Shoeing / Hoof Advice Required Please

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Ladydragon

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Hi All...

I'm hoping someone might be able to give me a few suggestions to proceed with our four yr old TB's horribly pathetic feet...

He's got very small feet and the hoof just seems to crumble with the slightest knock... The farrier family who shoe him are very popular locally but every time he's shod (cold as recommended because his feet are so bad and don't grow much), it's pretty much guaranteed he'll lose a back shoe within two to three weeks... So far we've been lucky with some pretty deep punctures and there's been no abscess develop but the time between losing a shoe and the farrier coming to replace one means he'll have taken chunks out of the hoof wall... He's horribly footsore within a day or two... He's not in proper work at the moment - just some schooling in the menage...

I've not had much from the farriers other than "He's just got bad feet and needs to be shod more regularly than most" although when the dad of the family saw him on one occasion he put lightweight shoes on the back feet and the whole set lasted a full six weeks... He's an older chap though and pretty much retired now so I can't have him out again... Since then, every set (still lightweight shoes on the back) has dropped one or both back shoes in two to three weeks...

He's fed Allan & Page with a Biotin supplement... The grazing and haylage is good quality with most horses (including our others) on the yard cheerfully barefoot... The same farrier trims them... I'm not very good with all things farrier related and awkward feet so am unsure if I should be expecting a bit more from them than the somewhat dismissive "He's just got bad feet" and the extra charges for the extra shoes... :o

I have spoken to another farrier who was recommended as he's got the extra qualifications for remedial work and master farrier... He's a bit more expensive but not much if I include the extra shoes each time going on at the moment... It was only a quick call but he recommended seaweed and sulpher and said he'd be very surprised if he wouldn't be able to help the horse's feet over time - I'm just not sure whether this situation is 'normal' with TBs?! I don't want to jump ship from a decent farrier family if what they are doing is good enough...

Any advice/opinions welcome... :)
 
Well, I've had 6 tbs and they've all had good feet, so I think it's a bit of a lazy generalisation from yoiur farrier. The seaweed supplement is an excellent suggestion, but it will take at least nine months for the full effect to be seen as the whole hoof has to regrow.

I think I would change to the remedial master farrier as your current ones don't seem to be doing much to improve the situation. The fact that the retired father's shoeing enabled the shoes to stay on for six weeks speaks for itself.

Could you get some Boa boots or similar to use for when his shoes fall off?
 
most importantly with Tb's or any horse with bad feet is to keep them short because when they get long they become weak - chip/crack/cant hole nails etc, if it was a front shoe he was losing I would say his hinds were too long and he was overreaching but as it is his hinds I would say he is stepping on them with the other hind so have a good look at the shoe is it over on the inside of the hoof and are the backs of the shoes longer than the hoof, then also check how long the hind feet actually are and are the well balanced without a wedge on the inside, you can then get your farrier to correct all of this at the next shoeing but if it was me I would get myself another farrier. (I have seen some really poor shoeing in my time with horses and luckily as we have 4 farriers working all the time - yes I work for a Racehorse Trainer - I have been lucky to have been told by the farriers why things like losing shoes happen) also dont treat the feet with oils etc, let the ground moisture them itself during winter and in summer do not let them become dry, hose them at least twice a week.
 
Thank you Tammytoo...

I've never had a TB before so wasn't sure if it was 'just a TB thing'... I only picked this lad up in June - he was a heart ruling head addition to the family as the poor thing was in a deplorable state and I just couldn't leave him...

He's come on fabulously in every way - except these feet... They don't grow very fast so the minute he drops a shoe and the hoof starts losing chunks it's not even as if they can be smoothed properly or have fresh hoof for the nails... Our turnout is pretty much the side of a mountain so there is plenty for him to damage soft, crumbly feet on...

I don't mind if it's going to take time or paying a bit extra if I know there's an intention to try and improve things - which there isn't at the moment with these guys... That being said, they're very good at handling the horses and he is the only one with a problem so I haven't really been confident about going elsewhere...

I'll get some seaweed and google boa boots... :)
 
Id have the shoes taken off ASAP.

The horse clearly currently has compromised hooves, a lot of this will be diet - not sure how long you've had him so it could be whatever he was fed previous to you.

