Shock at damage a seat saver has done - Thermal images

[Daytona]

Got my horses back Thermal imaged and his saddle, I use a gel seat cover on my saddle and it has bits of elastic that go round the saddle panels and tuck in under where the flocking goes in.

Ludo has little muscle along his back, he a growing lad who I sometimes trouble with his weight, had this been a fat horse it might not notice but he is very sensitive,

The back showed a area of inflammation that coincides with the straps under his saddle, I do use a saddle cloth.

As you can imagine I cut the straps straight off.

 

[FfionWinnie]

That is interesting because my mare had "some back sensitivity" last chiro appointment and I was worrying about saddle but it was an odd one as she has being tremendously well in new saddle. I have fairly recently got an Acavallo seat saver too.

 

[Daytona]

It's the acavallo one I have too. Reminds me almost like the princess and the pea, absoulute mental how much they can actually feel. And that a bit of elastic can annoying him that much but it's clear as day to see what's its done. I had my Physo and saddler there, it's squeezed the panels, so to be sure they reflocking my saddle too. As they said if he was a chunky or fat backed type horse he might not feel it but he a big gangly warmblood. I cut the straps off but the pad still stays on saddle ok so that's fine.

I'm going to get him rescanned in a couple months to see if its improved at all , and my saddle is being reflock to make sure the panels nice and flat.

My saddle is a newish Black Country jumping saddle incase anyone wondered.

 

[cptrayes]

Could the first picture not indicate just as easily that he has kissing spines or a spinal ligament strain?

 

[stroppymare153]

^^ this...

and the second one looks as though the whole area under the saddle is inflamed. If anything, there are two areas at the back which are a lower temp - less inflamed??

not trying to be controversial - just not how I would have interpreted those pics.

 

[Daytona]

^^ this...

and the second one looks as though the whole area under the saddle is inflamed. If anything, there are two areas at the back which are a lower temp - less inflamed??

not trying to be controversial - just not how I would have interpreted those pics.

The second one is a photo of the underside of the saddle not the horse..?? After its been taken off the horse to see how heat is distributed .

 

[stroppymare153]

ah!! sorry!

clearly an excess of Burghley and cava!!

 

[Daytona]

Could the first picture not indicate just as easily that he has kissing spines or a spinal ligament strain?

The picture could show a possible old injury that's healing they said, it's not white enough to be something like kissing spine, they had to adjust the colour to get it to to show up, can't remember exactly what they said.

So basically it was no its not enough to be a serious issue, more likely a old injury, or the straps on saddle had hurt him or possible a nerve. They want to sort my saddle then re do him in two months with the hope its improved more. Physo was there and was straight in about the area and said no real issue she could feel etc.

It will be interesting to see what the back looks like in two months.

 

[cptrayes]

Fascinating, thanks for showing them.

 

[Daytona]

Fascinating, thanks for showing them.

I thought so too, she showed me lots of other horse pictures and how they determine difo types of Injuries etc. my horse is 6 for 1st year under saddle had issues with him being mounted, bucking etc. got vets, Physos you name it out to check him as I was worried he had something like KS as why was he behaving.

Had I had access to this then I'd of defo got it done but it only just come to NE Scotland, past year he has greatly improved and of late no bother from him but I wondered has he just become tolerant to pain. So as soon as I found this was available in my area I wanted him done, just for my peice of mind. So if in two months it still shows, even if he does still not show any signs of discomfort I will ask my vet to investigate it just incase there is a underlying cause. I guess for now they starting with the most obvious factor causing the inflammation , then work backwards from there.

Either way it's shows you really don't want any type of straps under your saddle as its creating a possible issue, that we try so hard to avoid.

 

[Mike007]

It took me a while to follow what you were getting at,so basicly the seat saver has a strap that crosses from one side to the other about 3/4 of the way back and presumably lays over and pulls against the spines of the back. Is this correct?Surely not? I havnt seen one of these so I am a bit puzzled. The hot area lies within the gullet of the saddle and clearly somthing has been agravating it.I have also found a link to an old thread about fitting these which has added to my confusion http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?496367-Acavallo-Gel-seat-saver-confused

 

[FfionWinnie]

Oh the saddle pic, you can see where the straps are, I think, maybe just because I already know. There is one on either side and they stretch under the panels of the saddle and you shove the ends into the opening at the gullet.

