Shock collars

[Books'n'dogs]

To begin with I am not a fan of their use! However, my parents are friends with a couple who, after three decades of owning German Shepherds and a Shetland Sheepdog, have acquired an adolescent Australian Terrier, the dog frequently puts its teeth on people (gently, my mom says it's not a nip) when it gets over excited. The man who owns it is very old school and told my mom that he plans on using a shock collar to train the dog to stop the behavior, in all other aspects this man provides his dogs with a wonderful life but I'd like to share a knowledgeable article on the harmfulness of electric shock collars (especially for terriers, if possible). I did a Google search and all I am finding are very fluffy articles (i.e. calling dogs fur babies, etc., which this man will NOT sympathize with). I thought I'd ask you all if you could share any studies/articles that you are aware of on the subject. Thanks in advance!

 

[stangs]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32793652/ - comparing the efficacy of electronic collars to R+

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159106003820 - electric collars, if not used in a very specific/accurate way, result in increased stress

 

[CorvusCorax]

No science, just personal experience.

I am not outright against the use of a quality branded remote training aid by a competent/trained user with excellent timing who understands behaviour modification and can read the animal, on a suitable dog which has been conditioned properly.

But if this guy does not understand/know what is behind the behaviour, and uses a cheap collar on a dog which doesn't know what it's getting stimmed for, then he is just pouring petrol on the fire.

It's not a quick fix and is a method that can do more harm than good.
Bad dog - ZAP is not 'training' and is the reason why people hate any mention of the device.

Nipping/mouthing when over-excited is usually stressy/appeasement type behaviour, he needs to address that, spot the signs and prevent the dog from getting into that state in the first place.

 

[Books'n'dogs]

No science, just personal experience.

I am not outright against the use of a quality branded remote training aid by a competent/trained user with excellent timing who understands behaviour modification and can read the animal, on a suitable dog which has been conditioned properly.

But if this guy does not understand/know what is behind the behaviour, and uses a cheap collar on a dog which doesn't know what it's getting stimmed for, then he is just pouring petrol on the fire.

It's not a quick fix and is a method that can do more harm than good.
Bad dog - ZAP is not 'training' and is the reason why people hate any mention of the device.

Nipping/mouthing when over-excited is usually stressy/appeasement type behaviour, he needs to address that, spot the signs and prevent the dog from getting into that state in the first place.

I agree on addressing what is causing the behavior in the first place, I just don't know if this man will listen to me, he's in his 70s and has known me since I was 3 years old, I thought an article would possibly be more acceptable to him. I have seen the dog but not spent any time with it; my mom told me it was born during the COVID pandemic, placed with a single woman, returned to the breeder for being too much for its original owner, then placed with the couple I know, all before its first birthday; I can definitely see why it is trying to appease its new family. My mom said it is very sweet natured but has more energy than any dog she has ever met, the over-excitement seems to stem from receiving attention from what she told me. He would like to train the dog in therapy work, which is what he did with his GSDs, but my mom said the terrier is probably more suited to agility or flyball.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ok so I think he has to manage his expectations/work with what he has...he probably wouldn't expect a St Bernard to do well at the agility or flyball so expecting a really energetic fizzy terrier to be a nice calm therapy dog is a bit of a stretch.

It's not necessarily due to trauma but it is a bit like sucking a dummy only more annoying taking their stress and excitement out in a physical way.
But not really conducive to therapy work.

He needs to teach the dog to be calm, maybe a place command, nothing which will create the hyper behaviour in the house.

Will PM you also

 

[Books'n'dogs]

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[stangs]

Agree with CC that place mats, or similar methods of reinforcing calmness, are the way to go here. And lots of mental enrichment, even more exercise, but also walks on a long leash that allow him to sniff and chill. If the behaviour is being due to over-arousal when receiving attention, the increased stress levels with an electric collar will probably make things worse in other ways.

A terrier seems a weird choice for a therapy dog?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Not help to the OP post, so apologies - but if us humans have to resort to electrocuting an animal in order to get it to do what we want then stop the world I want to get off.
It's no different to electric spurs, in fact it's worse as it's around their neck and used often by people with some sort of alpha insecurity.

 

[laura_nash]

Not help to the OP post, so apologies - but if us humans have to resort to electrocuting an animal in order to get it to do what we want then stop the world I want to get off.
It's no different to electric spurs, in fact it's worse as it's around their neck and used often by people with some sort of alpha insecurity.

Most of us here resort to electrocuting animals to get them to do what we want ( electric fences)?

I do think that a shock collar is totally the wrong piece of equipment to deal with nipping/mouthing when stressed or excited.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Most of us here resort to electrocuting animals to get them to do what we want ( electric fences)?

I do think that a shock collar is totally the wrong piece of equipment to deal with nipping/mouthing when stressed or excited.

An electric fence gives the animal a choice of whether they would like to walk into it or not, it is a compartiviely small shock in comparison to the size of animal (3000 volts average), it is used to enforce a safety thing, not stop them from doing behaviour I have decided is unsavoury, not to mention it shocks them usually ontop of their fur.

A shock collar is fastened around their neck with voltage usually between 3000-4500 volts which is big in comparison to the size of animal (and has been noted to cause burns), it is used to enforce any sort of whim of the owner and it's within their control re: the timing and how many shocks, the animal can't escape the shock and it has prongs which sit through the fur to make contact with the skin.

We can start comparing the two when I clip my horse, tie the electric fence around it's neck and attach a remote to it which I will use as and when I feel like the horse is doing something I have arbitrarily decided it shouldn't.

 

[Books'n'dogs]

I'm going to tell my mom to suggest more mental stimulation and training calming techniques plus share the articles/studies with the owners. I have no idea how the man decided on an Australian Terrier, especially since one never sees them here and the breeder was on the other side of the country. My mom thinks the terrier might actually enjoy therapy work when it is older and calmer since he seems to love people. Maybe the owner should get his grandsons to do agility with the dog in the meantime!

 

[misst]

I own what my vet believes to be an Australian Terrier, and a lady I met on a walk one day used to breed them and stopped to ask where I got him from, he was a stray though so no idea if he really is. As a young 7 month dog he was quite nippy but so was my JRT puppy - she is 2 and can still play rougher than I would want her to when excited. I cannot imagine either of them responding well to a shock.

My boy is now 6 and very loving and pretty calm most of the time (squirrels excepted). A busy lifestyle, lots of praise and a firm NO when needed have been sufficient for him. The JRT is the same but still a bit full on. I think it is the breeding that makes them this way and they do need to be allowed to be terriers some of the time. They need to be busy and mentally stimulated but I have always found terriers trainable but hard work as pups. In the past our terriers have calmed down between the ages of 2 and 4 but they did not "firm" boundaries in place and reminding of them throughout their lives. Punishment of these dogs seems to result in a cowed animal but boundaries and positive reinforcement result in happy, friendly unique dogs. Terriers are a bit of an aquired taste though maybe they are just not for him.