Sheep worrying

Polonaise said:
Whilst I have stated that I agree with a farmers right to shoot a dog harming their livestock I would hope it would be a last resort taken after attempting to call or catch the dog (unless it is very obviously aggressive). I have been with a farmer when he found a large bull terrier type dog hanging from the neck of his heifer, I suggested a gun but he managed to remove the dog easily and chain it up. It was ultimately PTS but in a more controlled environment and the owner given chance to say farewells. Shooting a loose Labrador that isn't actually chasing seems a little extreme even it the sheep are upset.
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the dog that chased the kids pony through 2 fences and into an 18ft deep lake was not aggressive, it happened in less than a minute, why should people wait till it has been seen to go wrong? sheep can abort in seconds
 
[QUOTE=Polonaise; Shooting a loose Labrador that isn't actually chasing seems a little extreme even it the sheep are upset"

Actually if you read my post he had the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. I'm sorry, if a dog was attacking/chasing my sheep I would not be wasting my time trying to catch it. I would be wanting to protect my stock and my living. If my sheep are 'upset' they have been worried by the dog. Upset sheep run, just like the 116 did that ran into a corner and died wedged between a fence, gate and a dog.
 
If sheep are upset, the dog owner has failed in their responsibility. There is no excuse, dog needs to be on a short lead, and ideally distracted with toy or food so that it is not staring at the sheep or lunging or barking at them. Walk through quietly, give the sheep as much space as possible, and distract the dog. Dogs should only be off lead if they are 110% reliable in their heel work and can walk 'close' whenever commanded, and are not staring at the sheep imagining the fun that could be had! I am dreading Easter ... we have a footpath through our fields and I know dogs will be off and running around around upsetting the sheep even though they are not technically 'chasing'. A few years back I found one of my ewes had tried to jump a fence and was tangled hanging upside down with her leg twisted through the top strand of wire ... although I can't prove it I am sure she was chased as she had been in the field for years without every attempting to jump out!
 
Polonaise said:
Whilst I have stated that I agree with a farmers right to shoot a dog harming their livestock I would hope it would be a last resort taken after attempting to call or catch the dog (unless it is very obviously aggressive).
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some farmers might, some won't and atm sheep worrying is a real problem and high profile. The 116 ewes killed a few weeks back were not bitten at all, 'just' herded into a fence and crushed-probably by a 'playful' dog. Dogs on the chase are notoriously difficult to catch (hence the problem in the first place) and much damage can be done in a short space of time. '
 
I will upset a few here but it has to be said.
The one thing that annoys me most is owners not taking responsibility for their own dogs.
If your dogs have ever chased sheep let alone killed a few as alliwantforchristmas has stated, then that dog should be put down. Absolutely no excuse not to do the right thing. You're playing with someone's livelihood it's totally unfair just because you can't stand up to the reality of the fact that your dog is a sheep worrier whether that is by accident (as in escaped) or lack of control on your part and treating sheep as not such a big deal; would you say the same if it had attacked a child or would you still be blinkered that you could get it right?
 
What gets me is a dog can just wander into a field of horses but with sheepsome effort has tobe put into the dog getting in with them, my last lurchers prey drive was very high, 3 of her litter mates were shot for sheep chasing all with different experienced lurchermen over the UK, I walk miles and miles and miles, new places every day and my lurcher would have loved to chase sheep so when ever I went into a new field the dog went on the lead till I was as sure as I could be that there were no livestock, he prey drive with sheep never escalated as it was never reinforced by the chase itself so she would walk through fields of livestock and ignore them-this meant I always had to do my best not to spook livestock and make them run or her interest would be sparked. I had her just under 8yrs and never did she chase farm livestock.
My new dog does not have the same drive but bouncing sheep would be something to play with so she gets the same treatment-if a dog runs of far enough to get into sheep without and owner present then something needs to change with regards to how the dog is kept-it should never happen.
OP if you don't have a reliable recal the dog should be on lead anyway.
 
Maesfen said:
I will upset a few here but it has to be said.
The one thing that annoys me most is owners not taking responsibility for their own dogs.
If your dogs have ever chased sheep let alone killed a few as alliwantforchristmas has stated, then that dog should be put down. Absolutely no excuse not to do the right thing. You're playing with someone's livelihood it's totally unfair just because you can't stand up to the reality of the fact that your dog is a sheep worrier whether that is by accident (as in escaped) or lack of control on your part and treating sheep as not such a big deal; would you say the same if it had attacked a child or would you still be blinkered that you could get it right?
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I disagree completely that dogs should be put down out of hand (only responding because I was mentioned). Dogs can be fixed, controlled, or rehomed to a town environment and walked in a park. However, I agree that owners with out of control dogs are incredibly annoying, and can totally see the farmers' side, living where I do, and having my own flock. What I think should happen is that if anyone's dog is caught worrying (not necessarily chasing even) there should be a hefty fine and follow through to see that that owner either has had the dog trained, or rehomed it or kept it secure. The fault lies firmly with the owner, not the dog - although of course if a farmer sees a dog worrying sheep he is perfectly entitled to shoot it, and I don't disagree with that one bit. The same should apply to dogs who are loose and chase after horses ... one of the worst riding accidents I had was when my horse was chased by two loose dogs, and he was never the same to hack after that. It ruined him and no matter how much training I did his confidence was gone and he went from being a fab hack to dangerous.

