SHB (GB v AES

None of these studbooks are prurebred. For me, the rankings point not to the quality of the stallions but the quality of the mares and the quality of the breeders in the country.
 
Yet the (say) German or Dutch mares couldn't have come up with the goods without the influence of the French stallions. Not that these mares were bad, just that something extra was needed or else some catalyst was needed to the bring out their qualities. (Like the TB on the ID?). Likewise the French sires didn't appear out of nowhere; there were presumably good mares behind them too.

So you would lay emphasis on the mare in any breeding plan?
 
Absolutely. Mares are the foundation and breeders are going nowhere if they do not have good mares. This is where most breeders make their mistake -- selection of mares for their breeding program.

My rantings on this subject can be found on my blog.
 
Hey, BRILLIANT blog; much too good to skim- I am saving it to read later.
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Mares have to be the foundation. Even when selecting a stallion you should look at what his mother line has produced. My aim as a breeder is to consistently improve my mare base. I was very lucky this season as one cross I did was specifically to try and breed a future broodmare and I got the filly I wanted who is from a top mother line by a known sire of broodmares. Had that been a colt he would have difficult to sell as not a commercial pedigree, but as a broodmare pedigree it is wonderful.
It's going to take me generations to get the broodmare band I want, but at least its something to aim for
 
As anyone who has tried to trace the breeding of their horse can confirm, trying to find info on the mares is extreamly difficult at times. I have hardly had a problems find info or photos of the stallion lines for either of the stallions I used. The mares though have proved much more difficult, I have tracked down the stallion's mare only to have problems communicating with the new owner who is German & speaks very little English. The mare is responsible for at least 2 graded sons one of which is now in America. Allbreeds is only as good as the people inputting the info. This is a shame has how much easier to go to the report & request info on progeny. I have & still do spend many hours trawling through websites trying to find more info, but it is very time consuming & often leads to dead ends. On the other hand when new info is found it can be quiet exciting. How much easier to just be able to access one database. It would be great to say never breed from a mare because you dont know her breeding, but some of these mares have proved to be sucessful. Also at the end of the day as said so many times before the majority of horse owners are everyday riders needing horses that they can ride. I will leave the International bred horses to the experts because even if one of us hobby breeders were to breed one, doubtful we would have the expertise to ride it!! So though breeding from my mare of unknown parentage (probably because some dealer chose to loose any pprs for her), will have experts raising their eyebrows, I am not too concerned so long as her offspring are sound enough both in body & mind to give years of fun & enjoyment to us or whoever owns him.
 
I totally agree mares are very important - there are so many who produce more than one good foal eg dam of Matinee and Ballseyr Royale. I love tracing bloodines as well Magic and it gets very frustrating when info cannot be found.
Tom - some great info in your blog & lovely horses but I did find your suggestion to pay people to kill their mares which are not suitable for breeding a little hard to take.
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and interesting to wonder how it would work in practice.
 
I think that suggestion is a bit harsh as well. There are obvious faults that you would not want to breed from ie parrot mouthed mares. But there are mares that act as surrogates so do they have to have excellent confo? I agree there are mares that never in a million years should ever produce a foal, but more often then not their offspring give pleasure to their owners. My daugher had a pony mare that was in-foal when we bought her, I would never have chosen to breed from this mare, yet her son is a super ride/drive pony. He has a fantastic temperment & knocks spots off his dam (a bit of a pun as she was a snowflake & he is a leopard spot). Temperment is all important as is the market place for these horses. With all due respect if all horses were bred in the way you describe then an awful lot of people are going to have to improve their riding ability because an awful lot of these horses would be wasted. There are people who are happy with their cobs & dont want to end up at Olympia. I agree with most of the points raised, but 2. Only breed to top quality stallions. Fine but who is to say what is a top class stallion if the stallion was never owned by someone prepared or could afford to put him with a professional rider to prove b) a solid competition record that is improving with each year. Why would someone who is breeding for the general market need a stallion with world class breeding? I am not having a go, but most of the horses I have seen breed in the way you describe, just would not be suitable for the everyday rider. Coolcorron Cool Diamond was an international SJ & is owned by Robert Splaine, so far though as a stallion of top class competition horses he falls way behind CR. I get the reports from the Irish Horse Board, where I have yet to see him figure in the breeding. Below taken from a report which I am sure you would have received;
The Irish Horse Board is indebted to the Showjumping Association of Ireland for their assistance with the Genetic Evaluation Report.

