c_and_b
Well-Known Member
i wouldnt recommend it, i know it may be cheaper, but it may contain ingredients that might not do your horse the world of good
sheep wormer for horses???????
- Thread starter Cahill
- Start date
amandap
Well-Known Member
Yes and like many of the horse ones are full of mollasses. Sheep are quite sensitive to copper overdose so I imagine theirs are low in copper.
As an aside re drug/chemical laws magnesium oxide pure powder is only available over here (Ireland) with a vet prescription. Luckily calmag is available.
Borderreiver
Well-Known Member
As has been said it is illegal to import wormers.
They can only be sold in this country as VPS medicines, vets, pharmacists and SQP's, not by any old tack shop. If we don't stick to the rules which are designed to control these drugs, then some day soon they will only be available from vets as in many other countries already.
If the VMD catch you out importing wormers, there is a large fine to pay.
They can only be sold in this country as VPS medicines, vets, pharmacists and SQP's, not by any old tack shop. If we don't stick to the rules which are designed to control these drugs, then some day soon they will only be available from vets as in many other countries already.
If the VMD catch you out importing wormers, there is a large fine to pay.
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
R.E the licks, it depends which licks you pick, some are made off natural sugars such as what's found in grass where as some are made off sugar as found in sweet which is the worst sort. Also you want a lick that's heated not harden by chemacals which can be bitten off it chunks in swollowed.
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
But the levels off Ivermectin are so much lower than the amount off the active drug in the horse wormers as it's ment for sheep.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
This is not true. The amount of active chemical in the solution is the same for horses as for sheep. I have done all the molecular weight calculations using the table for milligrams per kg of bodyweight in the main veterinary book used by horse owners. Besides, several of us have our VETS recommending we use Oramec.
Of course sheep need less, they are smaller animals. That's why a sheep gets about 15 millilitres and a full size horse gets 150 millilitres. The dose rate for Ivermectin for sheep cows and horses delivered in Oramec is 2.5 millilitres per 10 kilograms of bodyweight of the live animal.
Last edited:
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
I was Reading in the sqp vet book today, yes it's the same active chemical but totally different amounts in the oramec compaired to horse wormers by quite a lot. It states clearly the active ivermectin levels per every animal wormer. Sheep is such a lower amount than horses. Which makes sence. Also how are you worming for tape?
I'm sorry but iv seen the amounts in black and White and it's sheep wormer for a reason, put just over double the amount off ivermetin in the oramec and you will be coming up to the strength off a horse wormer.
My vet will not even consider letting anybody have it for horses and stated one day " it will go tits up"
you wouldn't worm a elephant with a dog wormer would you even if the drug was the same. ( different strength totally) it's the same
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
It may be illegal but it's still b*ll*cks!
If I can buy, without any proof of identity, from a total stranger who does not know me from Adam, mail order Ivermectin Duo containing ivermectin and praziquantel from any one of at least 50 mail order suppliers of wormers in this country, why can I not buy Razor, containing exactly the same chemicals, using exactly the same information, from another country?
It may be illegal to import those wormers from Australia, but it's a pure technicality. No-one could possibly suggest it's any more dangerous than buying them from Surrey if you live in Manchester. And they cost around ONE THIRD of the price. Is it any wonder that people are taking the chance on them not being stopped by customs and impounded? (Is there anyone reading who has ever had a delivery impounded?) It serves the wormer suppliers right too, they need to stop ripping off horse owners in this country!
I would say, also, that if people with large horses were allowed to buy Razor they would be much less likely to underdose and cause worm resistance problems, because the syringe contains a double dose. So if you have a 700 kilo horse, you could do it in one shot, instead of taking the risk that one 600kg dose will do the job. For people with multiple horses it would also allow them to mix and match horses to do one big one and one small one from the one syringe without waste.
But of course it's illegal to import it, so although Australian suppliers will take the order and ship it, we can't. This is a shameful government support of a supplier price cartel in this country
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
But you DO worm cats cows horses and dogs with panacur (benzimidazole)! Why should ivermectin not be multispecies, you make no sense. I think you have your calculations wrong. If you use the table in "Veterinary notes for horse owners" for millgrams per kg of bodyweight and the Oramec milligrams per millilitre (w/v) on the bottle, you will arrive at a figure of 150 ml of the liquid for a 600 kilogram horse. That is 2.5 millilitres per 10kg of bodyweight, just what it says on the label.
The "strength" of a horse wormer is irrelevant. The dose in a syringe of Eqvalan is nowhere near 150 millilitres (more like 5ml or less), so of course it has to be stronger. The volume is irrelevant as long as your horse will eat it in one shot. The only thing that matters is the total amount of drug delivered.
The tapeworm question is irrelevant. No ivermectin only wormer, and there are several on the market, worms for tape. The question is only whether Oramec will do the same job as each of those ivermectin wormers and the answer to that is yes.