There is also a tendancy for owners to get breeds that are completely out of their experience and remit, and have nothing like the work that they were bred for to do. Highly energetic, high drive dogs are kept bored, under-stimulated and under-trained - many of these dogs were never intended to be 'pets'. I think that's a big part of the problem, and educating the public about what dogs were bred for, and what they actually need, is really necessary.
 
I think the trouble is the average country dwelling townie doesn't really see a huge issue with their dog having fun in a sheep field. It isn't just the farmers livelihood - and they are making nothing as it is - but they don't actually like seeing their sheep hurt, scared and possibly killed. Imagine if a great big dog was chasing and attacking your smaller dog, in your garden, most people would deem that unacceptable but what is the difference? One being a pet and one an asset doesn't make the cruelty any less.

I totally agree with AIWFC that too many people have untrained working type dogs.
 
Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 anyone in control of a dog when it worries livestock on agricultural land is guilty of a criminal offence. Just by causing the sheep to react you are doing harm, sheep can easily suffocate each other if panicked into the corner of a field.

All dogs need training and not just after something has happened. Right from the start, get that recall in place. I have a young bitch here, returned to the breeder because she bit someone. She can clear a six foot fence easily. Do I wait for that to happen? She's sharp and trainable, we saw a bunch of joggers the other day and she came to heel without being asked. Timing and a bit of common sense are all that's needed.
 
I always love these posts where people have dogs with perfect recall, when the vast majority of dogs I see out and about have anything but! I'm not saying that its ideal, but dogs with perfect recall really are in the minority. Great if you get a young dog you can train. Its vastly different getting an older rescue dog.

I love taking mine to to the beach (not been for a while) especially if its a cold day and there's no kids playing with footballs, another nemesis to my dog - whoops, it popped mum! I don't think there's any way I can desensitise him to that, we just have to play football at home with horse toys, which are indestructable :D
 
stencilface said:
I always love these posts where people have dogs with perfect recall, when the vast majority of dogs I see out and about have anything but! I'm not saying that its ideal, but dogs with perfect recall really are in the minority. Great if you get a young dog you can train. Its vastly different getting an older rescue dog.

I love taking mine to to the beach (not been for a while) especially if its a cold day and there's no kids playing with footballs, another nemesis to my dog - whoops, it popped mum! I don't think there's any way I can desensitise him to that, we just have to play football at home with horse toys, which are indestructable :D
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If that was to me; when recall isn't 100% that's where the timing comes in.
 
Firstly I have sheep and I have dogs, they are not sheep dogs and I would not trust them with other peoples sheep at all although they never go anywhere near ours as we have a ram so they keep a wide berth.
I think people can not understand sheep are not just anonymous animal to most sheep keepers, they are just as distinctive to them as dogs. The big commercial flocks are just that, there is little profit in farming as it is, you only have to loose a few not to break even, and all the hard work is wasted. So when someone says,' the dog was just playing', to you its playing to the sheep its a threat, and sheep are easily stressed and when they stress they tend to die.
Please have a look at this tread as it really explains the problems that sheep owners have, they do not want to shoot dogs but what would you do?
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=72953.0;topicseen
I feel for you OP, I have a s**t of a lurcher that chases hares given the chance, so he has to be walked on the lead and we have a stock fenced garden with a strand of electric on the top.
 
All dogs, regardless of how good their recall is should be on a lead around sheep. The law needs changing from 'under close control' to 'on a lead'. Too many people think their dogs are under close control until they get in a field of prey animals.
Is it really too much to ask whilst walking in fields around sheep to put a dog on a lead and potentially save a lot of heartache, stress and expense not only to the farmer but to the dog owner if the farmer acts within his rights.
 
I need to fence my garden. It currently has a poor post and netting fence, just with the netting which doesn't go to the ground in some places. It has a thick hedge that was laid last year along half of it, and a still growing hedge along the other bit. The guy renting the land behind my house (previously had horse on) it is planning on putting sheep in it.

I have found some cleft paling rolls that I think might be good? It seems silly to have to build a whole new fence (which would be tricky given the proximity of the hedge to the fence) and I thought these would be strong enough, they are billed as stock proof. Then we could attach to the current fence behind the hedge and maybe just bang in a couple more posts for security? You can get it in 5ft and above which would be enough to keep my dog in.
http://tate-fencing.co.uk/product/cleft-chestnut-paling/
 
stencilface said:
I always love these posts where people have dogs with perfect recall, when the vast majority of dogs I see out and about have anything but! I'm not saying that its ideal, but dogs with perfect recall really are in the minority. Great if you get a young dog you can train. Its vastly different getting an older rescue dog.

