Shock at damage a seat saver has done - Thermal images

[Daytona]

Ok ok I give up every time I post anything people try to turn out into a argument lol, not my bag I'm afraid, so as I've said I've no more value to add to this thread, so I'm going to bow out now.

You lot interprietate it how you wish, you're all clearly thermal imaging experts, humble little me is not and I don't like to assume anything I only speak if I think I know something.

And for what's its worth I was very shocked, so was my saddler and Physo. Hence my title.

 

[*hic*]

Was the horse stood up square? As you point out you're not a technical expert but that's one you can answer and may explain the asymmetry.

 

[Goldenstar]

You have lost me a bit, but what she said was saddle had good equal pressure along the panels etc. she showed me photos of a bridging saddle which was clear to see and a saddle that's too tight , the front was red and the back yellow.

She is not a trained saddle fitter and made it clear this is not to replace a saddler, that's why my saddle fitter was there, it's just to give extra tool to see how pressure is distributed on the panels etc. She is more looking at the horse not the saddle, it's just a quick check type thing.

Anyway I don't think there is much more I can add of value to this thread, I've pasted over the information I was told along with the photos, and what we will do going forward with my horse, how each if you interpritate this is up to you, I was just trying to pass over what I thought was interesting unusual information not get into a debate on if its right or wrong information as I am in not position to comment on that as I'm not a expert on saddle fitting or equine thermal imaging .

To my eye there's a clear difference between the two side of the saddle and I would want to understand why if this was my saddle on my horse.
I assumed ( wrongly it seems ) that you had posted the pictures for discussion .

 

[Goldenstar]

Was the horse stood up square? As you point out you're not a technical expert but that's one you can answer and may explain the asymmetry.

That's a picture of the saddle not the horse , the saddles not on the horse.

 

[ihatework]

Ok ok I give up every time I post anything people try to turn out into a argument lol, not my bag I'm afraid, so as I've said I've no more value to add to this thread, so I'm going to bow out now.

You lot interprietate it how you wish, you're all clearly thermal imaging experts, humble little me is not and I don't like to assume anything I only speak if I think I know something.

And for what's its worth I was very shocked, so was my saddler and Physo. Hence my title.

Oh for Christ sake, stop being drama queen! It's actually a very interesting thread.
Looking at those images 2 things are going on, 1) a strap issue and 2) a potential asymmetry in how the saddle is sitting on your horse. My gut feeling is the the two are not linked. The first is easy to fix. The second may require some thought!

 

[Daytona]

I think what your maybe seeing it that saddle was being held - by me not exactly straight to the camera, so you see the inside of one panel slightly more than the which makes you think one side is large than the other. But don't quite me on it. Certainly when you look at the saddle it all loks equal etc. it's a new ish Black Country that was made to order. It's not a old tattie saddle .



Honestly there is not much more I can say really, I'm a oil and gas engineer not a trained saddle fitter, I put my trust in them and trust there judgement, and they have never mentioned saddle being not symmetrical and no it's not the same people who sold me the saddle BUT I will now ask them about it just to be sure.

 

[Capriole]

That's a picture of the saddle not the horse , the saddles not on the horse.

The horse looks asymmetrical, I think she was saying. In picture 1.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am not saying the saddle is not symmetrical I am saying the heat pattern on it is not.

 

[amage]

Both the picture of the horse and the picture of the saddle look asymmetrical and any decent person taking thermal imaging should make sure whatever you are taking the images of is straight! In order for an elastic strap to have that much effect on flocking then the elastic must be pulled way too tight and or the flocking VERY soft! Allowing for the fact that the horse is not stood straight it would be a far more accurate deduction from those images that the saddle is not actually fitting correctly. And doing further images in November is a waste of your time and money. Would be a far more accurate study to do another image today or tomorrow having done nothing to the saddle to see what the comparison is. If you saddler is seriously telling you that a lightweight elastic strap that will break if enough pressure is applied was able to pull hard enough on hard wearing leather and flocking to create the problem those images may show (and one cannot deduce they show a problem as they are not straight) then I would be most concerned about the short life your saddle will have if such a minor pressure has such a huge effect. Isn't this horse just back from a pro? Did they use your saddle and seat saver?

 

[LynH]

Have you sent this to Acavello? I'm sure they would be interested in this and if it is causing a major problem to saddle fit then it would make sense for them to adjust the way the seat saver is fitted to the saddle. I'd be interested in what they say about the straps.

Thank you for posting. I have one of these seat savers but use a sheepskin pad and saddle cloth. It's always good to hear about issues people are having with any product so others can check for themselves.