Regarding vets "letting anybody have it" you will find Oramec on sale over the counter at any agricultural merchant. No need to go anywhere near a vet.
Last edited:
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
You can't go into any country stores and buy it unless you lie about what animals you are using it on. All sqp have a duty off care and to keep their license to sell such produced. Questions, weights off animals etc will be asked. If you mention horse at any time you will be refused the sale.
Cahill
Well-Known Member
mention `horse` in the chemist,if you need to buy hydro-peroxide or benzol benzite and they wont serve you either.
really interesting to read all of your opinions.
the internet is a great tool ,off topic, but this week i was able to mend my phone socket for £4 by googleing it and then ebay(and it came the next day) and guess what?....BT wanted £99 call-out and £30 for the part.
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
WOW mad ain't it, same everywhere, Shop around and half the time it pays off. Recently I saw a amigo turn out rug for £120. Back at home the same rug same colour at our local shop was £67. Wasn't on offer either.
I know when it comes to horses companies chuck the price up which isn't on, and for some stuff I will take my chance but for a product which isn't tried and tested on horses leaves me a little worried, would rather use the proper stuff so if anything did happen you have come back instead off useing a product which isn't licensed to use on horses. Each to their own but I'm not going there.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
They don't even ask. No lies necessary. You have a strange idea of how shops sell worming products, do you buy them? They just hand them over like sweeties. For goodness sake you can buy them mail order, how much care do you think goes into those sales? If may be the law but it ain't happening!
3DE
Well-Known Member
Oramec is ivermectin, the same as Eqvalan. The doses are different but it is easy enough to work out how much you need per kilo. I mixed mine in feed and added treacle to make it palatable. It's great having sheep 
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
I use Fenbendazole (Panacur) cattle wormer on my dogs,I just adjust the amount to suit the stronger concentration.It is a whole lot easier just putting the dose for a "fat lamb" on their suppers than trying to give them 10mls or so of the doggie strength one.It also saves me bundles of money!
D
Donkeymad
Guest
And that from someone who doesn't know it is illegal to import drugs for equines or other.
It is illegal for individuals to import them. Only qulified businesses can import the ones made for the UK market.
Thanks for confirmin westgate
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Doesn't alter the question of how ridiculous it is for it to be illegal to import something which is freely available mail order in this country. It's like saying you can't import an M&S jumper from M&S in France.
Your sarcasm is unwarranted. People learn, and I am thankful to those who have posted helpful remarks on this site correcting the misunderstandings of a human being, who like other human beings is occasionally wrong. The information I was given and repeated was that it is not illegal to buy these drugs. That, I think, is technically correct. It is, clearly we know now, illegal to import. But if someone else breaks the law and imports them, it does not appear to be illegal to buy them, though it is illegal to sell them. Pure technicality, but I don't actually think I posted anything incorrect.
If I have, have you never been wrong in your life donkeymad
?
Your sarcasm is unwarranted. People learn, and I am thankful to those who have posted helpful remarks on this site correcting the misunderstandings of a human being, who like other human beings is occasionally wrong. The information I was given and repeated was that it is not illegal to buy these drugs. That, I think, is technically correct. It is, clearly we know now, illegal to import. But if someone else breaks the law and imports them, it does not appear to be illegal to buy them, though it is illegal to sell them. Pure technicality, but I don't actually think I posted anything incorrect.
If I have, have you never been wrong in your life donkeymad
?
Last edited:
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
I work in a country shop and sells are very tight. Plenty off people get turned down if they come and say it's for the wrong animal. Because should anything happen it comes down to the sqp that has sold the product and their licence at risk. Questions should be asked in ALL shops it's not just a case off handing it over, if that is what some shops are doing when they get caught their licence off that SQP will be taken away and that person fined as well as the shop. Spot checks are done and have been done in our area.
The only way you can get it for a un licenced animal is a prescription from the vet which you can hand over or LIE if the shop does their job properly.
Alpacas is a common one as there is no licenced wormer for them so everybody gets a prescription to buy wormers, with out one they get turned down
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I completely agree, thatsmy girl. The law is that what happens in your shop should happen everywhere. It doesn't.
The reason it doesn't is because the law, in this respect, is an ass. Cat and dog wormers are freely sold in supermarkets. This mystique over horse wormers is now a nonsense. There may have been sense in it in the past, but there is none now. Worming is a simple business, with safe chemicals, with masses of advice as to how to use them available online, in magazines and basic horsecare books.
It may be illegal to import an ivermectin wormer from Australia at 1/3 the price sold in the UK, but it's about as risky as buying a pair of their Ugg boots. The chemical is the same. It's been tested on horses, it's for horses. There is no issue of non-compatible drugs or of contaminating the UK with a currently unused (and possible "reserved") drug. All this law serves to do is to make the poor old British wormer buyer the butt of overcharging by the drug companies. If people choose to get around that by failing to mention when asking for sheep Oramec or cattle moxidectin that they intend to give it to horses, who can really blame them?