I love taking mine to to the beach (not been for a while) especially if its a cold day and there's no kids playing with footballs, another nemesis to my dog - whoops, it popped mum! I don't think there's any way I can desensitise him to that, we just have to play football at home with horse toys, which are indestructable :D
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Thanks :) Loving the number of people implying I was walking the dog through a field of sheep with no lead on and don't care that it chased the sheep or that if any damage was done I would not financially compensate the owner (obviously cannot compensate for the emotional trauma). Read the post and clarification before judging. Slightly annoyingly the land owner the other side spent the day after the dog incident clearing trees and the sheep where clearly agitated by the machinery and noise, obviously if any abort I will have to pay as my dog trespassed but might not be entirely to blame.

As for shooting dogs before they've actually done anything just because they are loose near sheep, I'll remember that next time I come across escaped sheep on a bridleway and my horse spooks....actually I won't, I'll attempt to get the sheep back in the field or contact the owner, after regaining control of my horse even if it is inconvenient or involves some risk to myself or my horse. Everyone makes mistakes, not all dog owners are the same and dogs are not black or white, the majority fall somewhere between dedicated killers and perfectly trained, never put a foot wrong pooches whatever some of the posters on here seem to think.
 
Polonaise said:
Thanks :) Loving the number of people implying I was walking the dog through a field of sheep with no lead on and don't care that it chased the sheep or that if any damage was done I would not financially compensate the owner (obviously cannot compensate for the emotional trauma). Read the post and clarification before judging. Slightly annoyingly the land owner the other side spent the day after the dog incident clearing trees and the sheep where clearly agitated by the machinery and noise, obviously if any abort I will have to pay as my dog trespassed but might not be entirely to blame.

As for shooting dogs before they've actually done anything just because they are loose near sheep, I'll remember that next time I come across escaped sheep on a bridleway and my horse spooks....actually I won't, I'll attempt to get the sheep back in the field or contact the owner, after regaining control of my horse even if it is inconvenient or involves some risk to myself or my horse. Everyone makes mistakes, not all dog owners are the same and dogs are not black or white, the majority fall somewhere between dedicated killers and perfectly trained, never put a foot wrong pooches whatever some of the posters on here seem to think.
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Unfortunately its not just the dog but the diseases they carry that can abort sheep, or make the meat inedible.

http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/dog-owners/
 
Ok, to clarify:
If a dog is in my field with my sheep I would be prepared to shoot it IF it was 'worrying or chasing' my livelihood. But, since I don't carry a gun in the pick up I would have to get home to get the gun. This could mean I would get back to the field and the dog has gone or it could be chewing the face of a ewe.
Not all dog owners are the same, many are good as gold but there are also those who cannot see that their pet is capable of doing huge amounts of damage.
A farmer chainsawing etc is not going to stress the sheep as much as a dog worrying or chasing them
If our sheep get out, that is our fault. We have Public liability insurance if they were to cause an accident. If they were to be attacked by a dog whilst escaped then we would have to take that on the nose too.
My JRT goes around the field licking the noses of the sheep, they have known her from birth and the ewes tolerate her around the lambing pens. Her behaviour would stress out an unfamiliar flock, worrying them. A farmer, if she was off the lead would be within his rights to shoot her. But then, she wouldn't be off the lead.
 
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Fellewell said:
"LEAVE!!" ; It's the first word I teach. Can take a while though ;-)
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:D :D :D

Please come and teach my dog this, its infuriating trying to play with him. And good luck with that one (although I am considering the leave command with a cheese reward, now that would make him drop the ball ;) )
 
Fellewell said:
Yes and that's where the 'common sense' bit comes in but I like that you're deconstructing my post.
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HI fellewell. ...,
Where I live scenes like this...


are an everyday occurrence...you turn a corner and there are a hundred sheep ...no fences..they are brought down from the mountains and there are three large ,very capable dogs with them...if your dog is not on lead it will be savaged or shot by the shepherd...

So yes,dogs ought to be on lead around sheep in my locale...
As for " deconstructing " I leave that to the master chef programs on tv...my dogs are very well trained,but when in an at risk situation, I don't take risks...on the lead they go.
 
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Bellasophia said:
As for " deconstructing " I leave that to the master chef profs on tv...my dogs are very well trained,but when in an at risk situation, I don't take risks...on the lead they go
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This is it really, I like going places where the risks are close to 0 - lets just say there's always a chance for a ruddy sheep to be there, even on the beach/urban park! - but if I'm not, he's on the lead.
 
Absolutely! It's common sense...so what is fellewell harping on about...deconstructing posts? it sounds like a wannabe trainer trying to teach the grannies to suck eggs IMO.
 
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