The highest ranked stallions for showjumping ability in the 2007 Genetic Evaluation Results are as follows:
1. Hermes de Reve (Be) by Quito de Baussy (SF)
2. Flex a Bill (ISH) by Cruising (ISH)
3. Portorico (KWPN) by Kroongraaf (KWPN)
4. Clover Flush (ISH) by Clover Hill (RID)
5. Leeroy GZ KB (SWWB) by Lombard (HOLS)
6. Captain Clover (ISH) by Clover Hill (RID)
7. Warrenstown You 2 (ISH) by Narcos II (SF)
8. Sir Rivie (RID) by Sea Crest (RID)
9. Dow Jones Courcel (SF) by Quito de Baussy (SF)
10. Cruising (ISH) by Sea Crest (RID)

http://www.ihb.ie/_fileupload/publications/report%202007%20final%20version.pdf

If the son I used had been with someone else, who knows perhaps he would have been up with the best. I am also sure there are/have been a lot of talented horses that have missed out because of the lack of talent on the riders part.
 
I agree with your statement. Everybody concentrates on how great the stallion is but the mare is just as important, if not more so as the foal develops within the mare and for the first few months will learn what they will carry for the rest of their lives from the mare which could decide it's destiny.

Do people put to much emphasis on who the horse is registered with? A horse will not be better (or worse) with the color of the passport it has.

If a breeder is in Ireland or the UK and the horse is born there then it is Irish or British horse. Again it is the bloodline of the horse that is important not who it is registered with. If it enahances the bloodlines that can be used in that country by other breeders, that is the most imortant thing. There is no sure way thing to breed a good horse but it is all about narrowing the odds and putting a good mare to the best stallion the breeder feels will best compliment it. I think to many people have hang ups about the studbooks as a good horse will get into any studbook if it enhances that society and you are prepared to pay for it.
 
I cant see the Trakehners or Hanoverians accepting some of the horses bred in Britain no matter how nice they are, if they don't conform to their pedigree requirements. And when I am buying a horse the passport really does matter (more so now than when i started out) as I am finding the buyers of my foals are getting more particular about what paperwork they want with their foals.
The OP presumably had a choice between SHB and AES for registration and it seems SHB is more favourable among the readers of this board who presumably then do see it as important what paperwork a horse has.

Also depending who you register with, a British bred horse I think can be considered Dutch for example. I think if you register KWPN and your horse went on to do great things, the KWPN and therefore the Dutch would get the credit, despite it being a horse foaled in Britain. Maybe they should put the initials (UK) after the name of the foal like they do in TB breeding (eg IRE or FR) to signify the birth place of the foal.
 
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Also depending who you register with, a British bred horse I think can be considered Dutch for example. I think if you register KWPN and your horse went on to do great things, the KWPN and therefore the Dutch would get the credit, despite it being a horse foaled in Britain.

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I'm sorry, I too am a lurker but that statement is like a red rag to a bull for me.

If a British bred horse is registered with the KWPN it does NOT mean the horse is Dutch. Likewise if a British bred horse is registered with the Oldenburg Verband it does NOT mean the horse is German and if a Dutch bred horse is registered with the AES it does NOT mean the horse is British.

Things have moved on - these are now international breeding organisations.

A horse registered with the KWPN represents that particular breeding organisation. A horse born in the UK represents the expertise of British breeders. This is not directed at you Volatis but I think you'd have to be ill informed, out-dated or just plain prejudiced to say a British-bred KWPN registered horse represents the expertise of Dutch breeders.