I am pretty sure the seat saver doesn't "need" them so I am going to try not using them and if it doesn't fall off/move, just cut them off. If it does need them, dunno, flog it

There is an additional strap which runs down the middle of the gullet (not touching the horse). Could that be making that area hotter Ludo?

 

[Daytona]

Mike the go as FW explained, round one panel and up into the inside of the saddle if that makes sense, one for each side.

They have pulled the flocking tight potentially almost causing my saddle to slightly bridge off his back, causing pressure at the back in a small area right on his spine.

They cannot be 100% sure that's what has caused it, it's just extremely suspicions as its right at same area , and the straps were ever slightly offset as is the redness on each side so it matches the straps position exactly, so the plan is , straps are now removed, saddle is being totally reflocked to sort the distorted bits caused by the straps and he will be rescanned in November to see if its gone then. So untill then we won't know for sure but either way the straps are causing a change in the weight bearing surface of the saddle which is a bad thing so people if that have one should remove them.

I wish I'd took a pic of them on saddle to show you, I was so horrified I hacked them off immediately lol .

Hope that makes sense if not maybe FW could take a photo of her saddle with the straps on to show you before she hacks hers off lol.

 

[popsdosh]

I too think you are making simple assumptions and would interpret them in a different way ,just because the strap marks show up it does not mean they are a problem just merely different materials absorbing and dissipating heat in different ways( you could say it shows up as hot on horses back as the saddle has clearly not absorbed as much heat in that area) with out carrying out the same excersise with out the straps you wont know for sure .I would place more significance on the fact the panels are clearly unbalanced in some way as the left hand panel shows considerably more red area than the right overall,this could be rider imbalance or the panels not flocked evenly.
I am not sure to of the significance of the first image as the temp gradient is well below the normal body temp for an equine so is bound to be more dramatic than normal,if there was injury I would expect lots of vivid white colours.

 

[Daytona]

I'm not making assumptions lol I've no idea what I'm looking at as I'm not a trained thermal imaging person, I'm only stating what the person who did it said. She is very experienced and not just a person with a camera, she has a degree in preclinical veterinary medicine and this is how she interpreted the images.

I guess she knows more than anyone as she is afterall the expert. I'm oy repeating what I was told to warn others, if folks want to take it on board of not that's up to them.

Apart from the straps she said the saddle fitted well along both panels. It's the pressure change at the back that's causing the issues. Her words not mine.


White would indicate a bone issue, i remeber her saying that, ie like KS etc, she told me, they always lower the temp of the photos, I can't remember why but she did tell me, they have to edit them to get a true reflection. Are you a vet, or doctor.?? If so I guess you will know more about this and the reasons behind it, I can't exactly remember what they said.

 

[popsdosh]

Then surely she should have rescanned without the straps to check out her theory maybe?? To me the scans do show up a saddle imbalance as one side appears to have approx 10% more contact area than the other ,just my interpretation without seeing the horse and saddle so just shows how things can be interpreted in different ways. You are trying to warn people about a product that may or may not be causing a problem due to one thermal image!!! Very scientific.

 

[twiggy2]

can anyone post a picture of the underside of a saddle please showing how the straps go as i really cannot picture it in my head?

 

[Daytona]

What I also remember her saying is the saddle image is NOT a replacement for a well trained saddle fitter, just a wee extra check you can also do. I'm very particular and like my horse checked 3 monthly, saddles, back the works as he is a growing boy. I will continue to get him scanned now on a regular basis as part of his health routine, it's not expensive, £50 for back and saddle

 

[Daytona]

This is not a clear photo but might give you a idea, as you can see on left elastic goes round panel , on the end of the elastic is a plastic clip thing which you push up into the under side of your panel where the flocking is, so the elastic stretches round your panel quite tightly,

There is one for each side.

Hope that helps.

 

[twiggy2]

[QUOTE

This is not a clear photo but might give you a idea, as you can see on left elastic goes round panel , on the end of the elastic is a plastic clip thing which you push up into the under side of your panel where the flocking is, so the elastic stretches round your panel quite tightly,

There is one for each side.

Hope that helps.[/QUOTE]

thats great thanks at least what you are saying makes sense now.

does seem like a crazy design when we all go to such efforts to make sure the saddle is a goo/perfect fit. has anyone asked any saddle fitters what they think of them? do you have your saddle fit checked with them on so the saddle fitter can take them into account/give an opinion?