 

[Britestar]

The thing I noticed is that at the front of the same image are spots each side which probably are/due to the straps sewn onto the saddlecloth/ numnah. These too are causing an indentation in the flocking.
I always remove these straps from everything as was told many years ago of the problems they can cause.
Just an observation, as they are quite clear.

 

[Daytona]

Thanks for all your inputs, I have a plan, made with by the professionals I have trust in and I'm sticking to that plan, and I will be getting my horse rescanned in a couple of months, waste of money or not.

You have to eliminate 1 by 1 so for me the easiest was to start with saddle pad, going forward if he still shows redness in his back I will discuss my options with my vet and take it from there. Currently though I happy with him and he is showing no signs of a problem so I hope the redness is not too big a issue for him, only time will tell.

 

[Goldenstar]

Thanks for posting, I think it's a good lesson for people to be careful- tight straps around flocking dont sound like a good idea to me!

I'm yet to be totally convinced by the applications of thermal imaging, and the websites of these companies dont do much to sway my mind! These do appear to show more of one side of your saddle is in contact with the horse than the other, possibly due to you being slightly wonky or the saddle not sitting quite right.

How long after exercise was the back picture taken?

The thing I noticed is that at the front of the same image are spots each side which probably are/due to the straps sewn onto the saddlecloth/ numnah. These too are causing an indentation in the flocking.
I always remove these straps from everything as was told many years ago of the problems they can cause.
Just an observation, as they are quite clear.

I think those marks at the front will show the position of the points of the saddle tree reducing circulation in the muscles under the area of the points .

 

[*hic*]

The horse looks asymmetrical, I think she was saying. In picture 1.

Yup, because it would be such a very basic mistake to make, although the angles the pictures are from also look to be well off

 

[Britestar]

I think those marks at the front will show the position of the points of the saddle tree reducing circulation in the muscles under the area of the points .

Yes but very often this also where that solid bit of nylon is where the front straps are sewn on.

 

[philamena]

Thanks for posting the pictures, they're interesting and I know it probably feels like you take your sanity in your hands when you post pictures on controversial subjects .

I have to say that I was considering an acavallo seat saver and decided against it when I saw the attachments run under the panels because my horse is exactly like the princess and the pea and I had a feeling they'd cause her a problem - founded or otherwise, she's a tender plant! Good to know they stay on without.

For what it's worth I think the pictures are potentially useful, and whatever anyone thinks of them now, you'll only really know best when you get to do a comparison in a couple of months' time when you've been riding without the straps. I'd be interested to know what they look like at that point if you're up for posting them again...

 

[scots]

Can't see the pics, would love to see, as I didn't get one of these because my horse has had kissing spine and I thought the straps would do just this.

 

[Mike007]

Well I found this really interesting and it has given me serious food for thought. Whilst I dont have ,or need a seat saver(my seat is quite well padded enough ) I have always been suspicious of anything put betwean a saddle and the horses back. I am old enough to still think that the new fangled use of numnahs all the time is a worry.The straps clearly did somthing to the saddle pannels and that would worry me. OP , dont take to heart comments about asymetry. We all ride slightlly squiff , (except possibly Carl Hester ) So any possible influence from the straps will also be asymetrical. As an aside note too. "A" and I went to Goring BE today and got caught in a traffic jam in Reading. Throwing Thermal imaging,backs and seat savers into the conversation quite probably saved my lifeas neither of us handles traffic jams well . Instead of our usual bickering ,we had a very interesting conversation thanks to you.

 

[Daytona]

Well I found this really interesting and it has given me serious food for thought. Whilst I dont have ,or need a seat saver(my seat is quite well padded enough ) I have always been suspicious of anything put betwean a saddle and the horses back. I am old enough to still think that the new fangled use of numnahs all the time is a worry.The straps clearly did somthing to the saddle pannels and that would worry me. OP , dont take to heart comments about asymetry. We all ride slightlly squiff , (except possibly Carl Hester ) So any possible influence from the straps will also be asymetrical. As an aside note too. "A" and I went to Goring BE today and got caught in a traffic jam in Reading. Throwing Thermal imaging,backs and seat savers into the conversation quite probably saved my lifeas neither of us handles traffic jams well . Instead of our usual bickering ,we had a very interesting conversation thanks to you.