The rest is the fact you are regularly having to bang nails into an already weakened hoof - imagine a rotten wooden rail and you nail it to a post. How little pressure do you think that needs before it splits and cracks again?

His feet need chance to grow , be stimulated correctly and grow the shape they need at the moment.

You will possibly need boots to begin with so that his hooves get the stimulus they need through being worked in order to grow, without self trimming it off too quickly.

Whereabouts in the country are you? And can we have some pics of said feet :)
 
Remember you cant turn out with boots, they are expensive, you might buy a size whatever now but in 6 months time when the hoof has changed shape and actually got bigger because the foot flattens and the clefts besides the frogs get bigger the boots will not fit the horse and if you get to that stage his feet will be so good you wouldnt want to start putting a shoe back on, so you need to think what you are going to do with him 9 months down the road, also if you keep him in shoes no matter how much you spend on seaweed which is excellent unless you address the shoeing issue his feet will not improve and you will be throwing good money after bad, i dont think in his current state his feet will last in your field as they are too soft and shoes will just be ripped off because your field is not level, food for thought but good luck, going barefoot is brilliant though.
 
Thanks Beeswax...

He over reaches when he is ridden and has loosened up... I haven't noticed his rear feet getting too close to each other but I've not been looking for it...

The last shoe was on Tuesday... It literally looked as if it had just fallen off with gravity... The two that came off early before that - I found one and it looked as if it had come off on the inside first and flipped outwards underneath as the bent nails were on the outside and the outer hoof had a rather large chunk missing out of it... Which might be as you were suggesting... His feet are short - they just don't grow much between shoeing... Any trimming he has to put new shoes on appears (to my very untrained eye) to be minimal compared to others on the yard...

I think there is always a tiny bit of shoe extending beyond the very back of his feet... Not much though and as I said, I really don't know the first thing about judging shoeing...

You have reminded me that we were told we could use a lacquer of some sort to harden the hoof but I was a bit uncomfortable with that as I always thought the hoof needed to 'breath'... There was no specificity and when I did look at products it was a bit overwhelming...
 
The shoes arent coming off because the field is unlevel (!) they are coming off because the hooves are compromised.

These are some tbs feet, she came to live with me back in may having never been able to keep shoes on for longer than 3 weeks at a time.

IMG_0529.jpg


IMG_0530.jpg


IMG_0531.jpg


The shoes came off and she was trimmed and then left for 12 weeks. She went out on the roads about 4 weeks into that 12, perfectly sound, has been sound throughout. Her feet are so much better now, the fronts are actually a pair! Owners are astonished they never believed she wouldnt be hopping lame as whenever she lost a shoe before she wouldnt put weight on that foot.

Just shows what problems shoeing is actually covering up ;)
 
TigerTail said:
Id have the shoes taken off ASAP.
<snipped for brevity>
Whereabouts in the country are you? And can we have some pics of said feet :)
Click to expand...

I'm in wet and muddy south Wales... :)

I can take some piccies if anyone thinks it would help... My preference would be barefoot if it was possible as our daughter's Sec B is fine with no at this time - he has fronts in the summer just because we have to use the road to get to most hacking areas and he wears the front part away quickly... The pony my grand daughter has on loan is totally barefoot and copes perfectly all year around... I understand what you say regarding the wood and nails analogy... He was in a terrible state when we got him in June - not far off rolling over and giving up on life... Very footsore with hardly any hoof and pretty messy/cut in the heel areas on the back feet - he was being hacked out on the road like that - not to mention the extensive rain rot etc... :mad:

I don't think he'd last more than a day or two in the turnout though without something on his feet... It literally is the side of a mountain and a very natural, rugged environment...

beeswax said:
Remember you cant turn out with boots,
<snip>
i dont think in his current state his feet will last in your field as they are too soft and shoes will just be ripped off because your field is not level, food for thought but good luck, going barefoot is brilliant though.
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Ah...that would be a problem then regarding the boots... He box walks like a lunatic if he's in the stable too long and can't abide being in on his own...

It sounds as if it would be quite reasonable to try another farrier so I'll try and book this other chap to come out in a few weeks and not feel guilty with doing it... :)
 
I am by no means an evangelist but with our TB who had crumbly feet taking his shoes off did help immensely. The minute you haven't got nails continually damaging the walls they can grow back. All the while you keep trying to put shoes back on, it's just crumbling them further. There are some horses that just can't cope with being shod and you have to look for alternative foot protection.