 

[Goldenstar]

Oh I see what you mean now ,yup that's a bit of a mad way to hold on a seat saver .

 

[Daytona]

Popsdosh

Sorry I think you have miss interpreted me, the seat saver was off my saddle for the scanning, you remove everything , so no saddle cloth etc either, just put the saddle on the horse with its girth.

You can see the damage the straps have done to my flocking, pinching it and also most causing a bridge to happen. My saddle was only fully reflocked 6 months ago as well and I've had saver for not quite as long as that .

As I said I'm no expert, just repeating what I was told. Only medical people with experience in thermal imaging will be able to Interperate these images correctly.

BTW the seat saver stays on fine without the straps but I've also noted on that link Mike posted some actually put the straps under by the girth straps thus not in contact with the horses back which seems a good way, so looks like there are ways round the issue.

 

[Daytona]

You are trying to warn people about a product that may or may not be causing a problem due to one thermal image!!! Very scientific.

So what are you saying I should not of posted these images because I've not untertaken a study of a 100 horses using the saver over a 12 month period to see if there is a effect or not..??

Bit of a rediculas statement no..?? This is a forum, where people share there experiences , which I have done. How people take on board others posts is totally up to them. But I'm sorry you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the straps have had a detrimental effect on my saddle , ever if it is just pinching my flocking tight, it's effected the weight bearing surface of the saddle. To be able to fully Interperate the images ie, the redness, the reduced temp of photos etc I do think you need to be a expert or at least have a good understanding of thermal imaging which I do not, I assume only vets, doctors etc will.

 

[Carefreegirl]

Interesting thread. Never seen a seat saver that fits to the saddle like that but then I don't use seat savers anyway. Just out of interest OP could you re-post the original pictures in your first post as it says they've been removed ?
It's a bit hard to refer back to people's comments about the images as they've gone :smile3:

 

[Daytona]

Oh dear sorry I was cleaning up my photo bucket, did not realise if you remove pics from there is takes them out of thread

Here they are again

 

[Goldenstar]

Why did the technician think there's such clear asymmetry between the two sides?

 

[Daytona]

Why did the technician think there's such clear asymmetry between the two sides?

You have lost me a bit, but what she said was saddle had good equal pressure along the panels etc. she showed me photos of a bridging saddle which was clear to see and a saddle that's too tight , the front was red and the back yellow.

She is not a trained saddle fitter and made it clear this is not to replace a saddler, that's why my saddle fitter was there, it's just to give extra tool to see how pressure is distributed on the panels etc. She is more looking at the horse not the saddle, it's just a quick check type thing.

Anyway I don't think there is much more I can add of value to this thread, I've pasted over the information I was told along with the photos, and what we will do going forward with my horse, how each if you interpritate this is up to you, I was just trying to pass over what I thought was interesting unusual information not get into a debate on if its right or wrong information as I am in not position to comment on that as I'm not a expert on saddle fitting or equine thermal imaging .

 

[ester]

You can't post on a forum and not expect a debate! Thermal imaging is not rocket science anyway so I think most people are quite capable of commenting. I can quite clearly see the one sidedness that golden star is mentioning

 

[MistletoeMegan]

So what are you saying I should not of posted these images because I've not untertaken a study of a 100 horses using the saver over a 12 month period to see if there is a effect or not..??

Bit of a rediculas statement no..?? This is a forum, where people share there experiences , which I have done. How people take on board others posts is totally up to them.

Actually, when you make a statement of 'Shock at damage a seat saver has done' you are stating that this particular make & model of seat saver has damaged your horse. That is not actually what the images are showing, that's the technician's interpretation. The images indicate a problem, I wouldn't state that this is down to the seat saver though - it's a daft design, granted, but there's clear asymmetry in areas one wouldn't expect to be influenced by the positioning of the straps.

 

[TheMule]

Thanks for posting, I think it's a good lesson for people to be careful- tight straps around flocking dont sound like a good idea to me!

I'm yet to be totally convinced by the applications of thermal imaging, and the websites of these companies dont do much to sway my mind! These do appear to show more of one side of your saddle is in contact with the horse than the other, possibly due to you being slightly wonky or the saddle not sitting quite right.

How long after exercise was the back picture taken?