Shod or barefoot?

[cptrayes]

My new forest pony is shod all round, all year Costs me a small fortune but she needs to be shod for the work that she does.

Unlikely to be true S&D, sorry The truth is more likely to be that you cannot provide her with turnout without excess green stuff. An NF pony ought to be able to do any amount of roads and tracks without shoes on. If you cannot provide her with what she needs to do that work without shoes that is not a problem, but equally it is nothing to do with the work that she does, because plenty of ponies like her are doing the same work without shoes. If may take just a small tweak of her management to allow you to drastically reduce the cost of keeping her. If you get short of money at any time, do consider it, we will be happy to help you work out how to make it work for you both.

 

[Fii]

Thats abit harsh I also don't believe in this barefoot is best. I believe in what is best for the indervidule horse or pony.

Herbie is unshod. (I'm lothed to use the term barefoot anymore due to the extreame reaction it gets) I hack him out, school him, compeat him and hunt him and he copes just fine He's a forest bred forester and we live in the new forest so it's all natural to him. We wouldn't be able to get shoes on him anyway. He was shod infront when I bought him. The shoes were put in very badly and when my farrier went to shoe him we found out why. I was hanging off one side of him, one farrier was hanging off the other side and the other farrier was hanging off his foot He was dangourous and we had to give up. (My farriers bred persharons (SP ) and delt with foals bigger than Herbs but even they said it wasn't worth the fight ) I now have a girl farrier who Herbie loves but as he is coping fine barefoot so we have desided not to rock the boat and put shoes on. )

Out of interest Laura, was that Robert Sampsom you had as a farrier?

 

[Teeni]

Barefoot, never been shod

Though i would shoe if she needed it

 

[CorvusCorax]

But when I take them off I am not shoeless or unshod, I am barefoot, or in my stockinged feet.

The term "shoeless" implies that shoeing is the natural order of things and that being without shoes is a temporary state of affairs. For barefooters, the reverse is true.

I don't care if other people want to call their horses shoeless but I am baffled that they have so much of a problem with me calling mine barefoot.

In the original True Grit the heroine says "you'd better put some shoes on it, I ain't riding no barefoot pony. It's not new!

You say potato, etc etc etc - agree though, it doesn't mean either of us is wrong!

 

[Marydoll]

2 retired, barefoot, see farrier not a bft every 6-8 weeks, if they need a trim they get it, one TB shod all round, im not sure id like to try her barefoot/unshod tbh, shes a bit to princessy

 

[welshcob*]

Just fronts for my girl

 

[tazzle]

hhhhmmmmmmmmm blimming english language and its definitions /associations ..... causes soooooo many problems

I really do not care whether they are "barefoot" or "unshod" ( does it realy matter ) and I dont follow trends /fashion ( buck them more like ).... but I took Taz's shoes off as soon as we could get her cooperation to do so and she has not had metal on her feet since . I just dont see the point in putting anything on a horse it does not need . (So that is about 11 years.) In that time we have done low level endurance and lots of driving ( getting fit enough to do driving trials) on the roads so has been "in work" on all sorts of surfaces.

B's previous owners had tried to take her shoes off apparently and it failed..... but we had a go and she has not had shoes on in 8 years... she is not as rock crunching but she was a lot older ( now 20). She is never lame / footie she just tends to avoid gravel ...... but then again she avoids puddles too so not sure I can be certain that it causes her any real discomfort


I wonder why there has been a perception that any extreme regime is required ..... apart from a transition period to let a previously shod horse get used to being without the rest is just good general and feet health management

 

[tallyho!]

You say potato, etc etc etc - agree though, it doesn't mean either of us is wrong!

No it doesn't per se.. however, I do think barefoot describes a certain type of trimming and ethos specifically for performance where the intention is to manage and work the horse normally without the need for shoes based on scientific research by quite a few vets, farriers, nutritionists and scientists the world over.

Whereas I think unshod, also a valid term, describes more a horse who has had shoes removed with no specific trimming for a period of time with the intention of putting shoes back on at some point.

So even though you are not wrong, the definitions are clear and I think NEED to be made as Cluck says. So to a certain extent it is tomayyto/tomarrto if people don't know the subtle differences but it is worth knowing what the differences are.

 

[tallyho!]

hhhhmmmmmmmmm blimming english language and its definitions /associations ..... causes soooooo many problems

I wonder why there has been a perception that any extreme regime is required ..... apart from a transition period to let a previously shod horse get used to being without the rest is just good general and feet health management

This is the perception I want to quell.