Shoeing wise, the farrier could either try and shoe so the shoes would stay on, but then when they inevitably fell off a couple of weeks later they would take half the foot with them, or he could shoe conservatively and they would fall off like a knife through butter sometimes within hours of them being fitted. It was the farrier and vet who both said to stop shoeing him in the end - the shoes weren't staying on anyway so there was no point.

This was about 11 years ago, so hoof boots were only just evolving from the rubbish old style designs of yesteryear, but Joe was one of the first to try Old Macs when they came out. They were the making of him - he did a number of pleasure rides successfully which would have been unthinkable with his crumbly shod feet. Those feet got stronger and stronger till he didn't need the boots any more. He continued to ride sound until he was retired with liver failure. We lost him in September aged 25, and up till the day he died he still had a decent set of feet on him.

ps Look into easyboot glue-ons. We've been using these like shoes during the competition season with our grey arab - on for 3.5 weeks, off for a few days. They might do you for starters while the feet grow back.
 
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TigerTail said:
The shoes arent coming off because the field is unlevel (!) they are coming off because the hooves are compromised.

These are some tbs feet, she came to live with me back in may having never been able to keep shoes on for longer than 3 weeks at a time.

<snip pics>
The shoes came off and she was trimmed and then left for 12 weeks. She went out on the roads about 4 weeks into that 12, perfectly sound, has been sound throughout. Her feet are so much better now, the fronts are actually a pair! Owners are astonished they never believed she wouldnt be hopping lame as whenever she lost a shoe before she wouldnt put weight on that foot.

Just shows what problems shoeing is actually covering up ;)
Click to expand...

Thank you for the pics... His feet are no where near as long in the front as the ones your girl had in those... There's no splits just bits get knocked off the bottom constantly... Particularly along the curved outer sides of the rear feet...

I'll try and get some photos tomorrow :)
 
soloequestrian said:
Look up Pete Ramey on the web - he has an excellent website with lots of free articles to read and he has a nice way of explaining things.
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Thank you...I'll check him out this evening... :)

EstherYoung said:
I am by no means an evangelist but with our TB who had crumbly feet taking his shoes off did help immensely. The minute you haven't got nails continually damaging the walls they can grow back. All the while you keep trying to put shoes back on, it's just crumbling them further. There are some horses that just can't cope with being shod and you have to look for alternative foot protection.
<snip>
ps Look into easyboot glue-ons. We've been using these like shoes during the competition season with our grey arab - on for 3.5 weeks, off for a few days. They might do you for starters while the feet grow back.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry about Joe... They do become members of the family...

What you and TigerTail say makes perfect sense about the cycle of damaging the feet - and I'd be one very happy bunny if he could discard shoes forever...

I'm just not sure how to get him through the initial phase in the turnout where some of the terrain is just so rough... When this shoe was off the farmer let him go out in a resting field but it was only for three days and the mess him and the companion pony churned up in there was unreal - everywhere is so soft with the rain and mountain run off... Some chance and no chance of me being able to use that field on a more permanent basis whilst it's so wet... He is only four and very active and playful - bouncing around like an idiot trying to get any other horse around to play...

I'll look up the glue on boots too... Thank you... :)
 
OMG, the feet are awful, how did he manage to walk for his first three years before he was shod!
Get another farrier.
Feed the feet.
Exercise the horse.
Think about feet, dream about feet, learn about feet.
.....................................................................come over to the Dark Side.
 
You would not see him knocking/stepping on the inside of his hind feet unless you watched him moving for hours and possibly videoed it just in case you missed it, it would just happen at any time, you might find if you watched him walk away from you he crosses over behind or moves very close behind, but if you keep him in shoes you will need to get the farrier to make sure there is no lip on the inside of the hind shoes that could be stepped on.
I agree those feet in the pics are long and I also agree that by putting nails in you are always weakening the foot, hence the reason why the feet need to be kept short, then the shoes will/should stay on longer so you are not putting nails in so often and eventually might be able to go for 6 weeks before reshoeing.

