Shivering weight off

Birker2020

Birker2020

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I hear the term used quite a lot in the context of rugging horses stabled overnight and wondered if this is a coomon thing to do, i.e. leave a lighter rug on your horse/no rug at all in order to 'shiver weight off' if the horse is over weight.
I'd hate to do that to my horse and always try and rug appropriately according to the temperature and decrease the feed/grass and increase exercise and wet hay instead. I think that I wouldn't like to us being without a duvet at night to 'shiver our weight off' although I know horses already have a fur coat lol! I'm not criticising those that do but is there really any proven scientific reason why leaving horses in a lighter rug than conditions allow would make them lose weight, surely they don't actually get cold enough to lose weight??

It went down to around 7c the other night for about an hour and I'd left a thin fleece on mine as it was about 15c when I left. I was told by staff the next day she had been cold that morning so I couldn't image putting anything less on or not putting anything on at all. She is old and thin skinned.

Surely its the hind gut that controls the body temperature and the fermentation of the forage it eats produces warmth?
 
I certainly wouldn't go as far as shivering weight off, but I do keep rugging to a minimum on my fatty. I want her body to have to work a bit to generate heat, not be wrapped up and snuggly warm. This last winter she had a very low trace clip (she is retired) and only wore a fleece overnight when it went below freezing. I never found her shivering and she never even looked like she felt the cold.
The only time I've ever seen her shiver is years ago when I turned her out in a no-neck rug and it rained and was a cool wind (her neck was clipped).
 
If you consider wild horses, they gain weight in the summer and lose it in the winter. Of course this is partly to do with grass available, but also energy reserves used to keep warm. Two of my natives are unrugged all year and they certainly seem more hungry when it’s cold and wet.

I personally wouldn’t let any horse shiver. I don’t rug my two because I know I tend to over feed them in the winter and rugging them would mean they wouldn’t need to use that extra feed to keep warm, so they’d get fat. If I ever saw them shiver I would put a rug on instantly but as long as they have plenty to eat, they are much happier. They have lovely coats and it’s fascinating to see it work how nature intended. Of course if they were in work and clipped their coat wouldn’t be able to do that, so I’d rug accordingly. I rug my oldies as they need all their feed to maintain their weight and do feel the cold. Not rugging them would cost me a small fortune in feed and they’d be miserable.
 
It’s really about knowing your horse .
I don’t like mine cold I think it unsettles them and I don’t like anything that unsettles the yard.
However I do use the cold at times to aid weight control.
For instance Fatty had no rug at all over the winter .
My grey Harvey who is a very good doer has had to have a shoeing break and I removed his rug early to slow his weight gain .
I am injured atm ( broke hip had replacement 2 weeks ago ) and we had a very cold few days normally I would put light rugs on the horses in work but we left them without to slow their weight gain .
It probaly does their metabolism good to fire up to keep warm .
But I would not let an oldie be miserable .
 
Obviously leaving a horse to shiver is inappropriate. But as others have said horses generate their own natural warmth from fermentation in the colon. Allowing them to do what their bodies were designed to do is not wrong. Over rugging (and I am not saying you do OP but it does happen) has been described as a cruelty epidemic in horse owners. I would rather one of mine got a bit chilly than was overheated wrapped in something they were unable to take off. But a bit chilly is not shivering.
 
I think the term ‘shiver some weight off’ is used a bit flippantly ... I actually say it quite a lot. But I wouldn’t leave a horse literally a shivering wreck!
If I say it I generally mean I would use cold weather to my advantage to help remove excess weight.

There is a quite disturbing trend for over rugging. People think they are doing it out of love for their horses, but when you see obese animals in quilted rugs in mild temperatures it’s heartbreaking. Old/slim horses excluded!!
 
I would rather mine be a bit chilly than boiling hot they mainly live out so then can move about if need be, they have been having 100g turnouts on the last few nights, I think so many people over rug these days I often see horses out round here in turnouts on a sunny day when it's double figures, probably because they feel it's too cold to whip the rug off in the morning so the poor things boil on them all day, doesn't make sense to me it soon warms up.
 
I'm also definitely on the "better a bit chilly than too warm" side of the fence and I do like mine to use some of the calories he gobbles to keep warm. However, I have never known him be really cold, just slightly more hungry than usual.

But as others have said throughout this thread, it depends on the individual horse. Mine is a cob-type "good doer" and, while not excessively fat, has come through winter a bit too well for my liking. He wears a rain sheet to keep him dry and clean enough to ride in the limited time I have available. His fieldmate, on the other hand, is nearly 26 and drops weight far too easily so we tend to mollycoddle him a bit more!

ETA - I have probably said that he can "shiver the weight off" on occasions, although I have never actually known him to shiver.
 
It really boils (no pun intended!) down to horses' thermoneutral zones - the temperature range within which they expend no energy at all keeping their bodies warm.
For most horses it's between 5 and 25 degrees. Below that, they will need to burn extra calories to maintain their body temperature and above 25 degrees they need to dilate their veins, sweat or pant to cool down but it's far harder for a horse to cool itself than warm itself up.
I think the lower critical temperature for a clipped horse was only 6 degrees.