I am, as I suspect you are not, old enough to remember the days when horse wormers were available legally only from vets. The result was fields full of wormy horses and ponies because people would not pay vet fees just to get wormers. Dying of redworm infestation or colic induced by worm burden was a common occurrence in the seventies. The sales of wormers was derestricted, I think, to cure this unacceptable horse welfare issue and it has succeeded totally. The current law which makes it illegal to import drugs which are already in common and practically unrestricted use in the UK on the spurious basis that the product was not made for the UK market (even if it was made by the same company in the same factory!!) is patently ridiculous.
The reason it doesn't is because the law, in this respect, is an ass. Cat and dog wormers are freely sold in supermarkets. This mystique over horse wormers is now a nonsense. There may have been sense in it in the past, but there is none now. Worming is a simple business, with safe chemicals, with masses of advice as to how to use them available online, in magazines and basic horsecare books.
It may be illegal to import an ivermectin wormer from Australia at 1/3 the price sold in the UK, but it's about as risky as buying a pair of their Ugg boots. The chemical is the same. It's been tested on horses, it's for horses. There is no issue of non-compatible drugs or of contaminating the UK with a currently unused (and possible "reserved") drug. All this law serves to do is to make the poor old British wormer buyer the butt of overcharging by the drug companies. If people choose to get around that by failing to mention when asking for sheep Oramec or cattle moxidectin that they intend to give it to horses, who can really blame them?
I am, as I suspect you are not, old enough to remember the days when horse wormers were available legally only from vets. The result was fields full of wormy horses and ponies because people would not pay vet fees just to get wormers. Dying of redworm infestation or colic induced by worm burden was a common occurrence in the seventies. The sales of wormers was derestricted, I think, to cure this unacceptable horse welfare issue and it has succeeded totally. The current law which makes it illegal to import drugs which are already in common and practically unrestricted use in the UK on the spurious basis that the product was not made for the UK market (even if it was made by the same company in the same factory!!) is patently ridiculous.
Last edited:
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
No not quite that old |o|
to be fair the dog cat wormers you can get from supermarkets are sub standard, not licenced produces such as drontal etc. Chemists can now sell frontline as they have the licence to do so
to be fair the dog cat wormers you can get from supermarkets are sub standard, not licenced produces such as drontal etc. Chemists can now sell frontline as they have the licence to do so
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Completely agree!It took me only a little while to realize what a rip off our daft rules are! Complete 8way dog vaccine ..£8.00..making it just £16.00 to fully vax a puppy..vets charges here £50.00. In the States pet owners are freely allowed to buy such ,either mail order or at their local equivalent Petsmart. My Fenbendazole comes in a big litre shoulder pack thingy,using an appropriate dosage my dogs are properly done ..the three day course..every four months..that pack will well out last it`s use by date,and cost under £200.00.Worming the "vet`s way" would be a case of bankrupting for lack of common sense.Have`nt tried the stuff on the horses yet,but if I do ..well give them the steer weight dose .
qwertyuiop
Well-Known Member
According to my vet, a certain well known equine wormer used to be used exclusively on sheep. Sheep started getting resistant, so they remarketed it for horses.
vicijp
Well-Known Member
Find it hard to fathom why people are arguing the toss about Panacur/fenbendazole (USELESS/its not news the sheep wormer is suitable for horses - the doses are on the back.) and Ivermectin (used once a year per horse/cheap enough to buy the horse version unless you are swayed by brand names or buying for 50+ horses).
I opened this expecting to find an argument about Nilzan Gold, I was disapointed.
I opened this expecting to find an argument about Nilzan Gold, I was disapointed.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Where on EARTH are you getting your worming information from? You need to go to thatsmygirls shop and talk to her!! Ivermectin and Panacur intervals are every EIGHT WEEKS, unless you worm egg count to prove that your horse is carrying a burden of 300 or less.
By the way guys, there has been a problem with resistance to the drug in Panacur in the North West for at least fifteen years, and you should worm egg count if you are continuing to use it for horses. I understand that there is a growing problem with Ivermectin too, but I haven't seen that documented, does anyone know any more about what regions that is in?
Last edited:
sprytzer
Well-Known Member
For years i used to use louse powder on the horses, it was all i knew until my vet told me I could use Ryposect(sp?) that i used on the cattle, it was just that it was'nt licenced for horses.From then on that was all i used, the dosage measure out by vet and syringed from ears to tail on a dry back, job done, one dose only needed and lice turning their toes up pronto.
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
And other species as well,one drop on the back of a chook`s head..lice/fleas and stuff all gone.
3DE
Well-Known Member
Then there's spot on for sheep/cattle that works brilliantly for keeping the flies off the horses - and it lasts for 4-6 weeks!