If he was mine due to your field situation, I would keep him in shoes until the ground improves (not so wet say about April time) and assuming you are going to ride in the summer then I would take the shoes off (April time) and everyday doing a small bit of roadwork which will harden up the feet and not too much to make him sore and by next winter his foot problem should be sorted and then he will be able to handle the unlevel field barefoot.

I have been led to believe, but correct me if I am wrong, those easy glove glue on shoes actually make the feet soft because of the glueing and no air getting to the foot and they cannot be re-used once removed or you have to remove the glue left over which is a hell of a job and also when you remove them there is the chance some of the hoof wall may come away with them, only those who have experience with them would know.
 
I thought you could turn out with hoof boots on? I certainly used to be on a yard with someone who turned her footy mare out with boots on every day and it never seemed to cause her any problems?
 
I have been led to believe, but correct me if I am wrong, those easy glove glue on shoes actually make the feet soft because of the glueing and no air getting to the foot and they cannot be re-used once removed or you have to remove the glue left over which is a hell of a job and also when you remove them there is the chance some of the hoof wall may come away with them, only those who have experience with them would know.
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It's actually not too bad. Spud's feet haven't gone soft through using them and 2011 was his second season using them. As I say, we take them off a few days before the farrier is due and it gives the feet enough of a breather. As we're leaving them on, we also trim the very back of the boot back, so there is ventilation there.

We do re-use them. They stretch slightly with use, so we put them on the fronts first and then re-use them on the hinds. By the time they're on their second round (bearing in mind Spud does a fair bit of roadwork) he's generally started to go through them on the toe. Yes you do have to pick all the glue out before re-using them, but if you stick them on the radiator first it really dries the old glue out and then it comes out of the boot quite easily.

I've never had any hoof come away with the glue when getting the boot off the pone. We use the Vettec Superfast glue and then use an ordinary flat headed screwdriver to prise them off - there's a bit of a knack to it but once you've got it sussed it's easy.
 
Miss L Toe said:
OMG, the feet are awful, how did he manage to walk for his first three years before he was shod!
Get another farrier.
Feed the feet.
Exercise the horse.
Think about feet, dream about feet, learn about feet.
.....................................................................come over to the Dark Side.
Click to expand...

:D That did make me giggle Miss Toe... His history as I know it was birth to age 3 on his breeder's yard in Ireland... May-ish last year he came over for some pre race training which didn't go too well... Sold and promply dumped in a field for a year with no cover/care/worming etc even over winter and just taken out on the road for some hacks here and there... He was in a bad way top to toe when I got my hands on the poor blighter...

beeswax said:
You would not see him knocking/stepping on the inside of his hind feet unless you watched him moving for hours and possibly videoed it just in case you missed it,
<snip>
If he was mine due to your field situation, I would keep him in shoes until the ground improves (not so wet say about April time) and assuming you are going to ride in the summer then I would take the shoes off (April time) and everyday doing a small bit of roadwork which will harden up the feet and not too much to make him sore and by next winter his foot problem should be sorted and then he will be able to handle the unlevel field barefoot.
<snip>
Click to expand...

Glad it's not something obvious I'd missed... :D When he first came here his back feet were more outward facing and his back fetlocks very close - he's kinda straightened up though as he has improved and his bum/topline has pulled upwards... It's almost as if he's unfolded a bit... :p

I've just been looking at the glue on shoes - there is a none glue option with a velcro fastener around the coronet which looks quite nifty... I'm not sure I can see those lasting long though in the deep mud in some areas of the field at the moment but I like the idea for the future...

To get to the forest or other hacks around here we do need to use the road - which is quite 'lane like' rather than a real road...lol I like your idea of hanging on in there at the moment until the ground all dries up a bit then making a real effort to work on hardening his feet up... I'm very nervous of expecting too much of his feet or overdoing it given the state they were in when we first got him...
 
In order to improve his action, I suggest you stick to walking on the flat, and use the slow trot or canter uphill, in order to build up the inner thighs,
I used Westrop knee boots upside down to stop any contusion.
I have waited for three years before I have allowed my boy to trot fast. without collection.
Keep him going, they will be fine.
 
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Check the post "Threatening to bite/kick..." under Veterinary by Flintfootfilly. The 8th post refers to how the condition of tbs feet is affected by the hind gut. Very interesting reading.
 
