argument with BRC a few years ago at an ODE. I didn't have gaiters as my zip had bust, and took along BRAND NEW very stiff and very clean half chaps. I was told by the XC steward that these were not acceptable, as they do not give enough support to the leg in the case of an accident such as broken bone. Ok, I said, fair enough. However, they added, you can ride in your jodhpur boots alone if you like.

What? You ban half chaps on safety, but allow nothing at all for support? half chaps are better than nothing, and they were very smart, not scruffy.

You can borrow long boots, they said. I wa suffered a pair two sizes too big. That'll do, they said. HOW MUCH SUPPORT DO I GET FROM THESE????

However, rules are rules, and I was made to ride with just my jodh boots. Reasoning was totally stupid, but that was the rule.

I do understand where you are coming from, but equally there are a lot of rules on things like dress that have no real reason what so ever and we go along with them. I guess I am a bit of the opinion that if you want to do it, you follow the rules - if not do something different.
 
be positive said:
I am not starting an argument as it has no effect on me one way or another but in a hunter class there are no people on the ground or other horses at risk from one that wears studs, or there shouldn't be in normal circumstances, in racing horses fall regularly, many slip on the flat or when landing, the risk to a fallen jockey or horse is immense which is why studs are banned, falling is part of racing and the jockeys know the risk, being well insured and paid to do the job.

I think the rule was probably brought in as an overreaction, there was as far as I remember a fairly big debate at the time, many people involved with showing hunters would have been consulted but it is more than likely it was something they could easily implement to reduce the risk to the judges, the other option would possibly be for the judge to refuse to ride an unshod horse if they felt the ground was slippy and they were at risk by riding in the conditions, that may be more fair to those that want to be unshod but leaves the judge open to criticism if they decline to ride, which they are at liberty to do if they feel a horse is not safe but will rarely do so.
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If, for an example, a judge has been thrown once I think he is entitled to refuse to ride, that is common sense, the horse is not fit for the job and the rules should allow for it to be removed from the ring just as it would be if lame.
We know judges prefer to avoid direct confrontation, but rather than exclude competitors for one [controversial] reason, they should feel able to accept that responsibility. If the grass is wet and slippy they may refuse to ride at all.

They can pay for insurance, I mean if they are riding horses they don't know, it is only common sense, but insurance might well not pay out readily if there is some exclusion or part blame, this is how it works.
 
Whilst I understand that rules are rules, saying that its a rule due to slipping on grass (I have the email to prove as such)
Why cant I enter on all weather?

Equally I CAN enter a sports horse class, run by the same organising body running in the same ring/show
logic????
 
Sports horses are not ridden by the judge so if you slip you are not putting a judge at risk only yourself and hence can be barefoot.
If you dont like the rules find something else to do.
BSPS dont allow heartbar shoes or anything other than bog standard normal shoes (they do allow barefoot) andI have had to eliminate a few riders who try to get round it.
Those are the rules either comply or find anouther discipline
 
conniegirl said:
Sports horses are not ridden by the judge so if you slip you are not putting a judge at risk only yourself and hence can be barefoot.
If you dont like the rules find something else to do.
BSPS dont allow heartbar shoes or anything other than bog standard normal shoes (they do allow barefoot) andI have had to eliminate a few riders who try to get round it.
Those are the rules either comply or find anouther discipline
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But its not the case of find another discipline!
BSHA run the HOYS quals and you can be barefoot!
 
One of our SPs (unshod) slipped on a corner on dewy grass in an early class at PUK a few years ago, skidded along the ground and broke his young jockey's femur. Would it have happened if he was shod? Who knows!
Rules are rules I'm afraid, even if you do disagree with them. if I really wanted to show County level I would just shoe my horse. For me it's no biggie. They're not asking you to cut his lugs off ;)
As for HOYs classes with a 4 year old home produced animal in a snaffle I'm afraid I just wouldn't. Apart from the extortionate cost of HOYs qualifiers he's going to look completely out of place.
Oops - just realised 'he's' a 'she' sorry for redefining your young mare's gender!!
 
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minesadouble said:
As for HOYs classes with a 4 year old home produced animal in a snaffle I'm afraid I just wouldn't. Apart from the extortionate cost of HOYs qualifiers he's going to look completely out of place.
Oops - just realised 'he's' a 'she' sorry for redefining your young mare's gender!!
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I think I've missed the part where OP mentions what bit she would be using, could you point it out for me as I'm going cross eyed looking.
 
Capriole said:
I think I've missed the part where OP mentions what bit she would be using, could you point it out for me as I'm going cross eyed looking.
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Oops - sorry Capriole, don't waste your time going cross eyes as am pretty sure it was an earlier thread where OP asked if it would be OK to show at County level in a snaffle with cheeks.
 
Is your horse a lightweight? If so then try novice riding horse classes if you just want to get experience - I fully appreciate that a LW hunter is not the same as a large riding horse but if you just want to get exposure then novice RH classes with a ride judge are run under BSHA rules and don't require shoes!

**if you have a MW or HW hunter ignore me!
 
Bonkers2 said:
If, for an example, a judge has been thrown once I think he is entitled to refuse to ride, that is common sense, the horse is not fit for the job and the rules should allow for it to be removed from the ring just as it would be if lame.
We know judges prefer to avoid direct confrontation, but rather than exclude competitors for one [controversial] reason, they should feel able to accept that responsibility. If the grass is wet and slippy they may refuse to ride at all.

They can pay for insurance, I mean if they are riding horses they don't know, it is only common sense, but insurance might well not pay out readily if there is some exclusion or part blame, this is how it works.
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I can't let this comment go. Quite an insult to judges, most of whom gave up our time for nothing much more than a bottle of wine and a lunch.

As a competitor it is your responsibility to produce a horse that is safe, schooled and mannerly to both the ride and the conformation judge. Under no circumstances is the judge there to school your horse or be expected to deal with any bad manners, high spirits or plain ignorance.

The judge is entitled to send your horse out long before it has dumped him. As a competitor you are entitled to expect the ride judge to ride your horse correctly and fairly. Your horse should be presented in a safe state in terms of tack and way of going.

John Chugg's fall changed his and his family's life forever.

On the point of shoes I can see both points of view. We should be striving to breed and produce hunters with top quality feet to ensure soundness and longevity, but equally we have a duty of care to ride judges and other competitors in the ring. The season closes tomorrow at Moreton in the Marsh and there will be a few unbalanced horses skidding their way round the rings. Both shod and unshod horses will skid around but properly schooled horses will go a lot better than the unschooled.
 
rules are rules but i don't get why you are not allowed to compete on an all weather arena without shoes
but my friend's horse is unshod behind and following him out hacking on grass , you couldn't pay me enough to ride that horse without shoes as he slides all over the place when my fully shod horse does not have a problem with the ground at all
the unshod horse may have a better grip on the road surface, but not in my opinion on grass

i have seen this horse nearly go down twice now from a walk ! i'd hate to see him without front shoes
so i can fully see why this rule has been brought in due to safety of the ride judge


tin hat at the ready as i am sure i am now about to be slated
 
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