There is no extreme regime!!!! You are absolutely right about health and management tazzle. However, the health and management in the UK in general is not ideal for performing barefoot nor is it set up for it. Our pasture is for harvesting milk and meat. It is too rich for most horses. You cannot deny that the UK has the highest prevalence of equine obesity, cushings, laminitis, EMS and other metabolic disorders. Shoeing is perceived to save the horses hoof from deteriorating in our wet claggy climate where footrot in sheep & cattle is a major problem. This is NORMAL???!!!!! No THIS is extreme.

A paradigm shift is taking place in the UK and I am glad you think it's easy peasy common sense stuff as it has taken a long time for many modern owners to realise ponies can't be kept like cows.

All the research and dedication invested into laminitis, cushings, navicular, and other painful manifestations of current husbandry has led to developments which is now thought to be common sense as tazzle demonstrates. Maybe we should have just asked her before we gave the vet, who is a very very clever person, our money to cure our laminitic horses with crazy shoeing and drugs which gave them ulcers and abcesses, which holed them up in a stable for 6 months no moving.

Should have just unshod him...

 

[MagicMelon]

ahem,its not ignorant rubbish,very insulting comment in my mind,all our horses are shod,thats the way it is,everyone is entitledto their own opinion onthis contentious issue.

How is that insulting? stacy181 commented that barefoot is "rubbish". She clearly has absolutely no idea about barefoot so that by dictionary terms constitutes ignorance. You cant make an informed comment about something without knowing something about the subject. She then goes on to STATE that "if u have a horse/pony that is ridden once, twice or everyday needs 2 have some protection in there hoofs no matter what u do with them!" - yet again, total uninformed myth. She's not saying "I believe that..." she's saying it as if its a fact which it clearly isn't. This comment is extremely ignorant to the point of being very unbelievable. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people shoeing - the fact that yours are shod is fine by me. I have mine shod over the eventing season too so I'm not dead against it. What I don't believe in is people automatically shoeing because clueless people like stacy181 come along and tell them they HAVE to shoe their horse. I have had all 3 - shod, unshod and barefoot so although I dont know everything about these methods by any means, at least I have experience with them enough to give my opinion.

 

[amandap]

Ah, extreme regimes. Well I have all my lot on what many would think of as an extreme regime. I don't do it because I've been told to or because it's a fashion either despite what others may think.
I have one laminitic, two who were overweight and one who developed severely flat hooves and cracks on turn out last winter. Since they have been yarded (in a very lage yard surrounding my buildings) the cracks have healed with only three proper trims, the two have lost weight and coincidentally their hooves have improved and one who is prone to irritability with other horses is as chilled as can be.
I have started limited turn out again for some and I shall see how they get on.

Of course I could ignore these responses to no grass and soaked hay and find some other explanation, I could shoe but I choose not to because I believe it would only cause more problems in the longer term. I have been concerned about their mental health but have not seen deterioration in their mental health or signs that they are 'depressed' and anyone reading who assumes they MUST be will have to take my word for it. In fact I think they are more content now based on their interaction amongst themselves and willingness to do stuff with and for me.
I constantly ask myself if I'm doing the right thing but I've come to the conclusion that they are better now and that my grass is capable of causing them serious problems in general and if I wanted to take them anywhere that isn't grass.

I have been accused directly and indirectly of following trends and 'gurus', being closed minded and blind many, many times over many subjects on various forums but I learn all I can and listen to my horses and act on that as best as I can.

I also see the term barefoot as meaning an holistic approach as opposed to unshod which to me means no shoes and often no work. I do know many don't see a difference, fair enough.

Mta. I suppose my regime is like 24/7 stabling but with room to move and interact in a herd as well as access to varied surfaces, trees, shrubs, shelter etc.

 

[Changes]

I will not be putting you on ignore. I do not mind reading your provocative nonsense. If I read it I can correct incorrect statements that you make about horses needing shoes. You also write it partly to get a response from me and on a windy wet winter evening, I am happy to oblige you

I repeat - you quoted me initially. So I suggest that you're the one looking for a response from me. You suggest ignore - I return the compliment.

As for your arrogance that I write to get a response from you - seriously, what kind of ego issues do you have? My initial post was a response to the poll, nothing more, yet you pick up on my quote and turn it into another disagreement.

I think your arrogance and determination to spread the word that your methods are the only way forward is frightening. I've been at a lot of world class events the last few years - all their horses were shod, all hundreds and hundreds of them. Are you egotistical enough to believe that you are right and they are wrong?