Obviously wind-chill, elderly, very young or sick horses need extra care, but as long as a steady trickle of fibre is taken into the caecum, the heat it produces through fermentation of fibre provides the horse with a very efficient internal combustion engine.

I agree with ihw - it's a phrase often used a bit flippantly and I don't know anyone who'd literally shiver weight off a horse, but keeping it just below its lower critical temperature with plenty of forage means it will lose weight steadily whilst maintaining optimum gut function.
 
i hate being cold, so check all the time how they feel, i owe it to them to make sure they are warm enough at all times, am a firm believer that cold is very, very bad for the health
 
tristar said:
i hate being cold, so check all the time how they feel, i owe it to them to make sure they are warm enough at all times, am a firm believer that cold is very, very bad for the health
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Presumably you live on site? With the best will in the world you can’t always allow for sudden changes in our British weather if you can’t be with your horse 24/7. My Un- clipped horses rarely get cold because they have plenty of forage. There have been the odd occasions where they have, when it’s raining and it’s very cold and I’ve then put a rug on. They do have access to stables 24/7 so there’s really no need for them to get so wet if they don’t want to 🙄
 
I hate being cold i hate my old horse getting cold so they are rugged accordingly however they only seem to get shivery cold when they have summer coats and it is wet and windy
 
I've always followed the belief that it's easier for a horse to warm itself up than to cool itself down, therefore I'd 100% rather under-rug than over-rug. I think there are a lot of people who base how to rug their horse on how cold/warm they feel, which is a bit irrelevant because horses don't feel the cold the same way we do. My horse grew a winter coat and only had a lightweight rug on all winter, mostly to keep him clean, and he was fine. He either had a fleece or no rug at all when stabled overnight. It was also useful for keeping his weight down because he wasn't in proper work, but even so he's come out of winter a bit too well for my liking.

Equine obesity is at an epidemic level because of over feeding and over rugging. Obviously there are the exceptions such as very young stock, older horses and poorly horses, or horses with thin skin etc, but the majority of horses are a lot hardier than we give them credit for and by mollycoddling them as much as we do we're actually creating a welfare issue.
 
Leo Walker said:
Its actually the opposite.
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rheumatism,arthritis,, tense muscles, colic, and sheer misery are a few reasons i hate cold and wet for animals, warm dry housing, adequate food, suitable rugging if needed.

and anyway it depends a lot on the type of horses and individual horse, and with todays technical fabrics and well cut rugs it seems no big deal to me.

if i had any animal shivering i would consider i had failed them frankly, and anyway i was talking about what i do with our horses
 
I too use this phrase of shivering weight off but I don't truly believe that that's what happens. I don't rug my unclipped porker over winter under any circumstances with the intention that if she gets cold she will move around more to warm up (exercise), granted they will most likely eat more when cold too but this energy goes into keeping the body warm and so less gets stored as fat. It seems to work well for her. I don't mind if she shivers a bit anyway, she's young and healthy and will warm up eventually. Horses aren't as green as they are cabbage looking they know how to warm themselves up. Shivering is a natural and effective response to warm the body much like with us, I don't personally see how it does harm if they have adlib forage available and space to roam. Our young horses live a fairly natural lifestyle, out 24/7 in winter over almost 100 acres and my thinking is ... I'm not sure who goes around putting rugs on wild horses but they seem to survive OK. Rather have a cold lean horse at the end of winter than a fat laminitic one in the Spring.
 
tristar said:
rheumatism,arthritis,, tense muscles, colic, and sheer misery are a few reasons i hate cold and wet for animals, warm dry housing, adequate food, suitable rugging if needed.

and anyway it depends a lot on the type of horses and individual horse, and with todays technical fabrics and well cut rugs it seems no big deal to me.

if i had any animal shivering i would consider i had failed them frankly, and anyway i was talking about what i do with our horses
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I think any horse that is left to be cold, shivering and tucked up is a miserable one, but I don't think anyone here is advocating that. It's a judgement based on the horse, it's accessibility to shelter from hedges and dips the the pasture and availability of forage. Horses are outdoor animals, they haven't evolved to sit by the fire yet.
Over rugging is a big problem in horse welfare. Even the most technically advanced rug cannot make a hot horse cool. I wear some very technical outdoor jackets for hiking, but have yet to find one that I don't need to take off on a warm day. Hot horses can't do that.
 
Horses for courses. My ponies are out naked and have been most of winter (rugged at times to keep the mud off, as they're in work). My QH mare is in a 50gsm because she's got her summer coat which is almost non-existent compared to the ponies and is generally more in need of something extra in this weather. They're out on some grass with ad lib hay 24/7 - the ponies definitely don't need anything more to keep warm!

I'd also rather they were too cool than too hot - but wouldn't leave horse shivering or tucked up.
 
I've never let any horse of mine get to the stage where it was literally tucked up and shivering, but I do use the cold weather to encourage them to utilise their own fat supplies. I tend to find dry cold isn't a problem, but wet and windy - even at higher temperatures - can cause them to get pretty chilly.