You could look at hoofcasts too for initial turnout - you sort of bandage the bottom of the hoof and then water them and the go hard, like a plaster cast but possibly with a bit more movement. I've never had to try them but have heard that they can be really useful. I have a feeling the KC La Pierre bunch do a version of them too.
 
I'd take the shoes off and give them a chance to grow stronger (with correct diet), my TB is barefoot and we had a lovely 8mile hack today trotting on the long sections of roadwork. :)
 
Ladydragon said:
Hi All...

I'm hoping someone might be able to give me a few suggestions to proceed with our four yr old TB's horribly pathetic feet...

He's got very small feet and the hoof just seems to crumble with the slightest knock... The farrier family who shoe him are very popular locally but every time he's shod (cold as recommended because his feet are so bad and don't grow much), it's pretty much guaranteed he'll lose a back shoe within two to three weeks... So far we've been lucky with some pretty deep punctures and there's been no abscess develop but the time between losing a shoe and the farrier coming to replace one means he'll have taken chunks out of the hoof wall... He's horribly footsore within a day or two... He's not in proper work at the moment - just some schooling in the menage...

I've not had much from the farriers other than "He's just got bad feet and needs to be shod more regularly than most" although when the dad of the family saw him on one occasion he put lightweight shoes on the back feet and the whole set lasted a full six weeks... He's an older chap though and pretty much retired now so I can't have him out again... Since then, every set (still lightweight shoes on the back) has dropped one or both back shoes in two to three weeks...

He's fed Allan & Page with a Biotin supplement... The grazing and haylage is good quality with most horses (including our others) on the yard cheerfully barefoot... The same farrier trims them... I'm not very good with all things farrier related and awkward feet so am unsure if I should be expecting a bit more from them than the somewhat dismissive "He's just got bad feet" and the extra charges for the extra shoes... :o

I have spoken to another farrier who was recommended as he's got the extra qualifications for remedial work and master farrier... He's a bit more expensive but not much if I include the extra shoes each time going on at the moment... It was only a quick call but he recommended seaweed and sulpher and said he'd be very surprised if he wouldn't be able to help the horse's feet over time - I'm just not sure whether this situation is 'normal' with TBs?! I don't want to jump ship from a decent farrier family if what they are doing is good enough...

Any advice/opinions welcome... :)
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Well done for thinking about your horse's hooves.

First point - hoof quality is dictated by diet.
Too much sugar/starch and too little minerals. You may have thought the diet was tip top - but from the sounds of it, the quality of the hoof wall states otherwise.

Tb's do not have poor hooves for no reason - it is never their fault. It is a result of inappropriate diet and continous shoeing without a break. Tb's aren't genetically predisposed to poor hooves - they are often just very sensitive to diet yet still fed high energy feeds 'because they are TB's'. Chicken and egg.....

Seaweed as a supplement will only work if your grazing is low in iodine. Ditto for feeding sulfur.

You don't mention which Allen and Page feed?

Remedial farriery is often an expensive way to continue 'patching' things. A much cheaper and more reliable option is to allow the hooves to have a break from shoes (like they used to routinely, back in the good old days).

Please be aware that pathological hooves will also affect tendon, ligaments, joints, muscles, behaviour etc etc - NO foot NO horse indeed;)

It would be interesting to see pictures of your horse's hooves.
 
Miss L Toe said:
In order to improve his action, I suggest you stick to walking on the flat, and use the slow trot or canter uphill, in order to build up the inner thighs,
I used Westrop knee boots upside down to stop any contusion.
I have waited for three years before I have allowed my boy to trot fast. without collection.
Keep him going, they will be fine.
Click to expand...

Hmm...it's the welsh valleys... We have no real flat bits... :D

Once he had some meat on his bones he started going out on hacks and in the school just in walk... Up hill, down hill - just lots of walking and then some other schooling once he'd straightened up... Decent food and some worming and it's hard to believe it's the same horse looking at the photos... He's very responsive just a bit behind for a four year old which is understandable given his history...

Do you mean until he was three years old or three years after taking shoes off?

Tammytoo said:
Check the post "Threatening to bite/kick..." under Veterinary by Flintfootfilly. The 8th post refers to how the condition of tbs feet is affected by the hind gut. Very interesting reading.
Click to expand...