If horses can be kept sound and happy without shoes, then fine. If they need shoes then fine. But barring a few, MOST horses in serious competitive work need shoes.

 

[Changes]

Ah, extreme regimes. Well I have all my lot on what many would think of as an extreme regime. I don't do it because I've been told to or because it's a fashion either despite what others may think.
I have one laminitic, two who were overweight and one who developed severely flat hooves and cracks on turn out last winter. Since they have been yarded (in a very lage yard surrounding my buildings) the cracks have healed with only three proper trims, the two have lost weight and coincidentally their hooves have improved and one who is prone to irritability with other horses is as chilled as can be.

Restriction for health issue (over weight and laminitic - how did that happen - did you buy them like that?) is not the same as restriction to indulge a methodology to prove a point.

 

[amandap]

Restriction for health issue (over weight and laminitic - how did that happen - did you buy them like that?) is not the same as restriction to indulge a methodology to prove a point.

No I didn't buy them like that, they became like that since moving to Ireland. It's a long, long story but involved trips back and forth to England, horses with a friend for a year, sick relatives and importantly taking my eye off the ball.
Actually, I did 'buy' the one with cracks like that but they healed a few years ago. One was overweight too. Mini shetland developed her first bout of laminitis with a friend and I let the other two get overweight (one again) and cracks develop again.
I'm not afraid to share my shame or that I'm far from perfect but I have learned. You can add restrictive regime to the list of my short comings all you want but if I turn them/some out I am worried that same would happen again and I'm not risking it here.

It is easy to make the assumption restriction is done to pay homage to a methodology but if you knew individual circumstances you would most often find reasons. I find people are quick to judge and assume you are a fanatic rather than someone learning to listen to their horses and try and respond to their needs. Horses and circumstances are individual.

 

[Janette]

Star's shoes came off 3 years ago.
Previously, her feet were contracted, thrushy and boxy. The clefts were so closed that they were difficult to pick out. The final straw was when she got maggots in her heels. The farrier wanted me to put all sorts of treatments on her feet when really they needed to be kept clean and 'aired'
They seemed to 'ping' open about 3 weeks after the shoes came off. The thrush cleared up, the infections disappeared and now I can pick her feet out with no foul smell.

The shoes were removed by the farrier who left her toes long. These she knocked off herself, demonstrating a lovely 'mustang roll' LOL Because of this, I started using a barefoot trimmer and her feet have never looked back. They are fully open and healthy.

She hacks on roads and tracks. I compete her showing and dressage.

It's £35 every 6 weeks for a trim.

Too many pluses in that equation for me.

I didn't follow a 'regime', just used my common sense. Road work, grass over stony tracks, gradually building up the range of surfaces which we rode over. Now, she is a 'stone cruncher' (love that term )

 

[siennamum]

I am a fan of leaving horses barefoot if at all possible. Logic dictates that it is the most healthy option. BUT I do dispute that a berefoot regime is as easy as people claim, or that it is without it's own issues.

My horses live on the side of a hill which has never been fertilised, ploughed, weedkillered etc, etc. It is stony and weedy, and I think fantastic pasture for horses. They spend all their time going up and down hill, foraging, playing and snoozing. The field has some mud, but unfortunately, the horses feet are at this time of the year, wet or damp all the time. I wouldn't bring them in onto yards because of the wonderful lifestyle they have in the field.

This week my youngster can't cope without shoes because his feet are too worn down and tender. He goes a couple of months barefoot and then he starts opting to go on the verge on hacks and I know he is sore. This tenderness relates directly to how short his hooves are.

He is having his shoes back on on Friday so his work is uninterrupted this Winter. He is not fat, gets hay and grass, and the grass is minimal now. I am sure that he could be barefoot if I changed his regime, transitioned him and bought some boots. I don't want to tho. I want him to work properly not learn to take short cautious strides, I want him in the field as much as possible, and I want to go where I want when I want without worrying about whether it will be sore for him.

I think it's important to have balance, and shoes are a great and proven way of allowing me to do all the above.

 

[Changes]

Horses and circumstances are individual.

Exactly. Which is why neither shoeing nor barefoot should be force fed on the internet.

 

[ThePony]

Two horses happily barefoot. One was shod for 13 years previously and the other has always been barefoot.

If either of them needed shoes, I wouldn't hesitate to find what was wrong with my management of them and correct it.

Most sensible reply I have read, and yet it has somehow been glossed over in the hubbub!