OK, rant over... will now go back to lurking!
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Sorry Wisnette I didnt say it represents the expertise of dutch breeders at all. I just said that 'I think' a British bred KWPN registered foal, if it went onto international glory, would show up in the WBFSH listings as KWPN, and therefore would boost the KWPN standings up that list, as the KWPN doesn't have a daughter organisation here like the BHHS for example.


That was in reply to The Voice's comment that 'If a breeder is in Ireland or the UK and the horse is born there then it is Irish or British horse.'
Of course it is a British/Irish horse, however when looking at the list of WBFSH studbooks surely it will show as KWPN, so who is going to know it is British bred? If it was KWPN (UK) the rest of the world would know it was a British bred, KWPN registered horse, but when it just says KWPN, how do you know?

I'm not trying to upset anyone here just an observation and a question
 
A horse that we bred appeared on the Zangersheide Rankings last year and they listed the breeders so you could see the country the horse was bred, so I suspect that the others such as KWPN etc etc may do it.

A horse may go through different owners and appear on different studbooks but the one name that never disapears especially on passports is the breeder.
 
I'm sorry for the rant Volatis, I'm just fed up of a small minority who say we must give British based studbooks our blind support because only then will our horses be 'properly' British-bred. I've also been told I should only use stallions based in the UK or stallions with only TB or native blood for exactly the same reason.
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My feeling is British breeders should be free to use whatever breeding organisation, stallions etc they choose to help them breed the best quality foals.

You are right though, in the WBFSH studbook rankings, a British bred KWPN horse will represent the KWPN just like a Dutch or Belgian or Irish bred KWPN horse. If people want to see the nationality of the horses, perhaps the WBFSH would bow to popular pressure and include country of birth with the rest of the horses details.... or maybe it could even produce a new ranking - a sort of ranking of nations.
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Writing only as an enthusiast rather than a practitioner, I too would like to see the WBFSH produce an additional ranking list to reflect breeding activity within each country.
 
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You are right though, in the WBFSH studbook rankings, a British bred KWPN horse will represent the KWPN just like a Dutch or Belgian or Irish bred KWPN horse. If people want to see the nationality of the horses, perhaps the WBFSH would bow to popular pressure and include country of birth with the rest of the horses details.... or maybe it could even produce a new ranking - a sort of ranking of nations.
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You should try the showing world
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The snidy comments we have had about daring to show a Trakehner (British bred i might add) in the Hack breeding classes (probably cos we beat them
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) and then the blank looks when my boss says she has bred her HOYS Hack winner to a Trakehner stallion based in Germany, well I am sure they think we should both be bared for not using British TB stallions.

But that is the point I was making - the WBFSH rankings don't reflect how the Brits are doing as a nation of breeders and regardless of which stud book used, I'd love to see the country of birth reflect the time, money and expertise British breeders put in, so that the rets of Europe starts to come shopping here a bit more often.
 
In the Arab-breeding world the whole 'nationality' issue is becoming increasingly difficult to untangle.

To take just one example, my boy Tobago was bred in Britain, but using frozen semen from a stallion standing in Belgium, who was himself bred in the US, but from mainly Russian, English and Polish bloodlines, with a dash of Egyptian. Tobago's dam was bred in Britain, but from an imported Russian sire out of an English mare, bred in the UK but then exported to Holland and re-imported to Britain.
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Tobago's semen is now being exported, including back to Belgium, and one of his Belgian foals (from a US-bred mare) is being sold in utero to be imported back to Britain at weaning....
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What nationality is this foal?
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What nationality is Tobago, for that matter?
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And does it really matter, as long as we are breeding the best possible horses?
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I dont think it does matter, except when the horse breeding nation in question does not attract buyers (and that is overseas buyers and our own buyers) as there is a mis conception that all the best horses are bred abroad. I dont know how it works in the arabian world but many British compeitive rides will look to mainland Europe for their compeition horses in the belief that that is where the best ones are bred. If the British based stud books show so low on the world rankings, there is then no statistical evidence to back up any claim as to the prowess of British bred horses. We might claim to breed the best eventers but why does the WBFSH stats not back that up?
 