When I was on livery at the riding school I encouraged the kids to give haynets when they brought the ponies in wet and cold, rather than put a rug on. It was a really good display of the hindgut doing its job because within quite a short space of time the ponies would be warm and steaming.
 
ihatework said:
I think the term ‘shiver some weight off’ is used a bit flippantly ... I actually say it quite a lot. But I wouldn’t leave a horse literally a shivering wreck!
If I say it I generally mean I would use cold weather to my advantage to help remove excess weight.

There is a quite disturbing trend for over rugging. People think they are doing it out of love for their horses, but when you see obese animals in quilted rugs in mild temperatures it’s heartbreaking. Old/slim horses excluded!!
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I use the term quiet a lot as well. Horses have a much wider thermo range than us which i dont think a lot of people know or appreciate. My horses are out 24/7 and whilst on holiday last week the temps went down to 1-2 degrees and i was asked if i wanted them rugged ... erm no .. they have grass and can move around to stay warm or go in an open stable .. and its May!!! Over rugging is more of a welfare issue than under rugging or not rugging at all!
 
dogatemysalad said:
I think any horse that is left to be cold, shivering and tucked up is a miserable one, but I don't think anyone here is advocating that. It's a judgement based on the horse, it's accessibility to shelter from hedges and dips the the pasture and availability of forage. Horses are outdoor animals, they haven't evolved to sit by the fire yet.
Over rugging is a big problem in horse welfare. Even the most technically advanced rug cannot make a hot horse cool. I wear some very technical outdoor jackets for hiking, but have yet to find one that I don't need to take off on a warm day. Hot horses can't do that.
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i was talking about what i do, and our horses, everyone else can do as they wish , and i do not need a lecture thank you

of course it so obvious `horse live outdoors`` and accessibility to shelter is a consideration, etc, that is blindingly obvious, i don`t know why you said it?

its over feeding that is the biggest welfare problem, closely followed by lack of hard work

and if you get hot walking and need to take off your jacket, which again is obviously going to happen, how does that compare to a horses standing still? we are not riding the horse in a rug, are we? or maybe in the mad world we are he he he!!!!!!

and who is going to put a rug on a hot horse to make it cool? even if it is techno, where did that one come from?
 
There have been a number of articles recently on the welfare issues of over-rugging. Over-feeding is an associated welfare issue, but they do somewhat act in tandem.

Horses in fields do tend to move about in their rugs, which is, I rather think, dogatemysalad's point. Unless you glue their feet to the floor when they're out, which is rather Roald Dahl imagery...
 
Goldenstar said:
It’s really about knowing your horse .
I don’t like mine cold I think it unsettles them and I don’t like anything that unsettles the yard.
However I do use the cold at times to aid weight control.
For instance Fatty had no rug at all over the winter .
My grey Harvey who is a very good doer has had to have a shoeing break and I removed his rug early to slow his weight gain .
I am injured atm ( broke hip had replacement 2 weeks ago ) and we had a very cold few days normally I would put light rugs on the horses in work but we left them without to slow their weight gain .
It probaly does their metabolism good to fire up to keep warm .
But I would not let an oldie be miserable .
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Sorry to hear that, I hope your recovery goes smoothly fwiw much better to have a hip replacement than a pinned repair as I am told it heals more quickly with a better result.
 
I use under rugging for myself and for horses. I do let myself shiver, I wouldn't want to see the horse shiver. It's a really good way to lose weight without reducing the feed.

In humans, it leads to the production of brown fat cells the at help you keep weight off. I don me know if horses have any brown fat.

GS I hope you're back on your feet and sound soon.
 
ycbm said:
I use under rugging for myself and for horses. I do let myself shiver, I wouldn't want to see the horse shiver. It's a really good way to lose weight without reducing the feed.

In humans, it leads to the production of brown fat cells the at help you keep weight off. I don me know if horses have any brown fat.

GS I hope you're back on your feet and sound soon.
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While they have the genes capable of having brown fat and producing the protein needed to generate heat from it, generally large mammals like horses rely less on this kind of heat generation, favouring gut-generated heat the most. It's all to do with size to surface area ratio, rodents rely on it the most because of this.
 
I'm another that leaves fat horses to "shiver off weight". All of ours are fed adlib hay, have shelter and because no one has interfered with coat production by rugging/overrugging they grow adequate coat. A large majority appear to have forgotten/never known that horses are supposed to drop weight over winter and there are now studies that by not allowing this to happen is affecting their metabolic system.

The fat cob only had a rainsheet on when it was two types of weather and one of those types was rain, e.g. rain and wind, rain and cold, and even then it had to be extreme. The rest of the time he's been naked and full of hay.

There are so many fat horses out there who haven't dropped a kg over winter because they've been kept wrapped up and fed; with both increasing when it's been bad weather. This obesity crisis is epidemic and people seem blind to their own horse's body condition.

The amount of horses I drive past who are wearing the same rugs at 12 degrees C+ as they were wearing at <0 degrees C is disgusting too. Not sure if that's laziness or ignorance.
 
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