An important aspect being that if the horse was sore then it's management would need to be tweaked to result in ideal management for a healthy horse - this would be the same management regardless of what you do/don't do to your horses feet! It is just fortunate that those without shoes show problems much more quickly, the owners can then attend to the issue before it escalates.

 

[ThePony]

Exactly. Which is why neither shoeing nor barefoot should be force fed on the internet.

I don't think either are, but on a thread with this title you can fairly expect to find a good deal of discussion on it though!

 

[a kind of magic]

Mine are all shoe-less and fancy free! All farrier trims.

They all cope very well despite a few hiccups on the previously shod ones (we had him shod up to 19 but now he is happily un-shod) I was spurred on by the 3 who have never had shoes and had on the whole, much better hoof health.

 

[cptrayes]

I think your arrogance and determination to spread the word that your methods are the only way forward is frightening.

Have you ever actually read this post that I wrote over a year ago Changes, when you accuse me of saying my methods are the only way forward, and frightening?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405124

I've been at a lot of world class events the last few years - all their horses were shod, all hundreds and hundreds of them. Are you egotistical enough to believe that you are right and they are wrong?

Yes. I can't remember who said it, but "progress is made by unreasonable people".

You accused me, wrongly, of giving my horses a harmful regime, but plenty of dressage horses at top level would not be able to go barefoot in spite of only ever working on perfect surfaces because they are so valuable that they are never allowed out and get no movement or conditioning. Do I think those world class riders are wrong to keep their horses that way, resulting in them needing shoes? Too right, am I arrogant enough to believe that they are wrong and I am right.

If horses can be kept sound and happy without shoes, then fine. If they need shoes then fine.

And this is exactly what I say myself, as you will see if you follow the link above.

But barring a few, MOST horses in serious competitive work need shoes.

I do not believe that you are correct. My opinion is that eventers and showjumpers need shoes if they require studs. No dressage horse would need shoes if it was fed correctly and worked appropriately and I think you will find that more and more extreme shoes are being fitted to articially "improve" the horses' gaits. Personally I would rather see the horse with the best natural paces win.

The rest of shoeing is because we originally shod to allow horses which would otherwise be lame to be fed high grain diets, be on restricted or intermittent exercise, and stand in ammonia in stables, all of which weakens the feet. That was necessary when horses were machines, it is not necessary now. We have just become so accustomed to seeing horses with shoes on that we cease to question it.

Tell me, when did it become routine to shoe cobs and ponies? If certainly wasn't when I was a child. Why is it now? Did those cobs and ponies suddenly start to "need" shoes in the past 50 years? No, it was party a fashion, to follow the "grown-ups" and partly because we started to treat ponies and cobs like hard working horses, feeding them grain and keeping them stabled.

There are now four barefoot horses regularly hunting with my drag hunt, sometimes six. There are more and more affiliated barefoot eventers and long distance competitive riders. The cat is out of the bag, the word is spreading - most horses can do just as well, often better, without shoes than with them; the received wisdom that horses in hard work need shoes is a myth.

 

[amandap]

Most sensible reply I have read, and yet it has somehow been glossed over in the hubbub!

An important aspect being that if the horse was sore then it's management would need to be tweaked to result in ideal management for a healthy horse - this would be the same management regardless of what you do/don't do to your horses feet! It is just fortunate that those without shoes show problems much more quickly, the owners can then attend to the issue before it escalates.

I agree and changing management greatly is where I've seen the biggest changes and for the better.
I'm ambivalent about shoes tbh but do worry that they are used to get over management problems for the horse and in the long term the horse may still be struggling and we just aren't aware until a breakdown. Incidentally, break down and last resort is how many people come to the 'barefoot' thinking in the first place.

In all this there is the problem of grass and hay/haylage in different areas and yards, some horses seem to do well and others struggle. I want to know why rather than just shoe. My horses have generally struggled since I moved over here but I've also learned much more and see/notice much more that I used to be oblivious to.

 

[Janah]

I am amazed at the number of barefoot horses on here!!!

 

[tazzle]

This is the perception I want to quell.

There is no extreme regime!!!! You are absolutely right about health and management tazzle. However, the health and management in the UK in general is not ideal for performing barefoot nor is it set up for it. Our pasture is for harvesting milk and meat. It is too rich for most horses. You cannot deny that the UK has the highest prevalence of equine obesity, cushings, laminitis, EMS and other metabolic disorders. Shoeing is perceived to save the horses hoof from deteriorating in our wet claggy climate where footrot in sheep & cattle is a major problem. This is NORMAL???!!!!! No THIS is extreme.