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If the British based stud books show so low on the world rankings, there is then no statistical evidence to back up any claim as to the prowess of British bred horses. We might claim to breed the best eventers but why does the WBFSH stats not back that up?

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Just because the SHBGB, BHHS, BWBS or AES studbooks aren't top of the rankings doesn't mean we don't breed top eventers. As it happens, I think we do breed the best (along with Ireland
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) its just our eventers are TB's or registered in Weatherbys NTR or not registered at all and therefore they don't show up on the WBFSH studbook rankings.

That's my point - the studbook rankings aren't the same as a ranking of nations.
 
Exactly my point Wisnette. On the thread on the other forum about the WBFSH rankings I was actually a little annoyed that a number of top British bred eventers showed up as studbook unknown, or even god forbid breeding unknown.
Like Headley brittania and Flint Curtis.

If there was a Ranking of Nations then you'd hope the Brits would be right up there in the eventing sector.

I just get annoyed when people quote the kWPN/Hanoverian/whichever European studbook is number 1 again, and you think yes, but its partly because you got the registration right a few years back and so receieve the plaudits for your nation's breeding results. Don't get me wrong I am the first to use a German based stallion if it's the stallion I want, but i want to see British Breeders as a whole get the pat on the back they deserve.

Umm think this thread has gone a little off topic
 
Its turned up some useful stuff though; one worrying point being for me that though as a breeder I would expect to get help from whatever studbook system I was using, to some extent the studbooks and registration systems actually seem to be divisive; a negative influence, reducing the choice of stallions available to any particular mare, subverting credit due to the country of origin or the breed of origin; loading the breeder with an extra financial burden and quite possibly selecting inappropriately from available youngstock as no-one can be sure how much ability and conformation go together, or even exactly what constitutes appropriate conformation (lok at how much the Warmblood has evolved over the last 20 years).

The benefits of registration ought to be obvious, but when you want information on an animals background or breeding, where do you turn first? Pedigree Query, as often as not! Its easy, all embracing and there are pictures...

I liked the way the Irish Horse Board presents its stallion information as demonstrated earlier on this post- where do we find comparable information for British bred stallions- and mares? After the acknowledgement of the importance of mares, where is the information on mares? In any case, we need to assess a horses' movement- yet here we are in the digital media age and does any studbook keep video records? Like b*ggery! Not many even show you a photograph!
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I was talking to a foreign breeder a few years ago and he made an interesting point. Abroad they really concentrate on breeding Showjumping and Dressage horses as this makes up 90% of sport horses and so studbooks are more organized. In the UK we look at breeding, Racehorses, Eventers, Showjumping, Dressage, showing, Fox Hunters etc so we are a lot more diverse in the way we breed horses and therefore our sudbooks are more fragmented.
 
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I liked the way the Irish Horse Board presents its stallion information as demonstrated earlier on this post...:(

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OK, but be aware that nice presentation does not mean that the data are useful.

The Irish Horse Board's breeding value for showjumping is worthless. All a horse has to do to be ranked high in the index is jump with some success in Ireland. He does not have to produce a single progeny that competes. And if he is a very good horse that jumps internationally his index score will suffer because those international results do not count and, because he is jumping internationally, he will not have results from competitions in Ireland.

I don't remember the exact number but about half of the top 10 horses in he shojwumping index have not produced a single progeny that is competing.

I could go on and on about the flaws in the index but I'll stop here.
 
But they did at least try to quantify conformation in a useful & accessible way; that was something. They also noted how many offspring had been assessed and gave an estimate of reliability based on this number. Its better than nothing.
 
In a statistical model like this "reliability" does NOT tell you if the model is mis-specified. Garbage in, garbage out. One can measure the wrong thing with great precison!