Thank you... I'll look it up... :)

soloequestrian said:
You could look at hoofcasts too for initial turnout - you sort of bandage the bottom of the hoof and then water them and the go hard, like a plaster cast but possibly with a bit more movement. I've never had to try them but have heard that they can be really useful. I have a feeling the KC La Pierre bunch do a version of them too.
Click to expand...

I will check those out too... If they're like a plaster cast are they more of a summer/dry weather option?

Clava said:
I'd take the shoes off and give them a chance to grow stronger (with correct diet), my TB is barefoot and we had a lovely 8mile hack today trotting on the long sections of roadwork. :)
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Sounds dreamy Clava... :) At the moment this boy is likely to file his feet off completely... I think Beeswax has a point about the combination of weather, terrain and time of year...
 
With regards to time of year, my TB - who lives out 24/7 - has far better hooves in the winter even though she is in the wet all the time. Obviously you can't just whizz out on an 8 mile hack, but it will come in time :)
 
Oberon said:
Well done for thinking about your horse's hooves.

First point - hoof quality is dictated by diet.
Too much sugar/starch and too little minerals. You may have thought the diet was tip top - but from the sounds of it, the quality of the hoof wall states otherwise.

Tb's do not have poor hooves for no reason - it is never their fault. It is a result of inappropriate diet and continous shoeing without a break. Tb's aren't genetically predisposed to poor hooves - they are often just very sensitive to diet yet still fed high energy feeds 'because they are TB's'. Chicken and egg.....

Seaweed as a supplement will only work if your grazing is low in iodine. Ditto for feeding sulfur.

You don't mention which Allen and Page feed?

Remedial farriery is often an expensive way to continue 'patching' things. A much cheaper and more reliable option is to allow the hooves to have a break from shoes (like they used to routinely, back in the good old days).

Please be aware that pathological hooves will also affect tendon, ligaments, joints, muscles, behaviour etc etc - NO foot NO horse indeed;)

It would be interesting to see pictures of your horse's hooves.
Click to expand...

Hi Oberon...

He's on 2:1 Calm & Condition to Fast Fibre... I'm not sure about the grazing aspect as there's been no tests run on the field - but the farrier is fairly local so maybe (I've no real idea) his suggestion was as much to do with area as a 'one supplement' cures all approach... Not sure...

In all fairness, all the horses on the yard appear very healthy and all are on the same field... 14 horses, 23 or so acres... We got him in May and he did go into a sheep pasture initially as he was in such poor condition - the grass was even more lush and he'd not have coped going into the herd... Two months and he was booted out into the main turnout and has continued to steadily improved in condition...

His feet are better than when he arrived - they weren't far off the bone... Just not good I guess... Maybe if he'd gone into boots rather than shoes it would have helped... Hindsight though... :o I didn't know they existed and no one on the yard or the farrier suggested them...

They were so bad when he arrived I'm a bit worried that normal turnout without shoes will put him straight back there - and I'm not sure boots would survive some areas of the field with the mud etc at the moment...
 
He will not file his feet off! You will however have to accept that sometimes barefoot horses feet dont look pretty, pretty does not however always equal functional! At the moment youve got aesthetically pretty feet cos theyre covered by shoes - but the horse is clearly telling you that they are not functioning.

TBs have the same hindgut every other horse has - to say that tb's have crappy feet is just an excuse owners use to validate why their horses have poor feet because they simply do not know another way of doing things.

There is no point in continuing as you have been doing thats the definition of insanity!

''doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results'' Einstein
 
The nice thing for BF horses in winter is the soft ground - if you can feed for a healthy immune system and keep infection at bay.

The hooves sink into the mud with every step and it cushions the hoof and supports it just like wearing boots and pads.

Added to the lower levels of sugar in grass (except for frosty weather) - you get the ideal time to pull shoes.
 
PeterNatt said:
I would try a suppliment called Formula4Feet which I have found to be very good.
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Looking at the ingredients I wouldnt bother - waste of money.

Formula4 Feet
Ingredients
25-40% Lucerne meal, 10-24.99% Minerals and Vitamins, Dried yeast (non-viable), <10% Beans, Soya Concentrate GMF, Toasted Soya Beans GMF, Vegetable Fat, Apple Flavour, Antioxidant E321.


OP listen to Oberon - font of wisdom!
 
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