A paradigm shift is taking place in the UK and I am glad you think it's easy peasy common sense stuff as it has taken a long time for many modern owners to realise ponies can't be kept like cows.

All the research and dedication invested into laminitis, cushings, navicular, and other painful manifestations of current husbandry has led to developments which is now thought to be common sense as tazzle demonstrates. Maybe we should have just asked her before we gave the vet, who is a very very clever person, our money to cure our laminitic horses with crazy shoeing and drugs which gave them ulcers and abcesses, which holed them up in a stable for 6 months no moving.

Should have just unshod him...

I agree tally ho ...... and with your defintion of the difference between unshod and barefoot ....... when I wrote my "dont care" post I was tired and fed up and not in the best of moods . There are times when I actually am not bothered when people that are closed minded are just nit picking about it and denigrating "barefoot" as extremeism ... but when a serious discussion is taking place yes I agree that there is a difference between taking shoes off temporarily and taking them off ( or never putting them on) with purpose long term.

and that A lot of our equines are paying the price of us keeping them on grass "designed" for high yield calories from pasture for milk and beef production ........


actually I was "challenged" a few weeks ago by someone who said our horses were in "poor" condition / considering reporting me to WHW. Said complainants neds are, you guessed it prob ........ obese

One of my horses got a very mild dose of lami a few years ago and even the vet could suggest nothing to change in our mangement to prevent a recurrence as our management was "perfect" ! We think it was the change in grass nutrients due to the longer, warmer summer / autumn so we were even stricter with the grazing for longer and no issues this year. If we had listened to above person a few weeks ago and given them more grass I suspect we might have had recurrence of lami as conditions identical to the year she did get it . Chatting to our vet this week he says there has been again this autumn higher levels of LGL and full blown laminitis.

To me it does just seem common sense and everyday .... but I am not in a livery yard so I am, these days, not used to how other people manage their horses re stabling, feed etc.I remember doing it in the distant past but its now alien to me

 

[cptrayes]

I am amazed at the number of barefoot horses on here!!!

So am I Janah! Of course there are far more people with shod horses who simply haven't answered the poll question, and the poll is pretty useless really (though interesting!), but goodness me aren't there a lot of us now who aren't paying £80 a set to have a farrier nail steel to our horses' feet any more!?

 

[tallyho!]

Thanks tazzle. I'm sorry if I got a bit uppity - barefoot came to me quite late tbh and after 4 years of research and putting it into practice makes me mad when people 'cheapen' it by arguing it is the same as unshod. It's common sense when you start to discover things, but I wasn't taught any of it at riding schools or older people as I grew up. I found it by myself and my friends think I'm mad!

Yes, agree about this year high numbers of lami again. Mine is still muzzled out there mid november and I get called cruel. What is more cruel? Lami or muzzle which allows him to roam with a herd 24/7 but not each as much.

 

[tazzle]

nah ..... didn't think you were uppity .... you were clarifying for anyone confuggled

Have a wee laugh ....

. I remember turning up for and endurance ride some years back and the farrier looking her Taz's feet saying at first she could not compete because she was not shod. Then when I said she was barefoot he demanded a letter from my farrier so he could be sure I had not just pulled shoes off recently cos I had lost one ..... Flipping heck could he not see she had no nail holes in her hooves

He let me take past only cos I had brought her boots as back up


this was her on stony ground

actually a lot of it was stony ground through forest trails that day !

and at one point she was trotting and keeping up with an arab that went nowhere at less than 8 - 9 mph....... not bad

 

[tallyho!]

Hah ha! yep, no nail holes - what a farrier!!!!!!

That's awesome! She a beaut of a rock-cruncher You both look great!

 

[whisp&willow]

nah ..... didn't think you were uppity .... you were clarifying for anyone confuggled

Have a wee laugh ....

. I remember turning up for and endurance ride some years back and the farrier looking her Taz's feet saying at first she could not compete because she was not shod. Then when I said she was barefoot he demanded a letter from my farrier so he could be sure I had not just pulled shoes off recently cos I had lost one ..... Flipping heck could he not see she had no nail holes in her hooves

He let me take past only cos I had brought her boots as back up


this was her on stony ground

actually a lot of it was stony ground through forest trails that day !

and at one point she was trotting and keeping up with an arab that went nowhere at less than 8 - 9 mph....... not bad

if it aint broke, dont fix it! my horse was unshod for 2 years while she was out of work, but is now shod on all four while in work.

 

[gemliz23]

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