If one really thinks those top ten sires are the best sires in Ireland then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...
 
I think thats pretty poor, under the circumstances. A little bit of info would have gone a long way here.

I can't help feeling that there is a big gap between riders & breeders in this country which only relatively few people manage to bridge. To the rider the horse is the finished article (subject to training) and there's no more to be said about it, but to the breeder its the beginning; a comment on its family, a clue to what could be; a mare to breed from or a stallion to use or a gelding to learn from- how can people not see this?
 
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Absolutely. Mares are the foundation and breeders are going nowhere if they do not have good mares. This is where most breeders make their mistake -- selection of mares for their breeding program.

My rantings on this subject can be found on my blog.

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This debate on the relevant importance of stallion versus mare is a bit of an arid one and can lead to a bit of a futile disagreement.

Although -- with their extra input into the raising of the foal -- the mare actually has about 60% of input inot the foal, however outstanding your mare is, if you use a useless stallion, or a stallion less good than she is if we are talking Elite level -- then your breeding programme gets you nowhere. I have just been at the WBFSH General assembly in The Netherlands and as part of the practical side we visited Stal Roelof. Now there's a man who recognises the true importance of both sides of the pedigree -- and to what outstanding international effect. He based his breeding programme on 8 'northern Dutch' breeding mare lines 40 years ago and over the years has whitled them down to 4 mare lines of which he showed us examples of several generations. But what is really important is that IN EVERY GENERATION he uses a combination of an outside Elite stallion (eg Voltiare, Joost, Concorde) on his mares and also line breeds to the introduced Elite stallions over 3/4 generations. He also test jumps his foals at 5 months and as yearlings to see how they perform and bases his initial decisions as to whether he will raise and keep them or let them go out of his breeding and competition programme on that. The result is a group of uniform, athletic and very good looking horses competing up to World Class level (he bred Rupert R and stands him at stud and will do so once again once Peter Charles has finished with him) and although he told Johann Knapp 25 years ago that conformation doesn't matter, *becuase* form always follows function in a top equine athlete the horses are beatiful to look at as well and I am sure an ugly mare or stallion would soon find its way out -- however well it performed in sport -- becuase it did not have enough 'blood' (quality) to provide a basi for even further improvement in the programme in future years.

Back to Hollan tomorrow (this time for a dog show) so won't be able to follow this thread to closely as my Blackberry doesn't do forums <sigh> and I will not be back again until Tuesday but will be interested to see how it develops when I do get back.
 
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:You are right though, in the WBFSH studbook rankings, a British bred KWPN horse will represent the KWPN just like a Dutch or Belgian or Irish bred KWPN horse. If people want to see the nationality of the horses, perhaps the WBFSH would bow to popular pressure and include country of birth with the rest of the horses details.... or maybe it could even produce a new ranking - a sort of ranking of nations.
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They actually had a workshop on issues relating to this yesterday - and it came up in another form becuase some counties have problems with in-coming studbooks issuing passports that do not then appear on a central databse maintained for biosecurity reasons in the country of the foal's birth (sounds familiar!). As a result the WBFSH is now looking into it to see what they can do to help identify the true nationality of such horses without them having to loose their original studbook identity and UELN as a result.

We await developments with interest ...

BTW, nether AES nor SHBGB nor SSH were at the WBFSH General Assembly. The only UK studbook that was was BHHS, other Uk attendees were either onservers from BEF or journalists -- which didn;t mean that we couldn't conribute to the discussions of course as the meetings are all open to all delegates.
 
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In a statistical model like this "reliability" does NOT tell you if the model is mis-specified. Garbage in, garbage out. One can measure the wrong thing with great precison!


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But isn't this true of any attempt to compare animals from different backgrounds with different life chances? Sometimes you are measuring geographic location or rider ability or owner wealth or even the owners expectations- as in "This looks like a good horse so we'll give it a chance to prove it".
Top horses are necessarily good, but there can be better horses or more appropriate sires ranking below them in any listing, surely.
 
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