Thank you Mike, I'm glad someone found it interesting like I did, that was my intention just to give folks something to think about. Don't worry I'm not offended by anyone, I just get to a point in threads on H&H where I no longer feel I have anything constructive to add so just stop doing so. You can only repeat yourself so many times before u fall asleep Zzzz yawn lol
Glad at least it kept you sane stuck in traffic lol 😉

 

[Mike007]

Wouldnt go as far as to say sane but it did at least avoid the embarassment of my limp and lifeless body being found in the bus lane on the reading one way system.

 

[Daytona]

Ha ha 😉

 

[weebarney]

I can't see the pictures

 

[9tails]

I can't see the pictures either, but I have an Acavello seatsaver and will remove the straps from around the flocked panels immediately. Thanks for the warning, Ludoctro.

 

[alainax]

Had the saddle fitter out last week and she told me the seat saver straps had left indents in the panels they go around, possibly the indents rather than the straps causing the issue? Either way, you could feel the indents with your hand.

She fixed that, the re- fitted the seat saver so that the straps do not go around the panels, but was still fixed in place. She said this would stop that issue all together

On that subject, she also told me to put more padding on my saddle rack, as she could feel the indents from that too. Hadn't event crossed my mind that a normal saddle rack could cause an issue!

 

[Jnhuk]

Interesting thread but I really would like to see the thermal images but looks like they've been deleted or moved? Any chance you could re-post the images? Thanks in advance

 

[FfionWinnie]

It's definitely interesting and it had not occurred to me it could cause a problem. As I got my seat saver for endurance, I am pretty glad to have this information now!

 

[Goldenstar]

Had the saddle fitter out last week and she told me the seat saver straps had left indents in the panels they go around, possibly the indents rather than the straps causing the issue? Either way, you could feel the indents with your hand.

She fixed that, the re- fitted the seat saver so that the straps do not go around the panels, but was still fixed in place. She said this would stop that issue all together

On that subject, she also told me to put more padding on my saddle rack, as she could feel the indents from that too. Hadn't event crossed my mind that a normal saddle rack could cause an issue!

Some Saddle racks definatly can damage the flocking , I have used thick pipe insulation to pad mine it's easy to fit on and goes round the curves easily.

 

[khalswitz]

Some Saddle racks definatly can damage the flocking , I have used thick pipe insulation to pad mine it's easy to fit on and goes round the curves easily.

Interesting to hear about the saddle racks too, hadn't thought of that one!

The elastic on those seat savers is quite thick and tight elastic, doesn't surprise me it has indented the saddle causing that bridging effect. I'm assuming from the image that the two straps weren't actually sitting level with each other either? So your indents aren't level, and that would be causing the asymmetry in the bearing area at the back of the saddle?

WRT the back image, I know when my boy got scanned that I was given several back images - one was absolutely perfect angle, horse standing level etc, but one he was resting a leg and the angle wasn't quite so great. My thermographer told me that she likes to use a few images to illustrate that the same hotspot comes up repeatedly, especially if she thinks it's significant - however sometimes this means using an extra image that isn't as great in terms of angles etc as her best shot. So did your thermographer give you more than one back image that hasn't been shared here? I always think without seeing the full report with the suggested problems etc it's difficult to judge someone else's images - we don't know the history, and haven't seen the horse or the way he rides.

Also, saw someone said about the cold spots at the front of the saddle - is it just me, or does that not make sense? Surely if it was 'causing constriction on the muscle' or whatever, it would be really red/white on the saddle, not blue? If the saddle is blue, it means that part isn't touching the horse? So that wouldn't add up to the nylon numnah attachment either, as that would cause pressure, therefore heat? So surely, it being symmetrical, it's likely to be a manufactured indent on the underside of the front of the panel? That's what I would have thought?

 

[Goldenstar]

My understanding is that excess pressure damages muscle circulation over time there fore its logical that pressure for example from the saddle points could well show as cool spots .
Basically I was taught that chronic pressure can cause cool spots because the circulation in the muscle is impaired .

 

[khalswitz]

My understanding is that excess pressure damages muscle circulation over time there fore its logical that pressure for example from the saddle points could well show as cool spots .
Basically I was taught that chronic pressure can cause cool spots because the circulation in the muscle is impaired .

I would completely agree on the horse, that cool spots are signs of reduced blood flow. But the saddle? Reduced blood flow is still blood flow, and whilst comparatively on the horse it would come up cool, compared to cold leather it would still come up warm, just not quite as warm as elsewhere on the saddle? And if it was the saddle causing the pressure leading to reduced blood flow, wouldn't you see the saddle area as hotter, as it has more contact with the body, which is supplying the heat that is read off the saddle?? Does that even make sense? Just basing this off my understanding of physics...